Lets discuss: Homophobia
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Japanrocks12
tired of being a man
Here's a new perspective: racist and homophobic jokes are to quality humor as hot pockets are to quality food
Japanrocks12
tired of being a man
List of Victims of Hate and Violence
Onxard, California
Lawrence King
February 12, 2008
15 year old gay man killed for being gay
Edmond, Oklahoma
Steven Domer
October 26, 2007
62 year old gay man killed for being gay
Sacramento, California
Satender Singh
July 5, 2007
26 year old gay man killed for being gay
Brooklyn, New York
Michael Sandy
October 8, 2006
29 year old gay man died for being gay
Iraq
Ahmed Khalil
May, 2006
14 year old Iraqi gay teen executed by police
Montreal, Quebec
Montreal Female Engineering Students
December 6, 1989
Fourteen young women were killed. They were killed because they were perceived to be feminists. The students killed that day include:
Genevieve Bergeron
Helene Colgan
Nathalie Croteau
Barbara Daigneault
Anne-Marie Edward
Maud Haviernick
Barbara Klucznik
Maryse Leclair
Annie St.-Arneault
Michele Richard
Maryse Laganière
Anne-Marie Lemay
Sonia Pelletier
Annie Turcotte
Iran
Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni
July, 2005
Two gay Iranian teenagers executed for being gay.
Tucson, Arizona
Philip Walsted
2002
Young man who is thought to have been murdered because he was gay.
New Jersey
Sakia Gunn
2003
Lesbian teenager stabbed to death, because she was gay.
Mexico,
Octavia Acuna
January, 2005
Gay rights and health activist stabbed to death in Mexico.
Florida
Ronnie Antonio Paris
January, 2005
Three year old baby killed by father.
Kentucky
Richie Phillips
Richie was a 36 year old man, who the prosecution felt was lured to motel room and murdered for being gay.
Waterloo/Cedar-Falls area, Iowa,
Jason Gage
March, 2005
Gay man murdered.
Justin Enos
2000
Young man murdered because he danced like a girl.
Sierra Leone, Africa,
Fannyann Eddy
September, 2004
African Lesbian activist raped and murdered.
Unknown Victim of Hate Crime
2005
Teen who took his life after being bullied and tortured for being gay. This young person represents one of the many people who take their own lives due to hate and are the real unknown victims of the hate war.
Alabama,
Scotty Weaver
July, 2004
Gay teen was murdered. He was beaten, strangled, stabbed, cut and burned.
Vancouver, Canada,
Aaron Webster
March, 2005
Gay man murdered by a gang of people. One judge described the murder as sounding like Nazi youth gangs looking for victims.
Steen Fenrich
2000
Gay teenager murdered by his step-father, because Steen was gay.
Brownwood, Texas,
Leon Laureles
May, 1996
Grant Town, West Virginia,
Carl "J.R." Warren, Jr.
July 4, 2000
Los Angeles, California,
August, 1999
Joseph Ileto
Skokie, Illinolis
2 July, 1999
Ricky Byrdsong, age 43
Bloomington, Indiana
4 July, 1999
Won-Joon Yoon, age 26
Redding, California
1 July 1999
Winfiel Mowder
gay couple murdered in their beds while sleeping.
