Let down by CiV? Loving Paradox games?

[builer680]

Did you try the link? It drops immediately into "You don't have a registered game / you're not a member / et cetera".

If a broken link counts as advertising, yeah, it's an advertisement. A really bad one.

I doubt he's around to respond, this is a five and a half month old thread.

Post #01 was posted on September 24, 2010.
Post #23 was posted on September 24, 2010.
Post #24 was posted on March 15, 2011.

Surprised no one else has noticed since post #24.

EDIT: Just did a search for posts by the guy you responded to. Guess he is still around. Still... necrosauce.

 

[Solo4114]

Its apple and oranges IMO. Its like comparing MS Flight Sim to Red Baron on the Amiga. One is catered to the sim crowd who crave realism, the other is a true to form game.

I bought EU3 at the suggestion of various threads on this site, and I'll admit that its not for me and I'm not a total idiot. I spent two days exploring all the features and options, and I ended up feeling the same way about it as I do MS Flight sim: I'm impressed with all the options and things the "game" tracks, but for me it is in no way fun to play. I'm clearly not willing to expend the time and effort to "give it a chance" by filling my mind with all the idiocycrasies of this type of game play.

To me, a game is to escape reality, not mimic it. Any emulation should go towards gratification only.

Excellent post. As I've said, the game is NOT for everyone. It's not quite a "history sim," but it's a lot closer than Civ is. And that's neither good nor bad. It's just a fact. The question of whether that sounds appealing to YOU is what'll determine if that's good or bad. If the game isn't your STYLE of game, that's fine. Like I said, you can pretty much figure that out within the first 15 minutes, if you hate the interface.

Try a game as Portugal. It is the perfect beginner nation because you can ally with Castille, who is a major power, who will draw you into wars that you can selectively take part in. You also can fully take advantage of colonization and you have a nice economy with a trade center.

I didn't fully appreciate EU3 until I played Portugal and built them into a true powerhouse over several hundred years of play. I even eventually wiped out Castille and formed Spain, which is one of the highlights of my paradox gaming career. I was also a colonial powerhouse controlling most of the Caribbean and north and central america. Once I took Castille I was basically the most powerful nation on the planet and I could take on anyone. It was fun to grow Portugal from the little slice on the Iberian peninsula to a powerhouse that could expand any way they wanted. I actually ended up taking over India and much of China in that game (massive trade in those areas and huge populations).

Also, new players should definitely read some AARs. Without them, I may not have truly gotten into EU3, Vicky, and CK like I have.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?360-EU3-After-Action-Reports-(AAR)

I actually haven't read any of the AARs, but I probably should. I still enjoy the game, but I definitely agree that a comprehensive tutorial would be REALLY helpful. Sadly, the tutorial missions on EU3 Complete never worked.

 

[al-rashid]

With all due respect, I don't think you really have an understanding of the game, then.

You started playing the game using a two-province minor member of the Holy Roman Empire. You start off with relatively little power, so that basically all you CAN do is bide your time until you can build up trade networks, maybe secure a few extra provinces by minor wars, improve your administration, and pray that Bavaria and Burgundy don't get pissy with you. If you build your army too fast, as you saw, you'll bankrupt yourself. If you take over too many provinces too quickly without good reason, you'll piss off your neighbors AND bankrupt yourself AND maybe incite revolts in your own provinces.

You judged a game you'd never played before based on a set of VERY limiting starting variables which don't really allow you to even see what the game can do. Try playing as one of the major powers first to at least get a sense of what the game can offer before you casually condemn it.

I mean, I get it if the style of gameplay isn't your thing, but it doesn't sound like you gave the game a fair shake. If it's the interface you don't like, hey, fair enough. You can figure out that you don't like it in about 15 min. But if you're saying "There's nothing to do in the game" based on what is essentially a neutered start that doesn't leave you with a lot of early-game options (well, short of basically suiciding like you did), it doesn't sound to me like you really know what you're talking about.

