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Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - World 2009 Mod' started by NikNaks, May 19, 2008.

  1. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    At this point this is the leaders/traits we have:

    Please no arguments about mapped countries in this thread. Use the Map development thread. Only issues with the leaders used to represent.

    Spoiler :
    West: 7
    USA - Barack Obama - CHM/EXP
    Canada - Stephen Harper - FIN/ORG
    Mexico - Felipe Calderon - CHM/SPI
    Brazil - Lula da silva - SPI/CRE
    Argentina - Cristina Kirchner - SPI/PRO
    Peru - Alan Garica - PHI/PRO
    Chile - Michelle Bachelet - ORG/EXP
    Colombia - Alvaro Uribe - ORG/IND

    Bolivarian Alliance: 1 - Hugo Chavez - IMP/SPI
    Venezuela
    Ecuador
    Bolivia
    Cuba
    Honduras
    Dominican Republic

    Europe: 10
    UK - Gordon Brown - FIN/PRO
    Spain - Jose Zapatero - EXP/CRE
    France - Nicolas Sarkozy - CHA/PRO
    Germany - Angela Merkel - FIN/IND
    Poland - Donald Tusk - EXP/PRO
    Italy - Silvio Berlusconi - CHA/FIN
    Sweden - Fredrik Reinfeldt - FIN/ORG
    Turkey - Recep Erdogan - PRO/IND
    Ukraine - Yulia Tymoshenko - PRO/IMP
    Switzerland - Hans Merz - ind/fin

    European Union: 1 - Peter Balkenende - EXP/ORG
    Belgium
    Netherlands
    Ireland
    Portugal
    Greece
    Bulgaria
    Romania
    Czech Rep.
    Austria
    Hungary
    Finland
    Norway
    Iceland
    Denmark
    Estonia
    Latvia
    Lithuania

    Mediterranean Union: 1 - Stipe Mesic CHM/ORG
    Croatia
    Albania
    Serbia

    N Africa: 4
    Libya - Muammar al-Gaddafi - AGG/SPI
    Egypt - Hosni Mubarak - PRO/CRE
    Morocco - Abbas el Fassi - PRO/PHI
    Algeria - Abdelaziz Bouteflika - SPI/PHI

    Africa East/Central/West Alliances: 3
    West: 1 - Umaru Yar Adua - FIN/PRO
    Sierra leone
    Liberia
    Cameroon
    Togo
    Nigeria
    Central: 1 - Jose dos Santos - IMP/EXP
    Mali
    Niger
    Zambia
    Angola
    Senegal
    East: 1 - Meles Zenawi - EXP/AGG
    Tanzania
    Mozambique
    Ethiopia
    namibia

    South Africa: 1
    South Africa - Jacob Zuma - ORG/CHM


    Middle East: 4
    Saudi Arabia - King Abdullah - FIN/PHI
    Syria - Bashar al Assad - SPI/IMP
    Israel - Benjamin Netanjahu - PRO/EXP
    Iran - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - AGG/IMP

    Central Asia: 2
    Russia - Belarus - Vladimir Putin - IMP/FIN
    CACO: - Kassym Tokayev - ORG/PHI - Tajikistan - Kazakhstan - Kyrgyzstan - Turkmenistan -Uzbekistan

    West/South Asia: 2
    Pakistan - Asif Zardari - AGG/SPI
    India - Manmohan Singh - FIN/SPI

    SouthEast Asia: 4
    China: 1 - Wen Jiabao - FIN/IMP
    Thailand: 1 - Bhumibol Adulyadej - IND/CRE
    Indonesia: 1 - Susilo Yudhoyono - EXP/ORG
    ASEAN: 1 - S.R. Nathan - FIN/ORG
    Vietnam
    Philippines
    Malaysia
    Singapore

    East Asia: 3
    N Korea - Kim Yong Il - AGG/IMP
    S Korea - Lee Myung Bak - FIN/IND
    Japan - Taro Aso - ORG/IND

    Australia/Oceania: 1
    Australia - Kevin Rudd - CHM/CRE
     
  2. Powerslave

    Powerslave Chieftain

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    I truly hope that this list is not final.

