Let's Discuss Poland

[Ahimsadharma]

I have not read much about Poland but I find Poland to be a fascinating culture from Europe.
I have no idea when exactly Poland became civilized ( i use this word loosely and not in a superioristic way but to denote permanent settlements along with agriculture & systematic trade & education), probably some time in the last 2000 years but they've had an interesting time from what i can tell.

The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth i noticed was quite powerful, rich and well developed for its time along with a society that (for its time) was the most progressive & liberal in Europe.
It was rather sad that Polish power was not a strong fixture throughout history but the biggest reason for that is not any shortcommings of Poland and its people but a rather sad truth : Poland was stuck between several powerful tribes/nations who all wanted to carve Poland up simultaneously for their own gains.
First the Germainic tribes, then Huns, then Vikings, then Swedes/Holy Roman Empire Germans/Russia/Prussia/Denmark/Austro-Hungary/Germany/Soviet Union- all were continously chomping at Poland.
Its rather sad that Poland has been the 'Afghanistan of Europe' historically speaking. Ie, a rather decent piece of land with an sizeable history and a rather glorious period of self rule, even if it was pretty short, but mostly dominated by foreign powers trying to carve it up.

Hell, If there is one reason i like the Polish, its coz i loved the game Medieval: Total War and I mostly played as Egypt/Turkey/Byzantines and Poland was one of the FEW never to crusade on me senselessly!

 

[Tortilla Boy]

^?!?!?!?!?!?!? WTH??!?!?!?!?!?

Oh, that reminds me that Poland actually is somehow a part of Beyond the Sword Expansion - in Road to War scenario That's probably the right time to say "Thank you", because in Civ 2 WW2 it started after Russo-German division of Poland.

So, it would be just rude to call a polonophobes all those guys up there... (in Maryland, ah... )

 

[dutchking]

I think Poland had a fair chance of getting in Beyond the Sword. They just didn't make the final cut... but I'm pretty sure that they were considered. Firaxis already gave them an official flag ^^.


Personally, I think Poland really deserves to be in. After all, they were a powerful and well educated empire during the middle ages and at the time of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. On top of this, a second Slavic civilization would be nice. Just Russia is not enough .

Where'd you find that flag??!

^?!?!?!?!?!?!? WTH??!?!?!?!?!?

I agree.

 

[aronnax]

I have not read much about Poland but I find Poland to be a fascinating culture from Europe.
I have no idea when exactly Poland became civilized ( i use this word loosely and not in a superioristic way but to denote permanent settlements along with agriculture & systematic trade & education), probably some time in the last 2000 years but they've had an interesting time from what i can tell.

The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth i noticed was quite powerful, rich and well developed for its time along with a society that (for its time) was the most progressive & liberal in Europe.
It was rather sad that Polish power was not a strong fixture throughout history but the biggest reason for that is not any shortcommings of Poland and its people but a rather sad truth : Poland was stuck between several powerful tribes/nations who all wanted to carve Poland up simultaneously for their own gains.
First the Germainic tribes, then Huns, then Vikings, then Swedes/Holy Roman Empire Germans/Russia/Prussia/Denmark/Austro-Hungary/Germany/Soviet Union- all were continously chomping at Poland.
Its rather sad that Poland has been the 'Afghanistan of Europe' historically speaking. Ie, a rather decent piece of land with an sizeable history and a rather glorious period of self rule, even if it was pretty short, but mostly dominated by foreign powers trying to carve it up.

Hell, If there is one reason i like the Polish, its coz i loved the game Medieval: Total War and I mostly played as Egypt/Turkey/Byzantines and Poland was one of the FEW never to crusade on me senselessly!

The carving part was more at the end of the 18th century so i disagree with you on that bit. Also Afganistan was being competed by two powers, you should have said china instead, 5 powers

 

[Chiyu]

The Polish flag can be found on Warlords_Atlas_2.dds (C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Assets\Art\Interface\Buttons), between the Mamluk and Hungarian flags, third row, second line.
The flag (and the Polish civilization itself) has been used in the Warlords scenario Genghis Khan. But don't get your hopes up too much - The Polish Kingdom lacks a UU and UB and it's leader Duke Henry the Pious uses the same graphics as Peter the Great ...
Still, it's a start...

 

[dutchking]

^Damit! You were supposed to keep it private! Please edit your post. Clear up the info. Especially for our mod. Pleassssse?

 

[Tortilla Boy]

If you read the whole article carefully, it does state that a large portion of boyars was on the side of Poland and wanted to get the Polish king to rule Russia, even before Klushino.

Yup. And there are two main types of reaction in Poland to that fact:
a)What if... Ladislaus IV daddy wasn't such a zealot. Well, it's only "if";
b)It's the worst decision ever made by Polish king to engage oficially in that matter and send Polish troops there, because it made us arch-enemies from now on forever. Everything after that is like "payback time".