Like I said, if the STYLE of the game -- the hands-off administrator approach -- isn't your thing, hey, fair criticism. It's not for everyone. Maybe you prefer the micromanagement of Civ. I enjoy that sometimes, myself. But the game's got plenty to do in it. Even if you're playing a two-province minor, provided you're willing to be patient enough to let it play out to a point where you can actually do something interesting.

Patience Isn't one of my virtues, maybe the game style doesn't suit me either, but from an administrative point of view there's nothing to do, unless there's a massive interface or part of the game I'm missing which I doubt. I'll go through all the boring tedious features and things that apparently adds depth and is interesting; auto send merchants to trade centers, get trade agreements with others to help you succeed there, develop good relations with factions for no benefit what so ever, wait 20 years for a tech increase and recieve a fantastic 1% bonus to trade/production efficiency, change policies slightly every 30 years, and then wait for something interesting to happen and realise that it wont, exit game.

The first game I did build up a good income and advanced a few techs but it still didn't interest me, I had about 50 coming in from antwerp as I was on level 4. Burdundy and Bavaria were never a problem as there was literaly no interaction between them and us or any other nation. Can't see how you can start minor wars as it was impossible to get a cassus belli or any nations to join us in it, plus the fact that every nation around is being garunteed independence and allied to several nations. fyi I bankrupted myself with a huge army just to mess around with the game really, as I was no longer interested in sitting and waiting for a bunch of useless techs.

 

[al-rashid]

You basically chose to play a nation only a very experienced person should choose, and you predictably had no fun and lost.

Play as a major power or a smaller power with potential like Portugal or Venice so you actually have a chance to reasonably experience the game. With Portugall you can usualy become allies with Castille to keep yourself safe allowing you to focus on colonization and trade. Castille will call you to war when they are at war, but you can generally just sit back and guard your coasts with a solid navy while having a small standing army in your provinces. The defensive wars are generally quite easy (and profitable since they allow you to collect war taxes and you often aren't even at risk of being attacked), and becoming a colonial power is a lot of fun (west Africa is a good start, then Brazil and the Caribbean). As Venice you can becomes a trading powerhouse with the goal to take over the Italian peninsula within a few hundred years. In either case, there is a clear goal that will allow you to jump from minor power to major power over the course of a few centuries, and maneuvering towards that goal is generally a lot of fun.

I've played hundreds of hours of EU3 and even I wouldn't want to play the nation you chose. There just isn't enough to do.

You misunderstood my post, I said I played 2 games with Palantine. The first one was going well I guess. wasn't fun but I was making money etc, the second one I just kamikazied for the hell of it. I might give portugal a try if I decided to give it another go then, won't be playing a small nation again though as it was dull as . On a side note how the hell do you take a region under your control as I won several battles and sieges and it wouldn't let me claim ownership.

 

[Solo4114]

Playing as a small nation is indeed dull, depending on how you do it. There ARE ways to create CBs, and give you non-stability-killing wars, but they're more limited for smaller nations. Here's a few of them:

- Claim someone's throne. You need a royal marriage with them first, they need to have weakened legitimacy, and then you claim their throne. If someone ELSE claims the throne, you end up in a succession war. If not, you basically get to rule their country (although I don't think you annex them, so when your ruler dies, they may get a new ruler and break off from you again). Still, that CAN land you in a war.

- Form alliances and hope that an ally calls you into a war. Doesn't always happen, but it can. That gives you the "Alliance" CB.

- Go on crusade. Wait for the Pope to declare a holy war on...someone (probably one of the north-african states), and go grab some land. It won't be great land, but it's worth a shot.

- Sometimes you'll get a mission that gives you "Conquer [neighbor]". These missions ROCK. You get a free core on the province once you win, and it's not as expensive to win as when you go to war without a CB.

