Leaders we don't want.

[Traitorfish]

Using the broad Celts, which is what Civ4 used, which would include Gauls.

Well, yes and no; Civ 4- and all Civ games so far- used a far narrower definition of "Celt" than that which I propose, essentially equivalent to "Gaul", albeit with grudging concessions to the Ancient Britons in 4, but no recognition for the post-Roman Celtic peoples in either. And, to be fair, yes, this definition does rather scream out for Vercingetorix, but only because it is so narrow as to present but a handful of options, almost all determined by their roles in dealing with a particular foreign power. One may as well chose to define "German" as referring exclusively to the Ancient Germanic tribes and then point to Arminnius as the obvious leader.

*Ugh* Please no American bashing. They definitely belong in the game.

My paternal grandfather was American, I have many American friends including some American soldiers and I live 5 minutes from the US border.

I would like to see Canada in the game in maybe the second expansion pack but I'd understand if they are left out.

I must say, "Assertion-Irrelevant Waffle-Changing the Topic" is a novel way to present an argument.

I've come to have an intense dislike for overt nationalism so I hope people on this forum will remain reasonable and I think most are for that matter.

Then why encourage it by continuing to equate "civilisation" with "nation-state"?

 

[The Almighty dF]

*Ugh* Please no American bashing. They definitely belong in the game.

My paternal grandfather was American, I have many American friends including some American soldiers and I live 5 minutes from the US border.

I would like to see Canada in the game in maybe the second expansion pack but I'd understand if they are left out.

Countries like Hungary, Austria, Vietnam, Thailand and Poland all should be represented.

I've come to have an intense dislike for overt nationalism so I hope people on this forum will remain reasonable and I think most are for that matter.

Honestly, I also want Canada in with an expansion.
To all non-Canadians, imagine this:
Conquering the world with Canada.
Wiping out an enemy nation with Canada.
Nuking someone with Canada.

If you didn't smile once while imagining that, you have no soul.
No offense to Canadians, I know a good bit about Canadian history, it's just... the image is still funny to me, I guess.

 

[Churchill's Hat]

Plus, imagine how much fun Neal would have rolling over Canada with Washington.

 

[Thormodr]

Well, yes and no; Civ 4- and all Civ games so far- used a far narrower definition of "Celt" than that which I propose, essentially equivalent to "Gaul", albeit with grudging concessions to the Ancient Britons in 4, but no recognition for the post-Roman Celtic peoples in either. And, to be fair, yes, this definition does rather scream out for Vercingetorix, but only because it is so narrow as to present but a handful of options, almost all determined by their roles in dealing with a particular foreign power. One may as well chose to define "German" as referring exclusively to the Ancient Germanic tribes and then point to Arminnius as the obvious leader.


I must say, "Assertion-Irrelevant Waffle-Changing the Topic" is a novel way to present an argument.


Then why encourage it by continuing to equate "civilisation" with "nation-state"?

I wasn't trying to change the topic. I was merely addressing a general malaise I have seen on these boards lately.

I do hope the Celts make a return. I always enjoyed playing them.

Civilization and Nation State. Who cares? I sure don't.

I guess you could argue that France (Land of the Franks) doesn't belong in the game because the Franks were a Germanic tribe.
The Americans were once English.

Is there a time limit that has to pass or something before you become a distinct people?

It seems to me that there are some people on here that flat out just don't like America and are taking the opportunity to bash them. The Americans are as much a civilization as the French.

 

[Thormodr]

Honestly, I also want Canada in with an expansion.
To all non-Canadians, imagine this:
Conquering the world with Canada.
Wiping out an enemy nation with Canada.
Nuking someone with Canada.

If you didn't smile once while imagining that, you have no soul.
No offense to Canadians, I know a good bit about Canadian history, it's just... the image is still funny to me, I guess.

No offense taken. I prefer a humble, unassuming Canada. Not the brash "Own the Podium!" and "It's our game!" Olympic style. *Ugh*

An aggressive Canada beating up other nations would be very funny to see in game. Just like Ghandi laying down the beats.

 

[Pangur Bán]

*Ugh* Please no American bashing. They definitely belong in the game.

My paternal grandfather was American, I have many American friends including some American soldiers and I live 5 minutes from the US border.

I would like to see Canada in the game in maybe the second expansion pack but I'd understand if they are left out.

Countries like Hungary, Austria, Vietnam, Thailand and Poland all should be represented.

I've come to have an intense dislike for overt nationalism so I hope people on this forum will remain reasonable and I think most are for that matter.

Countries should not be in the game just because they are independent political entities in the 21st century. Civilizations should. Canadians are essentially Americans. Add Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and such cities to the American city-list and that's the way Canada should be in.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Countries should not be in the game just because they are independent political entities in the 21st century. Civilizations should. Canadians are essentially Americans. Add Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and such cities to the American city-list and that's the way Canada should be in.

Oh you.

 

[Thormodr]

Countries should not be in the game just because they are independent political entities in the 21st century. Civilizations should. Canadians are essentially Americans. Add Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and such cities to the American city-list and that's the way Canada should be in.