There was no battle for Moscow, there was no siege of Moscow, Moscovites didn't even know what was going on. It was the time of troubles when all sorts of boyar families were competing for the Russian throne, sometimes seeking powerful allies to help them (i.e. Poland).

Yes, that's true, it would never had happened if Polish army had encountered stright-forward resistance from all boyars, without any help from inside. The fact is, relations between Muscovite and Polish nobles were good before then, and Polish was used in diplomacy. What I meant was - it's not like some guy dropped by in Krakow and said "Hey, we have vacancies, care to apply for Tzar position?", and just then "Sorry, this position have been already filled, your CV rejected". It did take some effort on behalf of king, and that's when all things got out of control. Actually, this decision - to intervene, had one great flaw: It's OK when you are a High Noble from Lithuanian Kresy, mustering a band of troops to become a Tzar, just because it's not far away. But to think that you could rule both Russia and Commonwealth is insane in that times - just because it's soooooo far away, Lithuanian swamps and deep forests in the middle. Even if one had some plans for that land, orders would travel for months.
So, all this situation was uncomfortable for Poland as a state, just because Polish nobles found a new playground for themselves. It wasn't some Grand-Master-Plan. It was common thing to force rule in Voivodships by mustering some free-handed low-nobility (let's say 1000-5000 nobles), just that it had gone out, through the borders. And it was constant fighting, engaging all the manpower inside the country (around half of milion people, nobles - in that time, when Louis XIV mustered such force in one single campaign he just went bankrupt). It's not surprising that later on, demographically, Poland could wage wars both with Sweden, Russia and Turkey. It's surprising that those wars were fought while most of the manpower was engaged in interior fights. Just because the Commonwealth was a Cosmos for itself.

I mean it took a Volunteer Army to free Moscow.[/QUOTE ]

Well, that's mainly because Polish hetmans usually were uber-tacticians, able to aply in battle almost any scheme known since the Ancients (they did waste time to read the books, and delve upon intricacies of other armies battle tactics) but simply sucked at strategy. When it came to pillaging they were able to make 5 000 km "zagon" (making a circle through a territory). But to hold other country's capital, without supplies, far away from bigger cities in own land, it's impossible, especially when things turn bad, and army is demoralised. Let's put it straight - most of the time they were drunk and abusive to local people. Classic.

So it is true to say that the Polish forces occupied Moscow, but it is not true to say that they captured Moscow.

Not Moscow itself, but it wasn't a Sunday morning walk to the local church either.

As for the national day, yeah sure I personally think it must be very flattering. But it's all for the show, just an attempt to get some sort of a national idea in Russia, I mean all the ex-communist countries celebrate the day they became free from the Soviets.

True. I'm not of a sort of nationalist (actually I'm a type of Pole, who is hated by his current government), I just like the idea of Poland in Civ, so dropped by and wrote a few words (not that it's some pressing matter), because what disturbs me most in this sort of discusions are historical misunderstandings (that goes for both - different points of view and common mistakes).

Oh, and it would be nice if Leader of Poland was Queen Hedwig, cause she was waaaaay better ruler (and more sexy) then those other guys commonly advertised

 

[Tortilla Boy]

The flag (and the Polish civilization itself) has been used in the Warlords scenario Genghis Khan. But don't get your hopes up too much - The Polish Kingdom lacks a UU and UB and it's leader Duke Henry the Pious uses the same graphics as Peter the Great ...
Still, it's a start...

In Roads to War they didn't get them either And President Moscicki is a modified Napoleon, LOL.

 

[Tortilla Boy]

Which leads me to a broader point. It is not right for someone to insult or think lesser-of another nation. Without understanding them, how can you possibly judge? I always get upset when I read reasonings to why Canada shouldn't be in the game, not because Canada should be in the game, but because the "facts" are completely wrong.

Point taken. It's only a game, but I made an effort to read first 11 pages in this thread and I want to say: just because some Heads in the Clouds About Their Country Poles spam this forum doesn't give the other people right to write some reeeealy nasty things about Poland, people in Poland, or any other country (here comes stuff about Ethiopia ... ). Why go bad and write all this "I'm so witty because I don't give a sh***" stuff if they really don't?