- Sometimes someone will get a "Dishonorable Scum" CB against them. Frequently, this is Burgundy in the early game. Once they get this, ANYONE can declare against them. You can also try allying with one of the majors like France or England (or Burgundy) to get called into wars with one of the others.

- Excommunications against someone also give you a "free" CB against them until the excommunication is lifted.

- Sometimes if you develop enough trade and compete away enough other traders, you'll get the embargo CB. Not a great CB, doesn't let you gobble land, but you can at least build prestige.

- There may be Holy Roman Empire politics you can engage in to try to get yourself to become the Emperor, which will likely see you involved in plenty of wars.

That said, playing as one of the smaller minors is VERY hard and/or boring. You don't have a big military, so you have to rely on trade and teching to get ahead. You have to play the diplomatic game pretty carefully, in order to gradually expand. You're often land-locked, so forget about colonization. It's NOT easy.


Best nations to start with, in my opinion, are:

- Portugal
- Castille
- France
- England
- Burgundy

Some of the other central powers (Bavaria, Bohemia, maybe one of the German states like Brandenburg or the Hansa) can be interesting. There's also Muscovy and Novgorod, and Sweden. The first two typically end up fighting non-stop with the Horde, but Sweden also gets a nice little self-contained game where you can build a little baltic empire.

Still, a one-or-two-province German minor is a very esoteric game, and one that's pretty hard to play or get into, in my opinion. Your missions are probably boring too, like, "Establish a center of trade!" Great. Build up 500 gold, plop the thing down, and...uh...gain 10 prestige. >yawn<

Like I said, if the interface isn't for you -- too hands off, too slow between game feedback events, etc. -- no worries. You shouldn't force yourself to play something where the actual ACT of just PLAYING the game bores you (forgetting about the outcomes, I mean). There are games where I have fun losing, and games where I'm bored to tears winning. The PLAYING of the game has got to appeal, after all.

But I'd say you've only experienced a fraction of what actually playing the game is when it comes to EU3 if you played as the Palantinate. You've got a sense of the interface, certainly, so if that's a huge turn-off, you may be making the right call by moving on. But in terms of the game options, playing initial games as The Palatinate would be like playing a game of Civ5 as one of the city-states. "I know! I'll play the next game as Hanoi!"

 

[blasto]

Try a game as Portugal. It is the perfect beginner nation because you can ally with Castille, who is a major power, who will draw you into wars that you can selectively take part in. You also can fully take advantage of colonization and you have a nice economy with a trade center.

I didn't fully appreciate EU3 until I played Portugal and built them into a true powerhouse over several hundred years of play. I even eventually wiped out Castille and formed Spain, which is one of the highlights of my paradox gaming career. I was also a colonial powerhouse controlling most of the Caribbean and north and central america. Once I took Castille I was basically the most powerful nation on the planet and I could take on anyone. It was fun to grow Portugal from the little slice on the Iberian peninsula to a powerhouse that could expand any way they wanted. I actually ended up taking over India and much of China in that game (massive trade in those areas and huge populations).

Also, new players should definitely read some AARs. Without them, I may not have truly gotten into EU3, Vicky, and CK like I have.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?360-EU3-After-Action-Reports-(AAR)

I appreciate the suggestion. Is there a particular scenario to play as them on? I'll give it another shot.

 

[Hormagaunt]

I doubt he's around to respond, this is a five and a half month old thread.

Post #01 was posted on September 24, 2010.
Post #23 was posted on September 24, 2010.
Post #24 was posted on March 15, 2011.

Surprised no one else has noticed since post #24.

EDIT: Just did a search for posts by the guy you responded to. Guess he is still around. Still... necrosauce.

Sorry, didn't notice that someone was practicing necromancy.

 

[al-rashid]

Maybe I was a little rash on my decision, it was a dull first game but there's a reason I tried it out in the first place. Decided to try a game with portugal, has been slightly more eventful. I took advice and allied with castille and they allowed me to join their war against granada which we won, but they got a region out of it and I got nothing, despite taking gibralter myself. Seemed as though the truce was agreed apon without even consulting me...

