"Less Popular" Leader Elimination Thread
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Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 36
Hezekiah (Judah) 19+1=20 - Hebrews deserve to be represented as a Civ, and Hezekiah is quite good choice.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 31-3=28 - A great leader, but ancient countries and great empires interest me more than Native Americans
Hezekiah (Judah) 19+1=20 - Hebrews deserve to be represented as a Civ, and Hezekiah is quite good choice.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 31-3=28 - A great leader, but ancient countries and great empires interest me more than Native Americans
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) (36-3)=33 There are other Byzantine leaders (like Basil II) to choose from, and I'm not too interested in the Byzantines as a Civ (being very similar to Rome and Greece).
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (28+1)=29 I must defend the great chief against the Eurocentrists!
I think a North Amerindian Civ has more priority than two religious Middle Eastern Civs.
Hezekiah (Judah) 20
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (28+1)=29 I must defend the great chief against the Eurocentrists!
I think a North Amerindian Civ has more priority than two religious Middle Eastern Civs. 
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33
Hezekiah (Judah) 20 + 1 = 21 (Of the three remaining, I think he's the most unique, perhaps because of his defensive and diplomatic agenda, and also because he belongs to a civ that has never been represented)
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 29 - 3 = 26 (While I upvoted him previously, I am not as keen on his Confederacy becoming a civ in the game. The Iroquois would be a better (if often repeated) choice.)
Hezekiah (Judah) 20 + 1 = 21 (Of the three remaining, I think he's the most unique, perhaps because of his defensive and diplomatic agenda, and also because he belongs to a civ that has never been represented)
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 29 - 3 = 26 (While I upvoted him previously, I am not as keen on his Confederacy becoming a civ in the game. The Iroquois would be a better (if often repeated) choice.)
As long as I'm watching, I might as well finish up this round...
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33
Hezekiah (Judah) 18 (21 - 3) -- I've been more or less neutral on Judah/Israel because, even though I'd like to see them included, I can also the arguments against them. I think third place is adequate for Hezekiah, who would be my choice should Judah/Israel be included: he's less significant than Alexios Komnenos and less needed than Powhatan.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 27 (26 + 1) -- Let me explain why the Iroquois should not appear again despite being beyond question the most significant civilization in post-Columbian North America: in Civ1 there were no Native American civs, in Civ2-4 there was one Native American civ (quite literally in Civ4), and in Civ5 there were two. That suggests the very most we can hope for is three, and I wouldn't hold my breath on that given that there wasn't even one in the base game--discounting the Aztecs, there wasn't even a single civ indigenous to the entire New World in the base game. So I'd be astonished if we even got two again. Given that, there is absolutely no sense in repeating the same civilization over and over again, no matter how significant. The Powhatan Confederacy would fill the same gameplay niche as the Iroquois, represent a linguistic clade and group of cultures that have never had representation in civ before, offer a far better leader choice than any the Iroquois could offer, and be a choice whose significance would not be questionable (like, say, the Shoshone): Powhatan ruled over a rather large stretch of land with over forty tribes under his command.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33
Hezekiah (Judah) 18 (21 - 3) -- I've been more or less neutral on Judah/Israel because, even though I'd like to see them included, I can also the arguments against them. I think third place is adequate for Hezekiah, who would be my choice should Judah/Israel be included: he's less significant than Alexios Komnenos and less needed than Powhatan.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 27 (26 + 1) -- Let me explain why the Iroquois should not appear again despite being beyond question the most significant civilization in post-Columbian North America: in Civ1 there were no Native American civs, in Civ2-4 there was one Native American civ (quite literally in Civ4), and in Civ5 there were two. That suggests the very most we can hope for is three, and I wouldn't hold my breath on that given that there wasn't even one in the base game--discounting the Aztecs, there wasn't even a single civ indigenous to the entire New World in the base game. So I'd be astonished if we even got two again. Given that, there is absolutely no sense in repeating the same civilization over and over again, no matter how significant. The Powhatan Confederacy would fill the same gameplay niche as the Iroquois, represent a linguistic clade and group of cultures that have never had representation in civ before, offer a far better leader choice than any the Iroquois could offer, and be a choice whose significance would not be questionable (like, say, the Shoshone): Powhatan ruled over a rather large stretch of land with over forty tribes under his command.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33 If I look at the combination of civ and leader, he would be the winner for sure.
Hezekiah (Judah) 15 (18-3) Both, civ and leader, are bad choices imho.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 28 (27+1) While I'm still not too convinced of the civ, I am of the leader.
Hezekiah (Judah) 15 (18-3) Both, civ and leader, are bad choices imho.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 28 (27+1) While I'm still not too convinced of the civ, I am of the leader.
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) (33-3)=30 There's still other choices for Byzantine leader.
Hezekiah (Judah) 15
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (28+1)=29 Unless the Iroquois are represented by someone other than Hiawatha, I wouldn't mind them taking a break from the game in favor of a different Amerindian Civ from the region, like the Powhatan.