    Why is Barack Obama listed as Charismatic and Expansive? That seems silly to me. Charismatic and Philosophical fits much, much better. Even Cha/Org or Cha/Imp would be better than Expansive, of all things. If you're trying to reference his health care plan (with the +2 health bonus), that's silly. Reflect that in his favorite civic choice, not his bonuses.

    Chavez as Imp/Spi? Bizarre. Imp/Cha, Imp/Phi, or Cha/Phi make much, much more sense. Chavez is not spiritual, but he is deeply committed to his political ideology. He's wildly popular and actively cultivates an image that appeals to the poor. That sounds charismatic. I understand the Imperialistic trait, thanks to a previous discussion, but I don't think it fits nearly as well as Cha/Phi.

    Harper seems okay. I'm not 100% on Financial, but I like Organized a lot.

    Why is Putin Financial? He doesn't strike me as particularly Financial. Maybe Imp/Cha or Imp/Agg.

    Netanyahu is good, but Imp/Exp works very well for him, too. In fact, I'd argue more for Imp/Exp, personally.

    Kevin Rudd is clearly Organized. I don't see where you're getting Cha/Cre. I don't see a clear second trait for him, but I suppose Cha/Org or Cre/Org could work. Does anyone else have any input on this?

    Some of these trait choices smack of Western bias, but that's okay... as long as we realize and acknowledge it. For example, the only Agg or Imp nations on the list are Eastern European, Middle Eastern, and Far Eastern. That's a very simplistic and narrow viewpoint. However, I'm certainly willing to play along and make Putin, Castro, Musharrif, and Ahmadinejad the eeeeevil warmongers, and Obama, Rudd, and Harper the peaceful builders. Let's just admit to ourselves that we are biased.
     
  3. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    I'm using these based on, more or less, the nation's ideologies, not the leaders themselves. Leaders are generally elected to represent the nation's ideas. More realistic for me would be making the USA Aggressive/Expansive. And no...Obama has no say in this. He is run by the Military Industrial Complex...who has the real say regardless of what liberal or conservative will say one way or the other. I am a political atheist (unless you consider Anarcho-Capitalism a realistic vision for the future), so I'm pretty much down the line of not caring about our system in this country.

    The USA is the most expansive country in the world right now. (If I was basing his Health Care plan as being expansive, I would give it -3 health). We are involved in 2 different wars in the name of spreading our "ideologies," (freedom!...since we are one of the least free countries in the world, after all - with the highest % of citizens in a prison) as well as being involved in nearly every major military coup in the last 50-75 years.

    Russia is FIN because, going forward, they are a global energy superpower. Not to mention he was put into power through the financial elite in Russia.

    I'm about as objective as I believe I can be. I am NOT an "America First!!!" idiot. The USA has become the exact kind of joke a republic becomes as it grows too big for it's own good. We crumble under a false "democracy" in which 51% of people get to tell 49% of people what to do - where America was founded as being a country that stood up for the 49%. But...such is what happens to Republics that grow too large.

    Iran is labeled as such because of their political ideology. Nearly every mosque in Iran has "Death to Israel" publically showcased.

    Rudd was a misprint by me as I was copy-pasting. He is ORG/CHM in the XML.

    Pakistan is labeled aggressive because of their "nationhood" type belief system.

    Kim Yong-Il has led a country into having a smaller GDP than the USA's state of Delaware with his economic & political ideology of a perpetual military state. Hence, AGG/IMP.

    China gets IMP over their feud with claiming Taiwan.
     
  4. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    Still waiting on leaderhead & flag art before any next steps can be taken.
     
  5. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Chieftain

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    Matty,

    I've offered to do your leaderheads but have had no firm response from you.

    If you want me to do them please let me know with your final civ list and i'm sure i can turn them round in 1-2 days.
     
  6. NikNaks

    NikNaks Chieftain

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    The flags are all done, and I'm uploading them now. For now, as I've said dozens of times, just use pre-existing XML + art as placeholders. It won't matter if we have an army of Alexander the Greats for testing purposes.

