Left and right: Berlusconi must stand up to Bush and defend Italy's "honour"

[Uiler]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...st07.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/07/ixworld.html

Berlusconi told to face up to US over shooting
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
(Filed: 07/03/2005)

Politicians of all parties denounced prime minister Silvio Berlusconi's dealings with America yesterday after an Italian hostage negotiator was killed and a journalist wounded by US forces in Iraq.

An American patrol opened fire on the car carrying Giuliana Sgrena to the airport near Baghdad, turning what should have been the joyous end of her month-long kidnapping into a tragedy.

Mrs Sgrena, 56, was wounded in the shoulder but survived. Nicola Calipari, 51, the Italian agent who had helped secure her release, died in a hail of bullets, as he threw himself over her to protect her.

At least 10,000 people filed past Mr Calipari's body as it lay in state in Rome yesterday and politicians called on Mr Berlusconi to set aside his pro-American stance and take a hard line with his ally, President George W Bush.

Romano Prodi, the opposition leader, said he hoped the government would know "how to get to the bottom of the truth". He added: "All of us, 57 million Italians, have a right to know what happened."

Oliviero Diliberto, the head of the Communist party, which is in the main Left-wing bloc led by Mr Prodi, said: "I don't believe a word of the American version. The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the centre-Left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops."

From within Mr Berlusconi's centre-Right coalition, Gianni Alemanno, the agriculture minister, spoke out, saying: "Italy must defend its honour.

"We may be trusted allies, but we cannot give the impression of being subordinate."

Bobo Craxi, an ally, and the son of the late premier Bettino Craxi, attacked Mr Berlusconi's "subordinacy" to the US.

He demanded that he stand up to Mr Bush, "even to the point of risking a break in relations", as his father had done to President Reagan in 1985, when he refused to hand over Palestinian terrorists to America.

Other loyalists voiced support for Mr Berlusconi. "The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy in Iraq," said Maurizio Gasparri, the communications minister.

Meanwhile the Left-wing Il Manifesto daily, for which Mrs Sgrena works and which is strongly opposed to the occupation of Iraq, quickly sold out of all its editions yesterday.

On its front page, an article dictated from her hospital bed in Rome claimed the Americans may have targeted her because of US opposition to Italy's policy of dealing with kidnappers.

Italian government sources said a large ransom was almost certainly paid.

I'm beginning to suspect that an apology is not going to suffice. Currently the official Italian government investigation is treating the shooting as a murder case.

 

[JohnRM]

[sarcasm]I'm sure that most of this outrage is not driven by politics.[/sarcasm]

 

[MarineCorps]

What do they want us to do? Make the soldiers scrape goats? Playing to the crowd is all they are doing.

 

[BasketCase]

An apology hardly ever suffices. There's an investigation, an explanation which satisfies nobody, then after the newspapers move on to other things, everybody gives up on the issue. That's how it always happens.

What happened is a few American soldiers either got edgy or went bad-apple and shot somebody. It's not really about "finding the truth" at all. It's about this:

"We may be trusted allies, but we cannot give the impression of being subordinate."

It isn't about truth, it's about pride.

 

[Uiler]

[sarcasm]I'm sure that most of this outrage is not driven by politics.[/sarcasm]

I'm sure most of it is. However, members of Bersculoni's own party, including his own ministers, and parliamentry allies have come out saying that they don't believe what the Americans are saying and insisting that Italy is not "subordinate" to the US. The left are the ones making the strongest statements. However the right is also saying that they believe the Americans are lying. They're just not taking it to the next step and making accusations. In fact the "honour" statement comes from one of the PM's allies, not from the left. I think there is something more going on in Italy than politics.

 

[Aegis]

Oliviero Diliberto, the head of the Communist party, which is in the main Left-wing bloc led by Mr Prodi, said: "I don't believe a word of the American version. The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the centre-Left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops."

What a steaming pile of crap.

 

[Red Threat]

I'ts not a matter of pride, it's a matter of freedom.

P.S. Although I don't like Diliberto, be sure that any western european communist party is far more democratic than the US republican party with those crazy neo-cons an those christian fundamentalists. American people usually don't know and don't understand the European politics, in their simply vision of the world, with their obsolete cold war glasses.

 

[zulu9812]

lol - nicely put, Red

 

[Stapel]

I'ts not a matter of pride, it's a matter of freedom.

P.S. Although I don't like Diliberto, be sure that any western european communist party is far more democratic than the US republican party with those crazy neo-cons an those christian fundamentalists. American people usually don't know and don't understand the European politics, in their simply vision of the world, with their obsolete cold war glasses.

You are probably right when you say the Italian communist party is not as bad as it sounds to the average American. Yet, they are still left-wing biased.
Your statement the party is far more democratic than the US republican party, might very well be founded on your lack of understanding of American politics .

I don't believe a word of the American version. The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the centre-Left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops.

First of all: Mr Diliberto's opinion on withdrawal of Italian troops is 2 years old at least. Bias???
Second: Mr. Diliberto's idea the Americans are lying is based on what?

I still don't see any probability in American soldiers deliberately killing an Italian journalist. Mr Diliberto's accusation lacks any facts.