Now the thing I'm not understanding is, that I'm no longer allied with england or castille, relations are lowered and I don't know what caused this. Do they just expire after a while? Castille are now saying an alliance is impossible for us, and to top it off they have a CB against us Is that something to do with low prestige? as mine is at -39. I guess there are areas I don't quite understand.

 

[bhavv]

Hmm, the only paradox game I bought was magicka and I love it.

As for strategy games, Ubisoft are pretty much the winners right now with Anno 1404, Settlers 7, and the upcoming HOMM VI. I havnt bought Settlers 7 yet though, Anno 1404 is pretty much unbelievably perfect for a strategy game, yet so terribly underrated.

 

[Solo4114]

I appreciate the suggestion. Is there a particular scenario to play as them on? I'll give it another shot.

I've only ever played the Grand Campaign, starting in 1399. >shrug< I imagine the War of the Spanish Succession would be fun to play as France. Other than that, I got nothin'.

Maybe I was a little rash on my decision, it was a dull first game but there's a reason I tried it out in the first place. Decided to try a game with portugal, has been slightly more eventful. I took advice and allied with castille and they allowed me to join their war against granada which we won, but they got a region out of it and I got nothing, despite taking gibralter myself. Seemed as though the truce was agreed apon without even consulting me...

Yeah, if you're the junior partner in an alliance, you don't usually get to keep what you fought for, unless you negotiate a separate peace. Don't worry, though. There's almost ALWAYS a holy war that gets declared on the North African spots. Plus, Portugal (I think) starts with land on Madeira and the Canary Islands, which means easier colonization of the Americas. Portugal is actually well positioned to be a MAJOR player in colonies, assuming it doesn't get knocked off in Europe.

Now the thing I'm not understanding is, that I'm no longer allied with england or castille, relations are lowered and I don't know what caused this. Do they just expire after a while? Castille are now saying an alliance is impossible for us, and to top it off they have a CB against us Is that something to do with low prestige? as mine is at -39. I guess there are areas I don't quite understand.

Yeah, the game's got a lot of stuff to manage. Not sure how your prestige dropped to -39, but there are a few things that can affect (especially diplomacy). Your alliances with England and Castille were probably canceled somewhere along the way. That can happen if, for example, they say "Come help us smack these guys around" and you either fail to respond or say "No thanks. I've got plans this weekend." At which point, your alliance automatically dissolves. Otherwise, I'd have figured there'd be some notification about it.

They get a CB against you if you fail to honor your alliance, so I'm guessing that's where both the CB and the broken alliance came from -- they probably issued a call (which pops up as a little Castillian flag with crossed swords on it in the lower lefthand corner that you have to open up), and you either didn't notice it, or told them to bugger off.

Your prestige gradually degrades over time, if you aren't doing things to improve it. This is where the little "Missions" come in. Your prestige also helps you convince other people to do stuff that you want (as does your ruler's diplomacy rating). Try completing some missions, or getting into a war with the North Africans. If you win the war, you can gain prestige. Be careful not to accrue too much "reputation" (basically "warmonger" points), or you'll tick off your neighbors and end up with a "Dishonorable Scum" CB against you!

 

[Aeon221]

EU3 and Vicky2 are about planning the development of your nation such that it becomes the dominant player on the world stage, within the limitations of the governing international system, and with a population that, at times, actively opposes your overriding interest in power.

Civ is a game of total war, where two or more cultures smash all the outputs of their respective cities against one another, with the victor claiming all the spoils of the defeated power. Or a game where you build a space ship or pump culture or please enough people to win. Your population is mostly inert, and your rivals are just as cold heartedly militant as you are.

In a Paradox game, conquering the world is a rarely accomplished feat requiring a huge amount of dedication and no small amount of skill -- even as the UK in Vicky2, you'll find that the most powerful force on earth at the start is merely first amongst equals. I've been playing games from Paradox for over a decade, and I've yet to summon up the dedication necessary to paint the whole planet my color.