    Adhesive, I think the list of civs on the penultimate page of the Final Civ List thread has the leaders included, so create ones for the civs that overlap with the list on the final page, and ignore ones that have been removed. Hope that makes sense. A useful tutorial for creating the images is here (just follow the instructions about the LH picture and ignore the rest).

    EDIT: Just remembered that I don't have a graphic for the Minor Nations. Anyone have any ideas?
     
  7. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    I say either the Minor State Flag have the flag of the Minor states from RFC, A generic Grey Flag, or a Flag made of bits and pieces of all or the more important Minor states (like the combined countries in RTW).
     
  8. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    Updated: Monday, 12:30PM Central Standard Time USA

    For the Leader Traits, I'm thinking of doing it more like this:

    Instead of individual leader traits, we should have a "country ideology" as the traits.

    For example:
    As I said above, a leader is selected by the people of the nation. But in today's world, a leader really doesn't have the "full-fledged impact" that the media makes them out to have. The best example is definitely the United States. Barack Obama, to the world and in the USA, is seen as someone who wants diplomacy over war, and is a very charismatic person. But, the fact is that he just sent another 30,000 troops to the Middle East. What a leader says, and what the "country" dictates are two very different things. In the USA, as in most of the world, the real power is behind the scenes. Obama came to power saying we'd be out of Iraq asap. Now, its going to last beyond his first 4 years - while we built a military base larger than the vatican - so, in essence - the USA is never leaving the Middle East unless financially forced to do so (a la the Soviet Union).

    With that said, normally - you'd use something like "Charismatic/another trait" for Obama...but the USA acts in very different ways. The USA, easily, is the most expansive, imperialistic country of today's world - attempting to "spread" its' ideology throughout the world & by war if necessary. So that would be either: AGG/EXP, AGG/IMP, or IMP/EXP.

    Now, with that, some of you are from all over the world...and you know your own country and the way it "really" operates better than those who live outside it (in most cases) as well as knowing the area of your part of the world better. Who am I to argue with IanInsane who I believe is from Germany...or to argue with Adhesive from UK about what their countries are really like, and what agendas their countries operate under despite the veil of the USA's mainstream media? Just like Obama appears to be the "savior" to many in the world and in the USA because of the media, but his actions speak louder than words thus far. So, using the full civ list found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8412422&postcount=132 . Lets try to come up with "nation traits" instead of "leader traits." That would lead to a more accurate game for us to play.

    NOTE: I will continuously edit this post with updated leader traits (feel free to comment on your thoughts/ideas for "national traits."

    Spoiler :

    ****THESE ARE OPEN TO DEBATE, just FYI****

    West:
    USA: AGG/IMP
    Bolivarian Alliance: IMP/FIN (based on Venezuela's oil dealings & alliances)
    Mexico: EXP/CHA
    Brazil:
    Chile:
    Argentina:
    Canada: ORG/FIN
    Peru:

    Europe:
    European Union: ORG/CRE
    UK: FIN/PRO
    Spain: FIN/CRE
    France: PRO/CRE
    Germany: IND/PHI
    Poland: PRO/PHI
    Italy: CRE/CHA
    Balkan States: ??
    Ukraine: PRO/IND
    Belarus: ??
    Sweden: FIN/PHI
    EFTA: FIN/PRO
    Turkey: ??

    Africa:
    Libya: ??
    Algeria & Tunisia: ??
    South Africa: ??
    Morocco: ??
    Egypt: FIN (free market of the Middle East)/??
    3 African Alliances: ??

    Middle East:
    Saudi Arabia: FIN/SPI
    Israel: PRO/EXP
    Iran: SPI/AGG
    Syria: ORG/PRO
    Palestine: PRO/EXP

    South & West Asia:
    Pakistan: SPI/AGG
    India: IND/EXP
    Causcasus Union: AGG/PRO

    Central Asia:
    Russia: PRO/FIN
    CACO: PRO/??

    East Asia:
    China: IMP/FIN
    Japan: IND/ORG
    North Korea: AGG/IMP
    South Korea: FIN/IND
    Indonesia: ??
    Thailand: ??
    ASEAN: FIN/ORG
    Vietnam: ??

