Let's Discuss Poland

[m4gill4]

We already did this one, you ignore the thousands of years of history and then totally fail to respond when people give you a wealth of information. I see from another of your replies that you've learned something having quoted about Aksum etc... and I can tell from your character that you have too much pride to say that you were wrong, but if you want to ignore facts and believe your prejudices that's fine. Making attacks on human tragedy however, is unacceptable.

I would like to point out that Ethiopia, while presently kind of a crap-hole, has a long and rich history which deserves to be included in Civ. Haile Sellasie I, Emperor of Ethiopia, was a true statesman who sought to bring peace to africa, and bring dignity and respect to black people worldwide. It is unfortunate that his country was invaded by fascist Italy during WWII, the after-effects of which led to his being overthrown by a typical African military dictatorship.

He is one example of a great leader of Ethiopia, and the most recent. However, evil-twin, I would remind you that empires and nations rise and fall, wax and wane. Just because Ethiopia is a miserable hellhole now (and you are correct about that) doesn't mean that there was never an important or admirable culture there. Indeed, many cultures there for a time surpassed many European nations in their wealth, literacy, human rights, and education. It was only with the advent of gunpowder, first introduced to Islamic Morocco, but later used by the colonial powers, which led to the systematic subjugation, enslavement, and colonization/occupation of Ethiopia and Africa in general.

Kinda like if you were going for a cultural victory, but then Monty suddenly invades you empire with a huge stack of riflemen while you only have longbowmen to defend yourself. Doesn't mean your empire was meaningless, just that you got your ass kicked.

 

[Spearthrower]

Now - there's a reply based on facts with some critical analysis (not unfounded opinions) thrown in.... I can't dispute any of that.



If people posted like that, we'd have a community based on educating each other and improving our knowledge of the world, rather than reiterating close-minded prejudism.

 

[Phrederick]

The only reason there's so much discussion about Poland is that some Poles feel like they need representation in a computer game to validate their country and nationalism. I really don't understand it; if the US wasn't in the game I wouldn't care at all, but I guess some Poles are just a little less secure in their nation's standing internationally.

 

[Arlborn]

The only reason there's so much discussion about Poland is that some Poles feel like they need representation in a computer game to validate their country and nationalism. I really don't understand it; if the US wasn't in the game I wouldn't care at all, but I guess some Poles are just a little less secure in their nation's standing internationally.

Now you tell me if there weren't going to be 234679 threads about it, if America was not in the game?
I thought Americans were mostly known for their ultra-nationalism.
Of course, there is exceptions, such as you.

 

[Dennis_Moore]

Now - there's a reply based on facts with some critical analysis (not unfounded opinions) thrown in.... I can't dispute any of that.



If people posted like that, we'd have a community based on educating each other and improving our knowledge of the world, rather than reiterating close-minded prejudism.

But Selassie was Emperor after WWII as well, so I would dispute part of the post you are referring to.

 

[DemonMaster]

Selassie was overthrown by the military 74' (or something like that). He founded OAU (Organization of African Unity) now replaced by AU (African Union) in order to bring peace to the continent, lets say he ment well, but failed. He died under mysterious conditions 75'

 

[Spearthrower]

But Selassie was Emperor after WWII as well, so I would dispute part of the post you are referring to.

Sorry Dennis, but where does m4gill4 say that he wasn't?

He said that the "after-effects" of WWII caused a typical African style coup and military replacement. Whether that is true or not, it is critical analysis I referred to. It is hard to be specific why he was ultimately overthrown - there are plenty of possible reasons.... almost certainly part of it was the weakening of the state from foreign military interference.

 

[RedRalph]

Hmm... Haille Selassie and fundamentalist Rastafarians had some pretty unfriendly view towards Gays and the Caucasian race in general... its not too well publicised, but they were pretty hate-mongering themselves...

 

[Spearthrower]

Everybody's got their ....isms

Given their orthodox religiousness, it's not surprising about the former... and the excesses of imperialism also tended to produce some rather unfriendly feelings!

 

[RedRalph]

Everybody's got their ....isms

Given their orthodox religiousness, it's not surprising about the former... and the excesses of imperialism also tended to produce some rather unfriendly feelings!

Irrelevant. Thats the same notion that leads some Poles to hate Russians, Iraqis to hate all westerners, SE Asians and Chinese to hate all Japanese... racism cant be excused for the downtrodden anymore than it can be excused for the mighty IMO

 

[Spearthrower]

Oh I didnt mean it as a justification, but as an explanation!

 

[RedRalph]

Fair enough. Yeah you can usually explain most biases if you look back far enough...


I 'm glad ot have finally strted a long thread! after almost 600 post.... theres 180,000 Poles here in Ireland, everytime I see one (I can spot them cause of the dirty looks they give me for wearing a red army badge ;-) I keep wanting to ask them "If there was a computer game where you play as a nation, trying and conquer the world, build fantastic world wonders, which one would you favour?" they might think I wasnt the full shilling

 

[Dennis_Moore]

Sorry Dennis, but where does m4gill4 say that he wasn't?