Alabama,
Billy Jack Gaither, 39 - 19 February 1999
James Primus, 35 - 21 June 1993
Nebraska
Brandon Teena, 21 - 31 December 1993
Nevada
Anton Walker, 54 - August 1994
William Metz - 8 July 1994
Arizona
Michael Despain, 24 - 6 June 1994
Thomas Frazee, 28 - 12 December 1994
Robert Haines - 4 April 1994
Joseph Charles Holleran - May 1994
Duane Linsley - 16 January 1994
New Hampshire
Eric Balagot, 29 - 24 July 1998
Arkansas
Chris Miller, 23 - 30 July 1993
Ronnie H Smith, 58 - found 25 February 1994
New Jersey
Harold Draper, 29 - 30 May 1994
Thomas Mulcahy, 57 - 13 July 1992
James Septimphelter - 5 March 1994
California
Mauricio Bassa (AKA PJ Blake) - 22 May 1993
Therman Brown, 50 - 22 January 1993
John Garfield - 30 May 1992
James Graves - 22 December 1993
Father Ronald Maupin - August 1993
Harvey Milk, 47 - 27 November 1978
Mayor George Moscone, 51 - 27 Nov 1978
John Duncan O'Friel, 46 - 8 July 1993
Keith Michael Ogden, 31 - 7 July 1993
Louis Pearson, 44 - 3 May 1998
Tony Ray - 24 March 1994
Jon Simmons - 17 October 1994
Cameron (Tina) Tanner - fall 1992
Tommy Wenger, 24 - 28 March 1994
Brian Wilmes, 45 - 13 march 1998
Colorado
Poul Anderson, 54 - found 23 May 1994
Mark Butts, 35 - 15 May 1998
Anthony Carr, 33 - 26 December 1992
Robert Ferrell, 57 - 15 September 1992
Randy Gonzales, 26 - 22 January 1993
Steven R. Heyman, 47 - 2 November 1993
James Holman, 36 - 13 February 1992
Bruce Hutchinson, 31 - 8 May 1994
David Stewart, 2 June 1992
Benjamin Zesch, 61 - 16 July 1992
New York
Lawrence Andrews, 44 - 11 March 1993
Victor Bones, 20s - 27 July 1992
Brian Burke, 36 - found 25 October
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s - 26 December 1992
Pauline Campbell, 34 - 23 February 1992
Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman, 20 - Dec 1992
Jeannie Fenmore, 48 - 23 December 1993
Bernard Friedman, 56 - 20 April 1994
Dwight Greene, 44 - 8 July 1993
Jimmy Hawkins, 50 - found 15 August 1993
Robert Kase, 44 - 16 October 1994
Charles Lee - 17 April 1993
Roosevelt Lewis, 30s - found 3 April 1993
Anthony Marrero, 44 - 16 May 1993
Malcolm Michaels, Jr, 46 - 6 July 1992
Javier Munsuri, 40 - found 28 May 1994
George "Joe" Ortiz, 40 - 27 March 1993
Martin Parian, 20s - 13 July 1994
Vanathan Pleasant III, 21 - 19 July 1992
Julio Prado, 39 - 11 January 1992
Eric Price, 25 - 29 June 1993
Nelson Rawlins, 48 - 30 July 1994
Julio Rivera - July 1990
Benjamin Rosario, 45 - 3 August 1994
Michael Sakara, 56 - 20 April 1994
Jesus Santiago, 24 - 2 February 1992
David Schwartz, 55 - found 9 November 1992
Milton Setzer, 60 - 29 June 1993
James Seward, 42 - 28 July 1993
Paul Steckman, 45 - March 1994
John Stella, 33 - 1 May 1994
Gary Trzaska, 41 - 2 October 1998
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s - found 30 Sep 1993
Bernie Walsh, 28 - 12 April 1992
Richard Whitesell, 32 - 13 June 1994
Connecticut
Jame Maile, 25 - 10 December 1993
North Carolina
James Buchanan, 52 - 2 October 1994
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50 - 2 October 1994
Carlos Stoner, 33 - 27 May 1992
Gerald Taylor, 66 - 20 July 1992
Delaware
Stebven Wilson, 9 - October 1995
North Dakota
District of Columbia
Jack Cowles, 74 - 21 December 1992
Rogers Donahue, 25 - 16 September 1993
Ricky Godbolt, 33 - 16 September 1993
Marvin Greenwell, 55 - found 10 May 1994
Alan Haskell, 30 - 3 February 1993
David A. Jarman, 38 - 4 April 1994
Charles Logan, 47 - 8 January, 1994
Kenneth Love, 42 - 21 December 1992
Paul McClure, 47 - 5 February 1994
Eric Moore, 22 - 3 January 1993
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33 - 17 May 1994
Ana Maria Rosales, 24 - 7 January 1993
Andrew Rowe, 53 - found 9 May 1994
Sanford "Sam" Swift, 31 - 11 June 1992
Shelton Thigpen, 74 - found 23 June 1994
Frank W. White, 56 - 18 March 1994
Ohio
Dante Evans Brown, 13 - 1980
Eric Farrow - found 20 November 1993
Darrell Lane, 14 - 1980