Hezekiah (Judah) 15
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (28+1)=29 Unless the Iroquois are represented by someone other than Hiawatha, I wouldn't mind them taking a break from the game in favor of a different Amerindian Civ from the region, like the Powhatan.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 30 + 1 = 31 (Arguably the most accomplished leader here, with clear agenda potential)
Hezekiah (Judah) 15 Inevitable third place is fine for him, IMO. His high status here reflects both his uniqueness and the ways in which he could be interesting from a gameplay perspective.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 29 - 3 = 26 (Including Powhatan inevitably means introducing the Confederacy, and I think the Iroquois take priority in that regard, even if led by the Great Peacemaker instead of Hiawatha. Also, while Powhatan was respected, it's trickier to see how he would fit into the game agenda-wise. A tough choice, and one I make reluctantly given that I upvoted him previously)
Hezekiah (Judah) 15 Inevitable third place is fine for him, IMO. His high status here reflects both his uniqueness and the ways in which he could be interesting from a gameplay perspective.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 29 - 3 = 26 (Including Powhatan inevitably means introducing the Confederacy, and I think the Iroquois take priority in that regard, even if led by the Great Peacemaker instead of Hiawatha. Also, while Powhatan was respected, it's trickier to see how he would fit into the game agenda-wise. A tough choice, and one I make reluctantly given that I upvoted him previously)
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 31
Hezekiah (Judah) 12 (15 - 3) -- Third place suits him.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 27 (26 + 1) -- Honestly if the Iroquois absolutely must return, Joseph Brant, despite being a leader of the Mohawk only and despite participating in the breaking of the League, is a better choice than either Hiawatha or the Great Peacemaker IMO. But the Iroquois have appeared twice in the franchise and it's time to offer some representation to other cultures on a continent with hundreds of civilizations to choose from; the Iroquois were not the only great Native American civilization. Besides, while the Powhatan Confederacy may not have lasted as long, it accomplished much of what the Iroquois did without gunpowder or European support. His abilities would probably relate to city-states, so he would probably have a city-state focused agenda. I think there's still room for more agendas of that type; so far we have two leaders that want you to leave them alone (selectively or generally).
Hezekiah (Judah) 12 (15 - 3) -- Third place suits him.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 27 (26 + 1) -- Honestly if the Iroquois absolutely must return, Joseph Brant, despite being a leader of the Mohawk only and despite participating in the breaking of the League, is a better choice than either Hiawatha or the Great Peacemaker IMO. But the Iroquois have appeared twice in the franchise and it's time to offer some representation to other cultures on a continent with hundreds of civilizations to choose from; the Iroquois were not the only great Native American civilization. Besides, while the Powhatan Confederacy may not have lasted as long, it accomplished much of what the Iroquois did without gunpowder or European support. His abilities would probably relate to city-states, so he would probably have a city-state focused agenda. I think there's still room for more agendas of that type; so far we have two leaders that want you to leave them alone (selectively or generally).
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 31
Hezekiah (Judah) (12-3)=9 Third place is best for him. I'm not that enthusiastic about a Hebrew Civ, but I recognize this King is at least archaeologically attested.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (27+1)=28 I want a different Northeast Amerindian Civ this time. Firaxis shying away from more historically attested leaders for the Iroquois (possibly because they fought the Americans during the Revolutionary War) has made me ambivalent to its return. The Algonquians played a big role in the early colonial history of the US, so I think at least one of them should become a Civ one day.
Hezekiah (Judah) (12-3)=9 Third place is best for him. I'm not that enthusiastic about a Hebrew Civ, but I recognize this King is at least archaeologically attested.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (27+1)=28 I want a different Northeast Amerindian Civ this time. Firaxis shying away from more historically attested leaders for the Iroquois (possibly because they fought the Americans during the Revolutionary War) has made me ambivalent to its return. The Algonquians played a big role in the early colonial history of the US, so I think at least one of them should become a Civ one day.
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 31 + 1 = 32 (While I would prefer Justinian, he is the most accomplished leader remaining.)