He said that the "after-effects" of WWII caused a typical African style coup and military replacement. Whether that is true or not, it is critical analysis I referred to. It is hard to be specific why he was ultimately overthrown - there are plenty of possible reasons.... almost certainly part of it was the weakening of the state from foreign military interference.

Well, technically he doesn't say that, he only fails to mention the long time that passed between reinstatement and overthrow (33 years).

My critical analysis of his post tells me that a more immediate connection was implied (both when it comes to time and causality of events). Besides, to me his post seemed more like general praise than a critical analysis. Still, a critical analysis is after all a subjective process, so my interpretation may stem from my dislike of all kinds of autocracy.

 

[Evil Twin]

First of all, you cast a slur on all the people and now you are redefining that to their leaders.

That's a very different argument. Saying that their leadership has not risen to the challenge of their famine situation and has squandered international aid is not tantamount to the people being "too stupid to feed themselves" - that's not blunt, it's nasty. Making fun of people who have suffered so much is nothing to do with political correctness or not, but to do with being brought up to have respect for other humans.

Yes it is, because these fools follow their warlords and leaders and then complain when they starve to death.
The people of the U.S. get blamed for Bush, and I blame the people of Ethiopia for their half assed leadership. They don't even try to change it, they're sheep.

We already did this one, you ignore the thousands of years of history and then totally fail to respond when people give you a wealth of information. I see from another of your replies that you've learned something having quoted about Aksum etc... and I can tell from your character that you have too much pride to say that you were wrong, but if you want to ignore facts and believe your prejudices that's fine. Making attacks on human tragedy however, is unacceptable.

I can admit when I'm wrong when in fact I am wrong. Ethiopia's meager victories against minor European powers count for diddly squat.
Do you honestly think that if the full might of the British Empire had come down on them they'd have won?

 

[Evil Twin]

'Mr. Shaka fought off the british and that's why he's the greatest leader in civ.. seventy years after he died'

Quite an accomplishment if i do say so myself. I guess you believe in zombies and ghouls along with your apollo program.

Some reading would do you well.

I realise you're bitter over being so overwhelmingly schooled over the whole faked moon landing silliness that you have to latch on to any unrelated mistake but since I already admitted I was mistaken, your point is moot.
If the only way you can legitimise your argument is to point out the flaws in an entirely unrelated discussion.. you're basically admitting you don't have a leg to stand on.

Moderator Action: Warned - Flaming!
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I also question someone that comes out with so much anger and obvious ignorance on a message board unable to even ponder an idea or opinion without accepting it, all you can do is sit there knowing what you know while you tell us all how it is. I wonder are you from poland by chance.. because if so your not representing your people very well. I also wonder why izzy is your avatar, I somehow doubt it's because your a women and more so because it's the one thing you haven't touched.. just don't flush your socks when your done.. it backs up the plumbing.. if you even have that where you live, you obviously need some release and some knowledge of things that come outside pixel form.

This is so funny I just have to quote it without comment.

 

[Spearthrower]

I can admit when I'm wrong when in fact I am wrong. Ethiopia's meager victories against minor European powers count for diddly squat.
Do you honestly think that if the full might of the British Empire had come down on them they'd have won?

Of course not... but at the time, not many countries in the world would have won against the British Empire.

Italy was a major power at that time, and while they obviously didnt throw *everything* at them... and they did eventually "win".... the contest was fought exceptionally well for an African country of the day.

 

[cybrxkhan]

being a major superpower has NOTHING to do with whether you can win a war or not.

take America in Vietnam for example, or Mongolia in Japan, or the Romans in Ancient Germania.

what really matters is the brains, brawn, and plain determination.

 

[Evil Twin]

Of course not... but at the time, not many countries in the world would have won against the British Empire.

Italy was a major power at that time, and while they obviously didnt throw *everything* at them... and they did eventually "win".... the contest was fought exceptionally well for an African country of the day.

Italy was significant, but compared to the might of the British and French of the time it was in fact minor.

 

[Evil Twin]

being a major superpower has NOTHING to do with whether you can win a war or not.

take America in Vietnam for example, or Mongolia in Japan, or the Romans in Ancient Germania.

what really matters is the brains, brawn, and plain determination.

America and Rome lacked the will to expand. America could have bombed Vietnam into the stone age. Rome could have sent Legion after Legion to butcher the barbarians into submission. They simply didn't want to, be it for reasons of morality, international outrage or in Rome's case the cost of over-expansion.
Mongolia was just unlucky.

 

[Dennis_Moore]

being a major superpower has NOTHING to do with whether you can win a war or not.

take America in Vietnam for example, or Mongolia in Japan, or the Romans in Ancient Germania.

what really matters is the brains, brawn, and plain determination.

And having the Divine Wind on your side.