George S. - 10 January 1993
Unidentified gay man, 13 October 1992
Florida
Michael Cooper - 11 March 1993
Craig Duncan, 20s - March 1994
James Flaherty, 52 - 14 February 1993
Steven Goederis, 30 - 27 April 1998
David Gunn - March 1993
Kavens B. Hall, II, 16 April 1998
Walter Jammell Hinton, 43 - 20 Nov 1994
Albert Alcie Morris, 37 - 19 May 1994 *********
John Hardy Roberts, 59 - 15 March 1994
Oklahoma
Unidentified gay man - March 1993
Georgia
Milton Bradley, 72 - 5 May 1994
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25 - 14 Jan 1993
Unidentified male transvestite - December 1992
Unidentified gay man, May 1994
Oregon
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25 - 26 September 1992
Brian Mock, 45 - 26 September 1992
Hawaii
Pennsylvania
Robert Hagan - found 9 August 1993
Robert Harris - 5 October 1994
Paul Steekman, 47 - 3 April 1994
Idaho
Puerto Rico
Illinois
Robert Harris - 2 February 1993
Dennis Johnson - 31 October 1993
William Lemke - 9 April 1994
Richard Skelton, 48 - 10 August 1998
Unidentified gay man, 70s - December 1993
Unidentified gay man - 22 April 1994
Unidentified male prostitute - 31 Dec 1993
Unidentified transvestite - 18 December 1993
Rhode Island
Roger Oliver, 23 - 2 May 1994
Indiana
Pamela Agee - 8 November 1992
Leta Dains - 8 November 1992
Unidentified gay man, 22 - 31 May 1993
Unidentified gay man, 50 - June 1994
South Carolina
Andre Jones, 33 - 23 July 1994
Iowa South Dakota
Kansas
Unidentified gay man, 20s - 29 October 1994
Tennessee
Martin Luther King, Jr. - 4 April 1968
William Tatum - 1978
Unidentified gay man, - 21 July 1994
Kentucky
Jack Gilman - 9 May 1993
Texas
Larry David Allen - 18 August 1994
Michael Benishek - January 1994
John Anthony Burwell, 26 - 2 April 1994
Michael Burzinski, 29 - 30 July 1994
James Byrd - 6 June 1998
Jeffrey Davis, 38 - 20 April 1998
John Dobbs, 73 - 3 February 1988
Lary Leggett - 25 January 1994
Fred Mangione, 46 - 4 January 1996
Tommy Musick, 48 - February 1994
Thanh Nguyen - 1991
Leopoldo Quintanilla, 29 - 23 June 1993
Amy Robinson - 15 February 1998
Jose Rubio - 1 July 1992
Joe Trevino - 3 March 1994
Randall Tubb, 40s - 1994
Nicholas West, 23 - 30 November 1993
Louisiana
Joe Balogg, 22 - 12 November 1993
Utah
Doug Keohler, 31 - 15 August 1993
Maine
Charlie Howard - 1984
Vermont
Maryland
Marvin Johnson, 29 - 2 January 1994 *************
Joey H. Jordan, 31 - 6 July 1992
Virginia
Harold Coon - 17 December 1994
Henry Northington, 39 - March 1999
Garland Leroy Taylor, 24 - 17 Sep 1994
Gary Watts, 34 - 10 June 1994
Henry Weatherford, Jr., 50 - 13 June 1994
Julie Williams - May 1996
Lollie Winans - MAy 1996
Unidentified gay man, 27 - 28 June 1993
Unidentified gay man - 3 September 1993
Massachusetts
Thomas Carey, 39 - 14 May 1993
William "Rita" Hester, 35 - 28 Nov 1998
Washington
Bradley Wantdler - 20 June 1993
Michigan
Scott Amedure - 9 March 1995
Bruce Andrews, 28 - October 1992
David Converse, 51 - 16 July 1994
Jeffrey Dansby - March 1993
Susan Pittman, 56 - May 1992
Christina Puckett, 39 - May 1992
Gary Rocus, 41 - November 1994
West Virginia
Vicki Durian, 26 - 1984
Nancy Santomero, 19 - 1984
Minnesota
Steven Fox, 25 - 20 July 1994
Craig Green, 34 - 26 May 1993
Howard Liebhaber, 34 - 25 October 1992
Terry Oliver, 27 - found 29 January 1993
Duane Swalve, 23 - 29 April 1993
Johnnie Williams, 48 - 15 July 1994
Wisconsin
Mississippi
Stanley King, 24 - 15 December 1994
Joseph Shoemake, 24 - 8 October 1994
Robert Walters, 34 - 8 October 1994
Wyoming
Roger Melner, 60s - fall 1994
Matthew Shepard, 21 - 12 October 1998
Missouri
William Childs, 27 - 22 April 1993
Craig Johnson, 23 - 15 December 1994
Gerald Gordon, 42 - 1977
U.S. Territories
Montana
U.S. Military, Abroad
Allen Shindler - 27 October 1995
Louisiana
Gay Pride Day 1973 - The Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans was destroyed by afirebomb. Thirty People were killed.
