Leoreth Plays China

[FraggleJock]

If China could choose their great person type as a national power (Abundance of Talent?) it might be possible to squeeze out 5 Golden ages.

 

[LikeNothing]

If China could choose their great person type as a national power

Such a cool UP! Best game-design idea I've seen in more than a year.

Alternative names for this UP:

The Power of Legalism
The Power of Meritocracy
The Power of Examinations

For reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

 

[Dracosolon]

If China could choose their great person type as a national power (Abundance of Talent?) it might be possible to squeeze out 5 Golden ages.

That sounds pretty strong, maybe just choose among the first two biggest types in the pool?

Not sure if the popup would be feasible either.

 

[LikeNothing]

I think Korea's UP does this and more, although just for your capital city.

I like how the Korean UP is a stronger, more extreme, but more compact version of (this just proposed) Chinese UP.
It'd sum up China and Korea's relationship (I mean not diplomatic, but cultural and ideological) perfectly.

Also, since GPs have (linearly or quadratically? not sure) diminishing spawn rates by (base Civ 4) game design, this proposed Chinese UP (unlike the Korean UP) will naturally fizzle out in time. It even fizzles out earlier for 3000BC China than it does for 600AD China, which saves some balancing work.

 

[JHLee]

China is a very rich region in terms of yield and resource, and can easily spin out of control even in the hands of a semi-competent player.
(Some of you will remember AI China being OP in previous versions)
Sometimes UHV goals can act to tone down this to some extent, and IMHO they are the most elegant way of managing game-balance, especially for the human players.
Often these would be culture-related goals (e.g. legendary culture in Paris, avg. 6000 culture in Japanese cities).
In the case of China, it is Golden Ages, since Chinese cities stuffed with GP buildings (Academies, Manufactories, Museums, Stock Exchanges) would be way too powerful.

 

[freethink]

I have not been able for the life of me to ever play China properly, Leoreth makes it look so easy. I either have too many cities or too few, too big army or too small, it never seems to work out between us.

 

[freethink]

I give Leoreth you may make it look easy but for me, China is impossible

 

[Leoreth]

Are you playing on Monarch?

I am never sure how good I am actually.

 

[freethink]

Are you playing on Monarch?

I am never sure how good I am actually.

I am trying Regent, in one my playthroughs I did not get into Medieval by around 700/800 haha, it seems like whatever I did I struggled to keep up with my budget and the rest of the world.

 

[TinCanManiac]

I am trying Regent, in one my playthroughs I did not get into Medieval by around 700/800 haha, it seems like whatever I did I struggled to keep up with my budget and the rest of the world.

One thing that I wasn't good at when I started was civics. Have you been looking at what civics you're running carefully?

 

[freethink]

I often try to run merchant trade as soon as possible, but it does not help as much as I was hoping for.

 

[FraggleJock]

for china I really like Louyang as capital with acadamy and regulated trade, cottage every non resource square you can even the hills. Scientists to the limit is the only real science pathway I have found for the early game and a little bulbing is pretty essential to keep your tech race alive. I like mathematics + philosophy for my first and there will be sometime later where you're put under pressure

I only win 1 game in 3 on monarch/normal but really enjoy the game except when byzantium gets compass in the late 500/early 600's that just disappoints.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, Regulated Trade is extremely good, especially if you build the Grand Canal in a supercity with lots of river tiles.

Some people suggested that me playing China would result in a nerf for its wonders. And it's true that Dujiangyan is extremely good and so is the Grand Canal. However, they are also a significant production investment, and to make the most of it you have to build them in a city without much production like Luoyang. They are definitely worth the cost but their benefits are delayed a lot, and for the UHV you sometimes have more pressing things to build earlier.

And China is constrained by its modifiers, getting access to big construction projects to address its challenges feels right.

That said, one change I have been considering for some time, but which hasn't been important enough to be implemented yet, is to change all "+X on river tiles" effects to "+X on flat river tiles". This is mostly targeted at Levees and would weaken them a bit so that they do not make already productive locations even more productive. But indirectly it would also weaken Dujiangyan and Grand Canal and make especially the former less appealing in hills.