It's not that bad if they just come crapping about countries, it's atrocious when they start to write what they "know" about my country. It's frightening. It's just like that (apart from the conclusions about Frenchmen...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxmHEGy7JUU

 

[Ahimsadharma]

The carving part was more at the end of the 18th century so i disagree with you on that bit. Also Afganistan was being competed by two powers, you should have said china instead, 5 powers

I think you will find that Poland's comparison with Afghanistan is on the basis that it is situated between historic crossroads between two important regions of Europe : The northern plains of Poland is the only access point on flat ground that connects the plains and rolling hills of western Europe with the vast flatlands of Eastern Europe. Otherwise it involves crossing rugged mountain ranges, snowbound in the winter and easily defendable in the summers.
Afghanistan's geography is of similar magnitude- itself not a vast land but lies on a very strategic location connecting three vast formations- the hills and deserts of Persia, the deserts & meadows of central Asia and the abundant lushes of the subcontinent.
And similar to Afghanistan, Poland has been 'whacked down' by several waves of foreign power in its history- as chronological as i can get, Poland first experienced massive migrations from Germanic tribes (often in violent & genocidal fashion) circa 100BC/100AD and then 200-300 yrs later, Atilla showed up with his Hunnic hoardes & ravaged most of Poland.That was soon followed by the 'northern crusades' ,where the catholic church unleashed havoc & genocide on the 'pagans'. Few hundred years later, Poland felt the ravages of Mongols. Several hundred years of peace ensued (with Jagellonians, Polish-lithuanian commonwealth, etc) and continuous progress took Poland places but yet again, it got smashed into bits over the last 200- years.
So in respect to this, i find Poland's history & significance in European context similar to that of Afghanistan's in Asia (though i feel Afghanistan's magnitude is far more pronounced). China i feel is incomparable to any single European nation and its only comparison can come from India, since no nation exists today that has anywhere close to the cultural, historical, linguistic & philosophical depth & continuity as India or China. I find India/China far easier and accurate to compare/contrast with the European Union (though China's is sort of putting Stallin in charge of the EU).

Ofcourse, my viewpoint may be based on deficient information and i am sure it has scope for further refinement. But at the same time, i am not keen to get on a nationalistic side of the debate- IMO, nationalism is a weird concept as it is but not all national blocks are the same.

 

[Spearthrower]

Point taken. It's only a game, but I made an effort to read first 11 pages in this thread and I want to say: just because some Heads in the Clouds About Their Country Poles spam this forum doesn't give the other people right to write some reeeealy nasty things about Poland, people in Poland, or any other country (here comes stuff about Ethiopia ... ). Why go bad and write all this "I'm so witty because I don't give a sh***" stuff if they really don't?

It's not that bad if they just come crapping about countries, it's atrocious when they start to write what they "know" about my country. It's frightening. It's just like that (apart from the conclusions about Frenchmen...):

Very much agreed Tortilla Boy, unwarranted flaming of another nation is inexcusable.

To give a little more explanation (please note this is not an attempt at justification).... you may not have noticed the full extent of the problem here having just joined. We have a few very vociferous Poles who insist that Poland be unanimously recognised for practically every important discovery and human advance. We get posters trying to glorify Poland in threads with no relation to Poland whatsoever. This tends to get people's goats... and over a period of time, they make more and more absurd statements in order to counter the falsifications touted as truth and claims of ignorant Western Europeans for not knowing them.

While any inflammatory remarks undermining another nation are definitely rude, there is something to be said about people setting themselves up as targets for it too.

Good to see someone who can talk about Polish history in a frank and balanced manner!

Welcome

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Which leads me to a broader point. It is not right for someone to insult or think lesser-of another nation. Without understanding them, how can you possibly judge? I always get upset when I read reasonings to why Canada shouldn't be in the game, not because Canada should be in the game, but because the "facts" are completely wrong.

Well put. This ignorance applies also to "discussions" about one certain leader who is not and probably never will be in the official game.

 

[TheLastOne36]

First the Germainic tribes, then Huns, then Vikings, then Swedes/Holy Roman Empire Germans/Russia/Prussia/Denmark/Austro-Hungary/Germany/Soviet Union- all were continously chomping at Poland.
Its rather sad that Poland has been the 'Afghanistan of Europe' historically speaking. Ie, a rather decent piece of land with an sizeable history and a rather glorious period of self rule, even if it was pretty short, but mostly dominated by foreign powers trying to carve it up.

And yet, we have never been conquered singal handedly ounce.

 

[Molon Labe]

And yet, we have never been conquered singal handedly ounce.

I don't understand this point you keep making. If you were conquered, you were conquered. Does it really make much difference to split hairs as to who did it? I imagine you weren't ever conquered by French maids riding ostriches either, but it hardly seems relevant.

I have nothing against Poland being in the game simply because I would love to have even more civs. Whether I would rank Poland higher than any other country, I don't know about that. I'd really like to see a South American civ from a time more modern than the current Aztec, Inca and Maya civs.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I don't understand this point you keep making. If you were conquered, you were conquered. Does it really make much difference to split hairs as to who did it? I imagine you weren't ever conquered by French maids riding ostriches either, but it hardly seems relevant.