North Carolina, 6 August 1993 -
A soldier from Fort Bragg entered a restaurant and, in response to President Clinton's attempt to end the ban
on homosexuals in the military, opened fire.
Eightpeople were wounded.
Killed were:
James F. Kidd, 46
Peter Parrous, owner, 73
Ethel Parrous, 65
Wesley Scott, 26
Charlotte Wetzel was 16 months old when she was murdered in 1998 by her day care provider.
Matthew Shepard was 21 years old. He was tortured
and subsequently died from his injuries in October of 1998.
His face was covered in blood except where tears flowed.
Tortured and left to die because he was gay.
We have not received word from his family as to whether they will participate in the hike from Alaska to Wyoming to raise awareness and funds for the Foundation they have set up in his name.
byrd.jpg (9621 bytes)
Jim Byrd was a victim of racial motivated violence
and was brutally murdered in 1998 by being tied and dgragged
behind a vehicle for over a mile and a half.
billc_hp.gif (18782 bytes)
Bill Clayton
1978-1995
Another child driven to suicide
and his incredible mom.
"When you come to the edge of all that you have known, there
will be two possibilities awaiting you: There will be
something solid to stand on or you will be
taught how to fly."
-- A Turtle Creek Chorale member
(After Goodbye: an AIDSStory, PBS)
Robbie Kirkland "Remember Me"
This page tells an incredible story that is far too common.
Please visit.
Robert Drake
Robert Drake, A prominent American writer on gay themes was severely beaten on January 31 in Silgo, Ireland. His
condition was improving slightly, but he remained in critical
condition. His current health is not known.
Billy Jack Gaither
Billy Jack Gaither was brutally beaten to
death with an ax handle by two men, then his body set
ablaze on a pyre of old tires. He was
from Sylacauga, Alabama, and was killed on
February 19, 1999. He was 39 years of age.
Allison was my daughter's best friend. Sadly, she took her own life, at age 16. She is missed by all who knew and loved her.
http://www.stophate.us/victims.html
And Japanrock's article links to this pertinent article.
Japanrocks12
tired of being a man
Guys, stop it, you're destroying his little privileged bubble where nothing bad happens to anyone.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Bull! Or, more appropriately, BACON!
I call bacon on this whole line of argument.
Divorce is legal, adultery is legal (in many places, or at least it is a civil matter, not a criminal offense) and yet those things are prohibited AND CURRENT in your Bible.
So please, don't sell me that snake oil. It's rubbish. Rubbish covered in delicious bacon.
Laws are not meant for preventing Sin. There are many, many sins, sexual or otherwise, which are perfectly legal. And, outside of religion, you're going to have a very very hard time convincing anyone that gay couples are sinful.
So, religious argument: BOGUS
moral argument: irrelevant at best, nonsense at worst.
legal argument: No leg to stand on.
But two girls wrestling in bacon is divine.
What in the world does "prohibited AND CURRENT" even mean?
I'm discussing morality, not legality. I never said that secular laws are, or should be, intended for the prevention of sin. I'm not sure where you're getting this. (And yes, it would be difficult to convince people of anything involving sin outside of a religious context, since sin is an exclusively religious concept. It's not exactly the same as morality or ethics, which do have secular meanings.)
You haven't really addressed any of these except perhaps the last one, and even then rather bizarrely and ineffectively. Are you going to present actual, coherent arguments? Or just sort of declare yourself victorious without addressing anything I said at all?
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Means, unlike other "Old Testament" dodges, divorce and adultery are still supposed to be not allowed in the New Testament.
So you can't suggest that other things the Bible calls sinful no longer apply to Christians, and that's why they're legal now. Other things which are prohibited in the current religious laws are not prohibited by the state.
Well, since gay folks are stigmatized far more than divorced people, explain to me why that is so?
Why is some other "sin" less focused on by the champions of christian virtue, which actually affect christian marriages, but other "sins" which have nothing to do with you focused on?
It's scapegoating, and it's double standards, and its bigotry.
Point out a single, solitary, coherent argument anyone has ever said about why we should condemn gay people for being gay, deny them rights, or consider them less morally virtuous than ourselves.
Just one logical, rational argument. All I want is one.
I see -- that makes more sense. Sort of.
It's true that things the Bible says are sinful are often legal. (It would be hard to outlaw pride, for instance.) Others are illegal -- like murder or rape or theft. Your initial comment, and my response, had to do primarily with sin -- why don't we stay on that subject, instead of switching over to the law?