In Civ, conquering the world isn't really all that tough. I've done it oodles of times.

Both systems have merit. I suppose.

Maybe I was a little rash on my decision, it was a dull first game but there's a reason I tried it out in the first place. Decided to try a game with portugal, has been slightly more eventful. I took advice and allied with castille and they allowed me to join their war against granada which we won, but they got a region out of it and I got nothing, despite taking gibralter myself. Seemed as though the truce was agreed apon without even consulting me...

Now the thing I'm not understanding is, that I'm no longer allied with england or castille, relations are lowered and I don't know what caused this. Do they just expire after a while? Castille are now saying an alliance is impossible for us, and to top it off they have a CB against us Is that something to do with low prestige? as mine is at -39. I guess there are areas I don't quite understand.

Alliances expire after a set period of time where no war has occurred. You can find out the effects of prestige by mousing over the prestige icon in the interface.

Check the type of CB, they may have gotten it by event or from a spy. If relations are low and they have a CB, they may have been insulting you in preparation for a war. In which case, get your troops to a defensive position and hide your fleet. War with Castille as Portugal is brutal, because they outgun and outearn you, so you need to fight carefully and defensively until you've crushed their army and fleet -- then you can blockade them, stealing cash, and occupy their turf with spread out troops.

If you don't want to fight them right now, I'd focus on hitting some of their recently acquired turf with revolt focused spies, and building friendly relations with France. If you can get an alliance with France, or at least guaranteed by them, you're safe.

 

[tom2050]

I have no intention to whine here. But since many seem disappointed by the game so far, and by the way the franchise has evolved in the last many years, I opened a discussion thread on the Paradox interactive forum. For those of you who love Paradox games... and for those who don't know them of course You are all welcome.

Here's the link to the discussion (if i'm not allowed to post outside links here, sorry Moderator. Erase it). I believe people can easly find it on the Paradox Interactive general discussion page.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11680889#post11680889

Thanks

If a post like this was made on the 2K forums, they would shut the thread down, likely infract you, and probably ban you until you fall in line and do as they wish (but not as they do).

Luckily, CFC doesn't do as 2K wishes (like gutless gamespy does). CFC is wise, and fair. No wonder 2K put so much effort into deceiving the CFC community before release, and then disappeared (immediately vanished, almost like magic!) after they released the game and sucked all of our money out of our pockets.

Thanks 2K! We won't forget this!

 

[al-rashid]

Alliances expire after a set period of time where no war has occurred. You can find out the effects of prestige by mousing over the prestige icon in the interface.

Check the type of CB, they may have gotten it by event or from a spy. If relations are low and they have a CB, they may have been insulting you in preparation for a war. In which case, get your troops to a defensive position and hide your fleet. War with Castille as Portugal is brutal, because they outgun and outearn you, so you need to fight carefully and defensively until you've crushed their army and fleet -- then you can blockade them, stealing cash, and occupy their turf with spread out troops.

If you don't want to fight them right now, I'd focus on hitting some of their recently acquired turf with revolt focused spies, and building friendly relations with France. If you can get an alliance with France, or at least guaranteed by them, you're safe.

I think that I keep missing notifacations from other nations resulting in lowered prestige and no alliance, as I witnessed one box down there but wasn't quick enough to click it.

Ok about this "then you can blockade them, stealing cash, and occupy their turf with spread out troops." How do you blockade and steal cash? also wouldn't spread out forces be more easier for their ful stack to come around and annihalate each of your armies one by 1? Because so far whoever has the most numbers in their army seems to win a by a huge margin.

 

[Medopu]

Well, I aged up with Civ III, then progressed on IV and then on V.

I bought EU3, and Victoria 2, and I know why they don't satisfy me.