    Australia: EXP/ORG
     
  9. civ editor11

    civ editor11 Ruler

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    America should be IMP/EXP that aren't that agressive compared to the other nations of the world
     
  10. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    **So its not missed, please be sure to read this post ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8412933&postcount=168 )and comment**

    I would say that the USA is the most aggressive in the current world, by far. We pre-emptive attack countries with reckless abandon. We are involved in 2 wars (approaching a 3rd) that WE started with no possibility of leaving the wars behind anytime soon. How can others be "more aggressive" than that? We attack the "aggressive" countries in the name of providing security to our citizens...when our attacking and getting involved has directly lead to our country being exponentially more vulnerable to attacks and hatred. By every mean, the USA is the aggressor of the world as of 2009, and contrary to what the world may think - its only getting started. When a country seizes "empire" status, which the USA has had since the mid 1940s - they never let it go easily. And the USA is starting to crumble under its own weight of debt and entitlements. Until we fall financially/crumble under own our weight due to attempting to continue the welfare/warfar state like the USSR, the USA will continue to be the aggressor of the world under the veil of "ensuring freedom."
     
  11. NikNaks

    NikNaks Chieftain

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    I'm happy to make an amalgamation where it seems necessary. Look at the Caucasus flag:


    However, there seem to be rather too many for that to work. Do you have a screenshot of Rhye's?

    And RE: the America thing, Mattygerst is completely correct about it being the aggressor. Let's just leave it at that. I'd be inclined to go with IMP/AGG

    For the UK, I'd say we were probably FIN/IMP, FIN/ORG or something with FIN at least. Before the banking crisis, we've always been known for our financial institutions, and will again once we're out of recession. For the others, I'll have to think about most of them, but here's a few:

    EU: PRO/FIN - common currency and various legislation designed to protect Europe's interests within Europe
    Israel + Palestine: SPI over EXP - that's one of the main causes of the fighting after all
    Germany: IND/PRO ? - I hear they're pretty efficient workers, but that's probably a stereotype
     
  12. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Chieftain

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    Russia: Financial, yes. Imperial no. Russia's miltary ambition has dwindled (as you ahve allayed to previously) and whilst Putin has no doubt injectied a bit more 'pride' for want of a better word I would think that their motives are more suited to 'protective' than 'imperial'. I see Russia as more concerned about their security than in search of a new empire. So Rus= Pro, Fin

    Australia: Must be expansionist as they are basically actively attracting people to expland their population given their low population density. As for their other trait, I have no strong opinion, but only organized, financial or protective would make sense. The others are pretty definite no nos. My vote is Aus = Exp Org

    UK: Must be financial as London is now the banking capital of the world. UK also is a prominent forerunner of free market capitalism. I would also say protective for two reasons: 1) We have remained the most Eurosceptic nation in the EU with the possible exception of Denmark and have been more fiercely protective of sovereignty on key issues compared to other large nations such as France, Germany, Italy. 2) The defensive bonus is representative of our excellent armed forces. So UK: Fin, Pro

    EU: Org and Cre The EU should not be protective, I disagree with Niknaks as by definition the EU nations have invested in trade and supra-nationalism ie they have given up much of their own sovereignty. Also, non of the nations in our EU civ really have much military presence and rely on the US really for protection. The EU is at most a 'civilian power'. Any military bonuses would be misplaced. I strongly suggest Org due to the scale economies of operating the union and Cre as many of the countries represented are very cultured, post empire, with long histories. So EU: Org, Cre

    Germany: I'll invite Ianinsane to comment, but can't be protective. The last 50-60 years Germany has been as close to pacifism in Europe as you can get with the possible exception of Switzerland and Ireland. Ps Please see earlier posts for suggestions of European countries Germany and France. I'll copy and paste when i find it. EDIT: Agree @Ianinsane with Industrious, Philosophical

    France: As per my earlier post, recommend: Pro, Cre as the French are ultimately one of the most protectionist western nations in terms of culture, economy and military for years now, so pro is very sensible. Of course, France is one of the most cultured nations on the planet, so Cre is vital.