I think there's probably a couple of reasons. For one thing, yeah, lots of Christians are just hypocrites, or just behave badly. But some divorces are legitimate. And it's harder to know who is divorced and who isn't than it is to tell who is gay (Or rather, in a gay relationship). And yes, some of it is just that many believe it's worse to have gay sex than it is to get a divorce. You can disagree, but no one says sins actually have to all be treated the same. (Should we treat stealing a candy bar and murder as equal sins? I think not. Which means you can quibble with how sins are thought of in relation to each other, but not that some are thought of as more serious.)
I was talking about my arguments in my last post. But, I guess it would depend on precisely what you mean by what you're asking. As it's phrased, I wouldn't say there are any. But I think that's more to do with your poor phrasing than anything. (Or perhaps your poor understanding of my position; I'm not sure which.)
Congratulations, there are crazy people in the world, women murdering their children, rapists, paedophiles, people commit acts of terrorism, people do other atrocities, life moves on. Is it common? No, but in a country of more than 300 million their are plenty of whack jobs.
I didn't know Iraq, Iran, Canada, Mexico and Sierra Leone were in the US, thanks for informing me!
I also didn't know that feminism=homosexuality, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know being black was the same as being homosexual, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know people killing babies and infants is stoning homosexuals, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know that people committing suicide is the same as stoning them for being homosexual, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated for being homosexual and that being shot is the same as stoning, thanks for informing me!
etc...
I didn't know Iraq, Iran, Canada, Mexico and Sierra Leone were in the US, thanks for informing me!
I also didn't know that feminism=homosexuality, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know being black was the same as being homosexual, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know people killing babies and infants is stoning homosexuals, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know that people committing suicide is the same as stoning them for being homosexual, thanks for informing me!
I didn't know Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated for being homosexual and that being shot is the same as stoning, thanks for informing me!
etc...
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
How many of these were stoned? 'Cause I do believe that was the question you were replying to.
Also, how does one determine one is a 'unidentified gay man'? It would seem to me that your source has a bit of bias to it, and some of those incidents may not be accurately portrayed by that website.
The point is that hate leads to murder and persecution. The point is that claiming that people should be discriminated against because they are different justifies, in the minds of the bad people of the world, murder and persecution.
The point is that by pretending there is some moral justification for discrimination, you create a "moral justification" for persecution and murder.
The point is that people die because you won't allow them to be free.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Oh please.
This isnt about freedom. Never has been, so it does no good what-so-ever to try and sell such propaganda. Its too over the top for the situation at hand.What it is about is the desire to make the non-normative the norm. And the push-back to that effort. That is all.
Oh please.
What it is about is the desire to make the non-normative the norm. And the push-back to that effort. That is all.
Freedom is the only thing it has even been about. The people who support freedom support gay marriage. The people who oppose freedom oppose it.
Freedom is the only issue.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Yeah, again, nice catch phrases, nice attempt to pull those strings. But I dont bye it. Neither do a lot of other people who know full well this isnt about 'freedom' anymore than it is about puppy chow.
But I like the 'anyone who opposes freedom oppose it' Very McCarthy-esqe of the movement.
Moderator Action: 'Nice attempt to pull those strings' brings into question Cutlass' motives (as does your previous post in which you accuse him of selling propaganda), and is trolling. No need to make it personal. Discuss the topic and not the poster.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
If by "non-normative", you mean treating gay people no differently than straight people, then yes, that should be the norm, obviously.
Askthepizzaguy
Know the Dark Side
Certainly.
Let's set aside the fact that what is considered sinful varies between religions, and within religions. Let's set aside the fact that "sin" isn't even a concept in all religions, and it certainly isn't a concept for those who aren't religious.
Since there is no one authority on what is sinful, that means whenever sin is being discussed, it's an opinion. Opinions are fine to debate, but hard to force onto others.
While a sect of a religion can consider homosexuality sinful, unless its contained within that community, it's an overreach. It would be like jewish folks suggesting to YOU that YOU cannot eat bacon. Or islamic folks suggesting YOU need to pray five times a day.
It's an overreach. You do what you must to please your god as it pertains to you. Once you start discussing other people, and how god will judge them, that's between them and god. The state has no business interfering, and frankly, religious groups have no business harassing them about it.
So let's talk about sin. What's left to discuss? How is it a sin? I know how it's considered a sin, and why, and I disagree that it is a sin. I agree that it's fine for people to think things are sins, but trying to push that onto others, I don't agree with, outside of passive and non-harassing proselytizing.