Canadians most certainly are not Americans.

Just because we share the longest unguarded border in the world doesn't mean Canada and the USA are one country.

Great allies and great trading partners but two distinct peoples.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Canadians most certainly are not Americans.

Just because we share the longest unguarded border in the world doesn't mean Canada and the USA are one country.

Great allies and great trading partners but two distinct peoples.

This is like claiming San Marinese are not Italians. It's a social "truth" useful for the modern political set-up, but nonsense in all other terms. And while it is possible to say Canadians are not part of the US state, which is true just now, they are a peripheral part of American civilization.

The only reason you divide the people north of Mexico into "Americans" and "Canadians", is because some got independence from the English motherland a century or so before the others. If you wanna believe people in Seattle are more like Alabamans than people from Vancouver, it's your delusion, but there has never been such a boundary of the kind meaningful to the kind of macro history used for Civ games.

 

[Thormodr]

This is like claiming San Marinese are not Italians. It's a social "truth" useful for the modern political set-up, but nonsense in all other terms. And while it is possible to say Canadians are not part of the US state, which is true just now, they are a peripheral part of American civilization.

The only reason you divide the people north of Mexico into "Americans" and "Canadians", is because some got independence from the English motherland a century or so before the others. If you wanna believe people in Seattle are more like Alabamans than people from Vancouver, it's your delusion, but there has never been such a boundary of the kind meaningful to the kind of macro history used for Civ games.

That is a big steaming pile of something.

For example, America has a very large Spanish speaking population. Yet they have only one official language. Canada has a very large French speaking population and have two official languages.

Canada and the USA have quite different political systems and governments even though they are both Democracies.

The Queen of England is still the head of state in Canada while the Americans went in a totally different direction.

The United States promotes a melting pot ideology whereas Canada strives to promote cultural diversity.

Canada is in the process (and it's taking a very long time) of finally granting Aboriginal people self government. Not likely to happen in the USA any time soon.

Although Canada and the USA have much in common, we are very different in many ways. Lumping the two countries together is ridiculous.

 

[The Almighty dF]

That is a big steaming pile of something.

For example, America has a very large Spanish speaking population. Yet they have only one official language. Canada has a very large French speaking population and have two official languages.

Canada and the USA have quite different political systems and governments even though they are both Democracies.

The Queen of England is still the head of state in Canada while the Americans went in a totally different direction.

The United States promotes a melting pot ideology whereas Canada strives to promote cultural diversity.

Canada is in the process (and it's taking a very long time) of finally granting Aboriginal people self government. Not likely to happen in the USA any time soon.

Although Canada and the USA have much in common, we are very different in many ways. Lumping the two countries together is ridiculous.

In short: Ignore Calgacus.
He's been doing this the entire thread. He's just trying to goad people into ******** fights.

 

[Thormodr]

In short: Ignore Calgacus.
He's been doing this the entire thread. He's just trying to goad people into ******** fights.

Will do. Thanks.

 

[Pangur Bán]

@ Thormodr, I'm afraid that, no matter how much Canadian identity means to you, none of your irrelevant points change the fact that Canadians and US Americans are the same people. And in contrast to the claims of "Almighty dF" (himself bringing resentment from somewhere else), I've no interest in arguing with a patriotic Canadian about this, as the chances of you coming round to a neutral perspective are minimal to non-existent.

But I do have to register my objections to suggestions like Canada ... states DO NOT EQUAL civilizations.

 

[Thormodr]

Are you sure you want to add calgacus to your ignore list? Y/N

Y. Much better.

 

[Traitorfish]

I wasn't trying to change the topic. I was merely addressing a general malaise I have seen on these boards lately.

Well, you certainly didn't follow up your initial assertion. "Ugh" isn't the most compelling argument I've ever heard for a civs inclusion.

Civilization and Nation State. Who cares? I sure don't.

Well, there you go. If we can't establish a consensus on something that basic, we may stumble a bit.

@ Thormodr, I'm afraid that, no matter how much Canadian identity means to you, none of your irrelevant points change the fact that Canadians and US Americans are the same people. And in contrast to the claims of "Almighty dF" (himself bringing resentment from somewhere else), I've no interest in arguing with a patriotic Canadian about this, as the chances of you coming round to a neutral perspective are minimal to non-existent.

True. Incidentally, the Irish are actually British, the Belgians are actually French, the Portuguese are Spanish, the Croats are definitely Serb, the Sri Lankans are Indian, the Columbians Bolivian and the Slovaks Czech. Plus, all those titchy little countries in Central America? Mexican.

 

[Pangur Bán]

@ Traitorfish, there are very crucial differences between most of your straw men and what I actually said.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, go on then. What are they?

 

[Pangur Bán]

I'm not your teacher or tutor, Traitorfish.

 

[Traitorfish]

That is not an effective counter-point.

 

[Arakhor]

Technically speaking of course, the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is not the Queen of Australia or Canada or St. Kitts & Nevis etc. Queen Elizabeth II happens to hold all those roles simultaneously and separately.