Civilization games make you start on absolute zero. You BUILD THE EMPIRE. Everything is your work, your dedication. It's up to you, where to colonize, who to conquer, what to build. And when you win, you get the feeling:

we started equal... but I won because I was better than the opponents.

Vic2 and EU3 offer you 2 stiles.

1. You pick a super-power and eventually gain a few lands here and there and perhaps some colonies. And that is that. Ofcourse you put in hours and hours in politics, trading and diplomacy, but when you finish, you basically don't accomplish really a lot if you are a casual player. Yes I know experts could rule the world with secondary civilisations at the end but those are exceptions.
You just feel like half of it was already done, you just made it through not screwing everything up with one click.

2. You ofcourse can play a random small nation, and build it as an empire
And even all the guides start with:
To actually do anything you will need tremendous luck:
"first do [something]. It can fail and if it does: start new game"
like: "be allies with Russia. If they don't accept it, start new game. Start a war, if your allies don't anhialate your enemy, start new game.

Well, I totally understand how some people like these games and I deeply respect them, but I just can't like those games, I just can't squeeze any fun out of them.

 

[JohnnyW]

<3 EU3. Far more engrossing than civ.

 

[Ayt]

I appreciate the suggestion. Is there a particular scenario to play as them on? I'll give it another shot.

Just start with the 1399 scenario as Portugal and get relations high enough to become an ally with Castille (you may be able to do it from the start, it has been a long time since I used them). After that you really only need to build a defensive army and agree to go to war when Castille calls you, but you don't actually need to aggressively fight for Castille in their wars. You can just leave your army at home and be technically "at war" without really fighting anybody. In the meantime, you can focus on trading and pick the colonization great ideas so you can become one of the first (if not the first) nations to colonize the Americas. Once you have a decent colonial base you can send some troops over and take out the Aztecs and Incas to get access to their gold which blasts you into the stratosphere in terms of income. Once you've done that, you are basically free to do whatever you want including taking on the European powers or taking out India or China to gain access to the trading centers and high priced goods in those areas.

 

[JohnnyW]

I don't know why so many people recommend playing Prtugal and allying Castille.....just freaking play Castille IMO.

 

[builer680]

I don't know why so many people recommend playing Prtugal and allying Castille.....just freaking play Castille IMO.

They probably like the buffer from the rest of Europe provided by having an ally blocking all land approaches to them. Just a guess, I haven't played EU3, but I have played a few Europe map war games in my time.

In M2TW, I absolutely loved Portugal, though not for that reason. They had the best pikemen and the best muskets in the game. Also I think they had access to Basilisk cannons, one of the best artillery pieces available. A blast to play, with HRE (and their armor piercing mace wielding knights and foot knights) a very close second. Actually, not even second, more like tied for first.

 

[JohnnyW]

They probably like the buffer from the rest of Europe provided by having an ally blocking all land approaches to them. Just a guess, I haven't played EU3, but I have played a few Europe map war games in my time.

Yeah, Portugal is isolated...but not from Castille. XD Castille has a much better military capacity, but it also has the need for it.

The cool thing about Castille is it gets some awesome missions early. Conquer Granada, conquer NW Africa, conquer Italy.

 

[builer680]

Yeah, Portugal is isolated...but not from Castille. XD Castille has a much better military capacity, but it also has the need for it.

The cool thing about Castille is it gets some awesome missions early. Conquer Granada, conquer NW Africa, conquer Italy.

That's probably why I see some people say to make Castile your ally or start a new game... if you're playing as Portugal. You're only 'isolated' if they're your ally. Personally, in games like that I like the tension of volatile borders (another reason I loved HRE so much), but I can see the appeal in having security. Same reason lots of people play as England in a game like that, or at least M2TW. In M2, it was pretty trivial to conquer the Scots, rebel Irish, and neighboring Welsh rebels to form the United Kingdom and just wait for an opening on the mainland. Not sure how EU3 treats England (one country or several provinces).