    Italy: Charasmatic, Creative. Italian's are known as nationally very charasmatic, basically so this is simple. I had Berlusconi down as Financial, but creative is perhaps a better national trait. So, Italy: Char, Cre

    Spain: A less confident opinion here, but as you're asking for one i've done a bit more research. I believe Financial holds water due to the large amount of successful multinationals e.g. car producers, telecommunications and banks. Crucially, the fact that Spanish car producers do not so much gain their advantage through domestic production and exports as through broader global operation has me favour finance over industrial (also Financial Services). The prevalence of Spanish culture worldwide and the importance it is held in at home, means that like many of her mediterranean neighbours I recomment creative as the second trait. So Spain= Fin, Cre

    Sweden: Organised due to nature of economy and socialist state. (Sweden has a fantastic healthcare system for instance). Philosophical seems perhaps the next best trait as military ones must be ruled out due to Sweden's peaceful and neutral foreign policy, as must anything which denote nationalist or imperial ambition. Sweden's status as a small (in terms of population), peaceful ageing country means that philosophical makes alot of sense. So Sweden: Org, Phi

    Poland: Must be Protective, as very preoccupied with perceived threat of renewed Russian aggression, and are actively seeking US help to upgrade their armed forces with both training and the whole 'Son of Star Wars' episode. I also think Philosophical would fit well, for simliar reasons as I recommend creative for EU, also compared to their in game size they do produce above their fair share of 'great' people. Another option would be spiritual as Poland is a very Catholic country. So Poland: Pro, Phi

    Ukraine: Protective, like Poland in respone to Russia. Although it should be noted that Ukrainian attitudes to Russia are significantly more positive than vice versa. As a second trait i recommend Industrious, due to Ukraine being still having a large precentage of GDP contributed by manufacturing (although this is decreasing steadily) from real highs last century. Also, Ukraine has massive mineral deposits. If Ianinsane or anyone else has a strong informed opinion I'm open to change but this is my relitively informed opinion ;) So Ukraine= Pro, Ind

    Pakistan: I agree with Matty. (although it is important that we don't let political thoughts cloud our perception of whether nations are agg, or rather 'pro', if we happen to agree with them!) So Pakistan= Spi, Agg

    India: Industrial yes. But whilst their economy is growing, India is not a financial powerhouse like Japan, Germany, UK, insomuch as its GDP per capita is very low. India is underperforming in terms of her size and is a 'third world country' (4x population of USA). I would categorise India therefore as expansionist (the health bonus is useful too) as her population is massive and along with some economic improvements this means elevated status, but this is not because of a finance based economy in the manner of the other countries I mentioned. So India= Ind, Exp

    Israel & Palestine EDIT: Whilst standing by my logic, Ianinsane's idea is fine. So recommend BOTH= Pro, Exp

    Caucasus: I'm taking this as Georgia. Protective is given due to political situation. However, Saakashvili (Georgian President), did a very large amount of prodding of the Russian bear no matter what your thoughts on the conflict. Much of his politics has been confrontational to say the least and indeed there is little doubt that Georgia has been comparitively aggressive in not being at all shy to step up hostilities in response to Russian supported threats. I can dig out stuff to support this if needed. So Caucasus= Pro, Agg

    Syria: Before someone says spiritualism: No. Their constitution guarantees freedom of worship and they are not declared as a Muslim state. This is a tough one as I really don't know enough about it, but again i've done a bit of research. I recommend Organised in so far as the economy is dominated by the state, ie the government has more input into the organisation of the economy than most civs. Given continuing difficulties with Israel and much of the West (possibly thawing with Obama), I recommend Protective. So: Org, Pro

    Incidentally, yes I agree re USA too.

    I'll edit this post as I come up with more ideas.
     