Hezekiah (Judah) 9
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 28 - 3 = 25 (I don't think Firaxis need shy away from Joseph Brant as leader, but frankly I think one of the co-founders of the Confederacy would be just fine; the problem with the Powhatan Confederacy lies not just in how short-lived it was, but in its having lesser influence than the Iroquois, who had strong pre-colonial influence and served as big power players during the Revolution and numerous other wars in that period. I also think the unity of the Confederacy was admirable, even if it split during the Revolution. Powhatan's Confederacy, while interesting, is simply less important. Also, I think the agenda of the Great Peacemaker is more compelling as a possibility for diplomatic depth as opposed to Powhatan's likely more militaristic bonuses, which, unlike say Senusret III of Egypt, do not come with interesting intersections in other areas of civilization development)
Hezekiah (Judah) 9
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 28 - 3 = 25 (I don't think Firaxis need shy away from Joseph Brant as leader, but frankly I think one of the co-founders of the Confederacy would be just fine; the problem with the Powhatan Confederacy lies not just in how short-lived it was, but in its having lesser influence than the Iroquois, who had strong pre-colonial influence and served as big power players during the Revolution and numerous other wars in that period. I also think the unity of the Confederacy was admirable, even if it split during the Revolution. Powhatan's Confederacy, while interesting, is simply less important. Also, I think the agenda of the Great Peacemaker is more compelling as a possibility for diplomatic depth as opposed to Powhatan's likely more militaristic bonuses, which, unlike say Senusret III of Egypt, do not come with interesting intersections in other areas of civilization development)
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 32
Hezekiah (Judah) 6 (9 - 3) -- I hope Judah is added as a civ eventually, but Hezekiah is less noteworthy than Alexios and less direly needed than Powhatan.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26 (25 + 1) -- North America north of the Rio Grande represents seven million square miles; estimates of its Pre-Columbian population continue to rise. There is no conceivable reason to continue to represent such an enormous region with one civilization. I welcome the return of the Iroquois...as the fourth or fifth Native American civilization, after some new faces have been added. I also disagree that Chief Powhatan need have a military focus; evidence suggests he was presiding over a sort of Pax Powhatan when the Jamestown settlers arrived, and for the most part he preferred to manipulate or negotiate with the newcomers. It was his brother and successor Opechancenough who was more warlike.
Hezekiah (Judah) 6 (9 - 3) -- I hope Judah is added as a civ eventually, but Hezekiah is less noteworthy than Alexios and less direly needed than Powhatan.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26 (25 + 1) -- North America north of the Rio Grande represents seven million square miles; estimates of its Pre-Columbian population continue to rise. There is no conceivable reason to continue to represent such an enormous region with one civilization. I welcome the return of the Iroquois...as the fourth or fifth Native American civilization, after some new faces have been added. I also disagree that Chief Powhatan need have a military focus; evidence suggests he was presiding over a sort of Pax Powhatan when the Jamestown settlers arrived, and for the most part he preferred to manipulate or negotiate with the newcomers. It was his brother and successor Opechancenough who was more warlike.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33 (32+1) I actually know much more about the diet of Byzantines and the daily life of monks than I do about their rulers and history. But this superficial knowledge is enough to know that he is a good choice, maybe even the best. I definitely don't want to see an early Basileus again, and even more definitely not a latin speaking leader. Konstantinos V may also be an interesting choice - and probably "less popular" enough for this thread in the eyes of some people. And Konstantinos VII is another obvious choice. But here we have Alexios I, who would be a nice winner for this thread.
Hezekiah (Judah) 3 (6-3) all has been said. 3rd place is still way too god for him imho.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26
Hezekiah (Judah) 3 (6-3) all has been said. 3rd place is still way too god for him imho.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 33+1=34 - Byzantium, while not a big priority, should return sometime, and Alexios I Komnenos is one of the best choices for a leader.
Hezekiah (Judah) 3 - Sadly, I can't save him. But I think that he would be a great leader for Hebrew Civ.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26-3=23 - Let's say that great empires like Byzantium or Ottoman Empire interest me more than Native Americans
Hezekiah (Judah) 3 - Sadly, I can't save him. But I think that he would be a great leader for Hebrew Civ.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 26-3=23 - Let's say that great empires like Byzantium or Ottoman Empire interest me more than Native Americans
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 34
Hezekiah (Judah) 3-3=0 Eliminated! 3rd place is best for him.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (23+1)=24 Great Empires are overrated, especially if they ruled the region I've spent years studying, Greece and Anatolia. My interest in Amerindians knows no bounds, and I will keep upvoting Powhatan until he falls!
Hezekiah (Judah) 3-3=0 Eliminated! 3rd place is best for him.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (23+1)=24 Great Empires are overrated
, especially if they ruled the region I've spent years studying, Greece and Anatolia. My interest in Amerindians knows no bounds, and I will keep upvoting Powhatan until he falls!
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 31 (34 - 3) -- Alexios will win and deserves to win, but I'm sticking by Powhatan to the bitter end.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 25 (24 + 1) -- Powhatan for paramount chief 15xx.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 25 (24 + 1) -- Powhatan for paramount chief 15xx.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 31+1=32 - Alexios deserves to win. He is the man who saved Byzantium from collapse, and made it strong and stable.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 25-3=22 - I'd rather take the great Byzantine Empire. It's more interesting to me
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 25-3=22 - I'd rather take the great Byzantine Empire. It's more interesting to me
Guandao
Rajah of Minyue, Hlai and Langkasuka
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) (32-3)=29 Byzantines are more boring, they are Greek-speaking Romans. Plus there are other choices for Byzantine leader.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (22+1)=23 I'm also sticking by the great chief till the bitter end.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) (22+1)=23 I'm also sticking by the great chief till the bitter end.
Alexios I Komnenos (Byzantium) 26 (29 - 3) -- My first choice for Byzantine basileus, but Byzantium is less a priority than the game's first Native American civ.
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 24 (23 + 1) -- Long live the mamanatowick!
Powhatan (Powhatan Confederacy) 24 (23 + 1) -- Long live the mamanatowick!
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