Actually, the Bible discusses two kinds of sin, the unforgiveable kind, (there are very few, either one or two, mentioned in the Bible) and the forgiveable kind.
After that, it says LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE.
It also says, can't mention where exactly, that all sin is the same in the eyes of God. So those who consider themselves less sinful than others are prideful, which is also a sin.
It also says JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED.
Apparently, the message isn't getting through to people. They consider their sins lesser, not leaving it up to God to judge these people, and consider it their place to condemn homosexuals or homosexuality or prevent them from being able to freely sin. Guess what? That's not what the Bible tells you to do. Not the current one, anyway. The OT might call for murder and slaughter and torture and stoning, but the NT abolishes all of that.
So, let's talk about sin. What makes theirs so bad, and yours (rhetorical "yours") so great?
Nowhere in the Bible does it say a thief who doesn't repent will get off easier than a gay person who doesn't repent.
You're putting your own opinions into the matter. And once you do that, outside the defined parameters of sin in religion, then we're talking about morality and ethics, not sin.
Once you do that, it's a different discussion. And let's talk about morality and ethics. You'll have to show me what is so darned immoral or unethical about two people falling in love, not hurting anyone, and living together. Or, having the right to see each other in the hospital the same as anyone else.
Explain it to me. No one ever has.
Okay, I feel you're dodging my challenge. But I'll address this.
Except, very few of those other sins are innate to the marriage itself. I may be a thief, but that's quite apart from my identity or duties as a hypothetical husband. But if I'm a husband with a husband, then the sin is pretty much essential to the marriage bond -- thus nullifying it.
If you want a parallel, think about bigamy. Traditionally if a man marries a second wife while married to the first he's sinning, and because this sin is so fundamental to the marriage his second marriage is invalid. It's not a perfect parallel, but it does show sins that relate to the essential aspects of marriage are different from other sins.
- There are other sins which involve marriage
- Those other sins are not condemned, they're tolerated
- Those other sins are even allowed to happen by certain churches
- Those other sins are legal
- There are arguments put forth which suggest in some situations its not sinful
Further, marriage is not a religious institution. I'm an atheist, and I can get married, and I will be extremely offended if you suggest that unless I believe in a higher power, my marriage is any less valid or meaningful than anyone else's.
So I'm tired of religious people claiming a monopoly on marriage (or morality for that matter) because it's not true, never was true, and is wholly bogus in its entirety.
You can have religion-based marriages, but it's not a requirement. Legal marriages involve the state. The state is secular for a reason.
But this isn't even a gay marriage thread. This is about homophobia. What is homophobic? Treating this particular sin like it's the worst sin, the only sin that matters, or worse, the sin that's threatening the family.
That's nonsense. You can call it a sin if you like (that's your opinion) but there's no rational cause to suggest it's a threat to you or anyone else anywhere, anytime, ever. And there's a really big case as to why it's not such a bad thing, because it doesn't harm people, like I dunno.... adultery, or stealing, or fraud, or bombing people.
Where's the crusade to end adultery? Where's the consistency? Why are the gays the only sinners that warrant billions spent suppressing their activities or rights?
Explain that to me.
I've already shown where religious arguments are null and void and internally inconsistent with regard to legality. That's done. You won't even challenge me on that point, so we agree.
So, that means, there's no religious argument which can prevent gay rights from happening legally.
Let's talk about morality, which is a secular issue. I can challenge you until the day I die that homosexuality is immoral at all, or any more immoral than anything you do every single day. And in the end, we may disagree. But you've certainly got no authoritative argument which has ended the debate on homosexuality even being immoral. I can point out how outrageously and fundamentally hypocritical it is to persecute homosexual behavior as immoral, without so much as typing a complete sentence. I won't even have to try, you already know, it's entirely hypocritical.
So, let's talk about ethics. Ethics is entirely on the side of the homosexual couple's rights in this situation, because there is no ethical reason to deny them visitation rights, or civil union-type rights that other couples enjoy, barring the taxation argument for now, as it's a separate topic.
I'm talking about how is it ethical to deny them basic, rational privileges family members and spouses enjoy? It's not.
Ethics? There is no argument.
Religion? Can't touch the law, and doesn't apply to them.
Morality? Bring on the rational argument. I want to see it.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
No, I mean a sub-set of society (around 3 to 5 percent) that exhibits a behavior that the vast majority (95% or so) doesnt. Said small percentage wants to change the other 95% over to their viewpoint that what they do is 'normal'. Other 95% tend to disagree.
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