 

[LikeNothing]

That said, one change I have been considering for some time, but which hasn't been important enough to be implemented yet, is to change all "+X on river tiles" effects to "+X on flat river tiles". This is mostly targeted at Levees and would weaken them a bit so that they do not make already productive locations even more productive. But indirectly it would also weaken Dujiangyan and Grand Canal and make especially the former less appealing in hills.

That would be very unrealistic for Dujiangyan. Its purpose IRL is best represented by a buff to hill river tiles. Moreover, any + wonder should only obsolete if there is a realistic explanation to the great famine the obsolescence would cause.

Moreover, the current effects of Dujiangyan and Grand Canal would be less significant on a bigger map. It's only because the current map is so small that wonders which buff 1 city seem so significant. On a bigger map wonders that buff all cities (Statue of Liberty, St. Thomas' Church) would be much more powerful. That said, I've always thought the Grand Canal should have different effects - its current effect only makes sense on a small map.

Dujiangyan: +1 for hill river tiles. Does not obsolete.
Dujiangyan is absolutely functional now even more so than when it was first built. If wonders like Sistine Chapel or Floating Gardens don't obsolete there is no reason Dujiangyan should. Generally, instead of obsolescence, some wonders can give a +% to City Maintenance or flat - instead, to represent the cost of maintaining these wonders.

Grand Canal: Allows building of Lighthouses and Wharfs in your non-coastal cities; +2 in each of these cities.
Does not obsolete OR obsolete with Railroad.

Instead of Dujiangyan or Grand Canal, it's the Great Wall that should obsolete (with Flight or Infrastructure).

 

[Dracosolon]

for china I really like Louyang as capital with acadamy and regulated trade, cottage every non resource square you can even the hills. Scientists to the limit is the only real science pathway I have found for the early game and a little bulbing is pretty essential to keep your tech race alive. I like mathematics + philosophy for my first and there will be sometime later where you're put under pressure

I've been wondering about that. I've read older remarks that cottages are badly nerfed by plagues, is that still the case or are they more viable now?

Also, since there's a synergy with Statemen, is China a good Espionage civ?

 

[FraggleJock]

In china's case you need all that commerce to pay for going so wide. it's not a case of efficiency so much as desperate need and plagues will be recovered from, even quickly if you have the right civics. Louyang on the aluminium can generate enough GP by itself to get all the GP you need for the Golden Ages, but your starting GP usually come from other cities though as you build up Louyang. (eg. in a recent successful game of mine @1180AD Louyang had 307 of china's 517 science)

 

[Genghis Khaiser]

For historicity's sake, shouldn't the Nanjing/Shanghai/Hangzhou area be within the Core?
It currently hosts the most populated city in China and is the only non-core region that has cities that have been permanent capitals of an unified China.

 

[JHLee]

it seems like whatever I did I struggled to keep up with my budget and the rest of the world.

You have to settle Luoyang as your capital, as it has far more commerce than what Xian can offer.
Get Calendar + Alloys ASAP and get those plantations running.

 

[Leoreth]

Not founding Chang'an as your capital is weak and cringe. Agreed on Luoyang though.

 

[Hightower]

For historicity's sake, shouldn't the Nanjing/Shanghai/Hangzhou area be within the Core?
It currently hosts the most populated city in China and is the only non-core region that has cities that have been permanent capitals of an unified China.

The mouth of the Yangzi wasn't part of the core of ancient China. It was very much at the limits of what would have been considered "Chinese" civilization during the Zhou dynasty, e.g., with the Wu state being coded barbarian in surviving literature on the Spring and Autumn Period and possibly speaking an Austronesian language. And China's core in-game does expand at some point to include the area, though I don't recall exactly when (maybe when reaching the Renaissance (the trigger for the name change to Sui/Tang) or discovering Gunpowder (the trigger for the name change to Song), which would make sense as the mouth of the Yangzi would be the center of the Southern Song, the first time the area played a central role in the Chinese state).