I have nothing against Poland being in the game simply because I would love to have even more civs. Whether I would rank Poland higher than any other country, I don't know about that. I'd really like to see a South American civ from a time more modern than the current Aztec, Inca and Maya civs.

My Point is, the first time we were ever conquered, it was between 3 mighty empires. Prussia, Russia and Austria, second time was with Nazi Germany and Russia. So that's the point. It takes more then 1 to conquer poland.

I agree with you on the south america part however. Venezuela is the top option for me, with the most important figure in latin american history and possibly the greatest general of all the americas. Simon Bolivar.

 

[Tortilla Boy]

My Point is, the first time we were ever conquered, it was between 3 mighty empires. Prussia, Russia and Austria, second time was with Nazi Germany and Russia. So that's the point. It takes more then 1 to conquer poland.

Meaning probably that it was never annexed [ed: before the partition], because otherwise Mieszko II did get himself seriously whacked up by HR Emperor (it was capitulation - giving up a kingdom status in Middle Ages is one of those "bad things to happen"), and also in time of Mongol Raids - got stomped, even though assisted by forces of HRE. It's not because Poland was so mighty, but because annexing another country requires an ability to rule it after that. Technically possible for someone from Prague or Vienna in that time, but in fact it requires either harsh methods or deception to subjugate Polish nobility (as experienced by Polish kings). Those guys were SO full of themselves.

 

[Breunor]

Also, I think its a bit inaccurate to say that it took the Russians and Germans to defeat Poland in WWII. Germany defeated them badly, the Russian invasion was icing on the cake.

Breunor

 

[Breunor]

ALTERNATE OPINION ON 15th CENTURY

Even Guru's have Guru's. I spoke to a colleague of mine about the 15th century in Europe; this is his 'period' (he comes to me for Greco-Roman history).

Poland fans and anti-fans are both going to find some of this material useful......


When I asked him whom he thought the most powerful country in Europe was in the 15th Century, the first he mentioned was 'Poland - Lithuania'!

I was surprised. But he said I was wrong about the relative power -- he felt that Lithuania was at least as powerful as Poland, and supplied 70% of their troops. The Polish troops were the elite, but a lot of these troops were really Hungarian. He felt Lithuania may have been the greater power. It reallyw as the UNION of Poland and Lithuania that made the powerhouse and it worked as long as they were staying friendly.

I mentioned my views on Castille and Venice.

He disagreed somewhat. It all depends on what we mean by the 15th Century.

He felt that Milan passed Venice. Venice's decline came from the fall of the empire -- while Constantinople stood, the Venician 'empire' was protected. After the empire fell, Venice wealth base was in trouble from the powerhouse Ottomans in the East. Milan, however, had a greater military and controlled the trade routes in the north, with Genoa effectively being its rich vassal. Milan could never match Poland's pure military power, but they had a nioce combination of wealth and troops.

Castille was wracked by civil strife throughout the century. No doubt, once they got their act together, they were very wealthy and powerful. But he also felt that Castille needed 'at least passive' support from Aragon and Leon to really be the Spain that erupted as the world power at the end of the century.

He said I did my ranks somewhat on 'money is power'. And money was power at this period.

But he thinks I was wrong about Venice, and Castille maybe, and I underrated Milan. Maybe Poland also, saying Lithuania was great.

Others to consider: Burgandy was the power in the West, until they were crushed by the Swiss. This brings us to the Swiss. In pure military terms, nothing could match the Swiss pikeman -- but the Swiss military system didn't really make them useful on attack. If you are foolish like the Burgundians and attack Switzerland, you were in trouble, but they rarely moved outside except as the dominant mercenaries of the time.


So, in total, he put Poland-Lithuania first, but maybe I overestimated the Polish part. They were probably first on a military basis. He also said that it was hard for this entity to assert power outside its reagion. As many have said, it was SO BIG, from the Vistula to the Volga to some degree, that they spent all fo their time running around keeping control, it was offten difficicult to exert outside influence.

Venice may have been a mistake, saying that Milan was the other power then. He said if we are talking about the 14th century, then its probably Venice.


Anyway, I thought you might find these alternate views useful.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Ahimsadharma]

And yet, we have never been conquered singal handedly ounce.

You will find that to be most incorrect- Atilla most definitely conquered all of modern Poland, the mongols most definitely reduced Poland to a lame power and the Prussians singlehandedly beat the snot out of the Poles in the 1800s.

 

[cybrxkhan]

even we Viets had our terrible defeats! (though we kicked them out in the end)...

- Han rule for 1000 years
- French rule for 100 years

well, yea, thats the main ones.

there ain't any "immortal" civs, for better or wrose.