  13. ianinsane

    ianinsane Chieftain

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    Concerning Germany I think Industrious is definately a good choice. The second one is more difficult. Since in Germany cultural tradition in terms of philosophy and humanities is highly valued (think of Luther, Hegel, Marx, Kant, Nietzsche, Benjamin, Adorno...) and big part of national self-perception I suggest Philosophical.
    Germany = Ind, Phi

    Concerning Israel and Palestine. I strongly suggest not to side design-wise with any of them in terms of who's the aggressor. We should stay neutral and give them both the same Agg or Pro traits. And I favor Pro for both of them.
    Israel = Exp, Pro

    Palestine should not be Spiritual. The PLO/Fatah, which still controls the West Bank and thus the majority of Palestine is an organization fighting for secularism and is nationalist, marxist/left-wing and NOT islamist. Of course the Hamas-controlled Gaza strip could be Spiritual. But since we have only one Palestine we cannot account for that. The religious/cultural/ethnic differences between Israel and Palestine are IMO represented adequately by those two civs having different Cultural Ideologies.
    But what should be the second trait then? Nothing really works except Expansive. This is due to the extreme population growth in Palestine which is as far as I know the largest in the world. So:
    Palestine = Exp, Pro, too. Isn't that a nice irony?
     
  14. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    You'll be happy to hear I just ripped an image out of RFC

    Spoiler :


    It's really just Scotland's flag, just Grey where it's Blue.

    Also, for Vietnam's leader, here are my traits.

    As one of the last Communist nations of the world, I think Imperialistic is a must (No, I'm not trying to be biased, but that's what I think). Also, as Vietnam was quickly able to quickly bounce back after 'Nam, maybe industrious or organized?
     
  15. Mattygerst

    Mattygerst Chieftain

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    List updated in post #168. Country trait suggestions still needed for:

    West:
    Brazil:
    Chile:
    Argentina:
    Peru:

    Europe:
    Balkan States: ??
    Belarus: ??
    Sweden: ??

    Africa:
    Libya: ??
    Algeria & Tunisia: ??
    South Africa: ??
    Morocco: ??
    Egypt: FIN (free market of the Middle East)/??
    3 African Alliances: ??

    Middle East:
    Syria: ??

    Central Asia:
    CACO: PRO/??

    East Asia:
    Indonesia: ??
    Thailand: ??
    Vietnam: ??

    Some thoughts that will be implemented if no other advice/recommendations are given.

    I really have no idea about the ones not listed. Inaninsane lives closest in prox. to a few in which I'm sure he has a better idea: Sweden, Balkan states. But I imagine Sweden is ORG along with a 2nd trait, obviously.

    As for the rest, it'll have to come down to a short amount of research I suppose. If anyone sees anything they know, though, please let your opinion be seen. Anyone know anything about the African civs better than an uniformed, media-created opinion that would be mine? Same goes with Syria. And then we have the conglomerate of far East Asia countries still do to. Thoughts? Getting these done is pretty important to me being able to finish the leaders in the XML with leaderheads/flags.

    I'm going to go ahead and give Mexico EXP/CHA - since they all seem to be coming into our country, illegally and at will here in the USA, haha. And charismatic for lack of a better trait and that Mexican people are very, very proud of their Mexican culture/heritage.
     
  16. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Chieftain

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    I'm updating in post 172. Will show the results here.

    Italy: Cha, Cre
    Spain: Fin, Cre
    Sweden: Org, Phi
    Caucasus: Pro, Agg
    Ukraine: Pro, Ind
    Syria: Org, Pro
     
  17. Quklis

    Quklis Chieftain

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    Sweden: ORG/PHI, very peaceful nation, at least don't give any military traits to it.
    EFTA: FIN + something, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are rich countries. Maybe PRO, as Norway and Switzerland have quite good armies and the terrain helps to defense too.
    Vietnam: Maybe PRO because of it's history, don't know about today's situation though.
     
  18. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    Well, for Vietnam I already said Imperalistic and either Poductive or Industrious. Now that I think of it, though, productive is the better choice. So I say IMP/PRO. I think EFTA should be FIN/IND (Just like the once Swizterland civ) and use Switzerland's leader so we don't have to do more work.
     
  19. Adhesive86

    Adhesive86 Chieftain

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    You mean, 'Protective', right?
     
  20. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    Productive isn't a trait?

    I always thought it was, but it isn't. Well, I guess Imperalistic/Protective would work.
     

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