@Red Threat,
Can you reasonably explain with facts why the Yanks would want her dead?

 

[Red Threat]

@Red Threat,
Can you reasonably explain with facts why the Yanks would want her dead?

1) Ransom; 2) Precious infos on Fallujah the Yanks don't want to be known. But these are only hypotesis. I'll repeat again: I'm not so sure about a conspiracy. Like millions of Italians, I only want to know the truth, I know I will never get it, and I think that the conspiracy is just a possibility.

Diliberto speaks in that way because he says what his electors want to hear (it's democracy). I don't agree with him, but I understand. A lot of friends of mine, in my college also, vote for him and agree with him.

Yet, they are still left-wing biased.

Is this a sin in democracy?

 

[Uiler]

I suspect the reputation of the US military in Italy is not helped by an incident a few years back where a US military plane killed 20 people. In Italy there were feelings that

1) The US military was stonewalling and "protecting its own" - not helped by the initial non-guilty verdict, the decision to not prosecute most of the crew, refusal to cooperate or supply information to Italian authorities, etc.
2) There was a coverup. To make things worse, it turned out there really *was* a coverup and the pilots had destroyed crucial evidence in an attempt to hide their reckless actions. Ergo the 2nd trial and the subsequent guilty verdict.

To add insult to injury after all this, for the death of 20 innocent civilians, the pilots only got 6 months in jail (and a good part of this was probably due to the coverup bit). The Italians had wanted the pilots to be tried in an Italian court. The extremely light sentence, esp. in light of the initial non-guilty verdict and refusal to try at all most of the crew probably didn't help the feeling that the US military "protects its own" even if they kill innocent Italians. Also the willingness of the pilots to lie and coverup their actions probably leads the Italians to think "If they lied in the past about what happened, then why should we trust their side of things now?"

I think memories of this incident probably colour the Italian's attitude to this. In fact, one politician said that he hoped that this time the American military would not act the same way they did with the 1998 cable car incident.

 

[Stapel]

I'll repeat again: I'm not so sure about a conspiracy. Like millions of Italians, I only want to know the truth, I know I will never get it, and I think that the conspiracy is just a possibility.

That sounds more reasonable.
Yet, I still think a conspiracy is hardly possible. Nothing to gain, a lot to lose.

 

[Stapel]

Is this a sin in democracy?

No, but it makes him unreliable.

I think accusing someone of murder should not be done so easy.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

There is no such thing as an accident in history that causes something to occur, like one battle causing the downfall of an entire nation. It takes internal problems first before that one battle is capable of making everything fall apart.

Italy and America have never been on good relations right about now. I see no reason why this changed anything.

 

[Jawz II]

i say the agent guy acted very honourably indeed

i can only hope to have same kind of bravery when a hail of bullets are coming my way

condolences

 

[anarres]

No, but it makes him unreliable.

I think accusing someone of murder should not be done so easy.

No more unreliable than being a neocon.

Seriously, where has this anti-left bias reared it's head from Stapel? I always knew you were somewhat conservative (euro-conservative, not US-conservative ), but saying somone is unreliable because they are left wing?

 

[Stapel]

No more unreliable than being a neocon.

Agreed!

Seriously, where has this anti-left bias reared it's head from Stapel? I always knew you were somewhat conservative (euro-conservative, not US-conservative ), but saying somone is unreliable because they are left wing?

Well, this Diliberto dude is a member of a communist party. That is not just left-wing, that's pretty far left-wing (though not as bad as it may sound to US-ians).
He has been against Iraqi invasion from the start. Right now he uses, or rather abuses, this tragical incident, which is, when I follow common sense, most probably a very very sad accident, to support his already fixed idea (immediate retreat of Italian troops).
He claims the Americans are not speaking the truth, becuase that fits into his political stance.

Now, that habit is most certainly not only found at left-wingers. but in this case, it seems rather obvious.

 

[Stapel]

I always knew you were somewhat conservative (euro-conservative, not US-conservative

There are so many things I want to change, that is would be improper to refer to me as a conservative anyway .

 

[Rik Meleet]

What do they want us to do? Make the soldiers scrape goats? Playing to the crowd is all they are doing.

You already seem to have chosen your truth: No US solider can ever be guilty.

I think that is wearing a mental blindfold. Soldiers are trained to kill; so why is it so strange to consider they did what they were trained to do; killing ??

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

The US officials better do not act like in the Cavalese cablecar incident again, or like in that case of theat tank that fired on the hotel with Western correspondents in Bagdhad.
The by far most likely explanation for what happened is that some common soldiers felt threatened (completely understandable), and did what the US troops seem to always do in case something is suspicious - open fire on the people in the car (completely off).
You'd think it should be possible to hit the engine of a slow-driving car, and not the people on the rear seats...

So, instead of blaming some GIs, the US Army needs to admit that their training, equipment and instructions are insufficient. Maybe they should look at how the Ulster-experienced UK forces act?
But, if the US side again denies any responsibility, I can imagine the Italo-US relationship getting seriously hurt, and a withdrawal seems thinkable.