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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. odin1981

    odin1981 Chieftain

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    Hey quick question Wastintime? Could you delve into how you build wonders to deny the ai advancement?

    Ty much if and whenever you can not time sensitive or nothing just curious. I have looked as far back as page 115 or so if you have all threads shown on this part of the forum but I can't find pointers about it or obsolete's style either.

    Or if you have a topic somewhere you can direct me to that goes in depth that would be great also.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    These games are "keepers" in the sense that they met my stage I requirements, but I could still have to abandon them. True I still need a couple workers. Odds are in my favor that one of these works out. And if all AI cities are on hills, we'll move on to another game.

    Not sure when I'll stop playing both. I think it's going to confuse me switching back and forth, so I'd like to pick one. Maybe I'll play one to Alpha and then the 2nd. Probably continue post-Alpha with just one.

    I suppose I need a worker before turn 20. And I hope to have two by then.
    I probably wouldn't scrap the game tho as long as I get 2 workers by turn 30. Don't forget, it takes 24 turns, or in my case with no extra hammer, 30 turns! to build one at size 1 :eek:. In an ideal start, I would be size 3 and working 2 golds on turn 40.

    I don't worry about how close the AI is. Using Max opponents means they're not too far. By the time I have a Q army, the area is well scouted. The bigger issue is if they're on a hill or not. I prioritize getting the capital working both golds first, then put out Q's at about 1 every 3 turns. I capture a city as soon has I have enough Q's.

    If these starts don't end up that spectacular, I might seek out a 3rd, but I'll be sure to play that one out past Alphabet before introducing it here. I don't want to take everyone thru a dozen false starts. It would be nice to get one where I settle on a plainshill, etc. And I might need that kind of perfect start to actually launch a spaceship T319.
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Wonders will be a big topic. My 700 AD space thread has a wonder plan, but that's changed a lot for me over the years. When I do discuss it, I'll add links to this and other interesting bits in post #2. The table of Contents.

    As far as denying advancement...That's the opposite of what I do :D
    I want the AI to research as fast as possible. Then trade or steal from them.
    Nearby AIs on the other hand-- I do want to deny them metal and horses.
     
  4. MrGrandiose

    MrGrandiose Chieftain

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    5 stars! Subscribed!
     
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    That's what I was thinking too. If you're going to spend 100+ hours on a game that is designed not just to beat but to destroy the current record, I wouldn't sacrifice ANYTHING in stage I. Would it help you (and us) to list those stage I requirements here?

    So far, the list seems to be:

    Things that can be determined in the first one or two turns with help from Map Finder:
    1. Food (of course)
    2. Double gold (or is it double gold/silver/gems?)
    3. Plans hill start - really helps get the Checker snowball started many turns sooner
    4. On a river?
    5. Others?

    Things that can be determined in the first 10 tuns (you play these out before mentioning the save in this thread):
    1. Mining or The Wheel from a hut?
    2. Mansa not a neighbor?
    3. Others?

    Things that can be determined in the first 30 to 40 turns:
    1. 2 workers stolen?
    2. Nearby capitals on flat land?
    3. Others?

    Of course, you could probably play either of your two current saves and beat the current record based on your WB strategy... But if you're going to put this much effort into it, I would love to see you post a record that will stand FOREVER! :goodjob:
     
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  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Some of what you wrote are nice to have, but not required.

    some forests are nice in the BFC too, but that's almost guaranteed.

    gems are fine too I guess, but it does make early Q production difficult. You'd need to be size 4 instead of 3. I'd have to play a gems start to see how it feels.

    Mansa is not the ideal neighbor, but not a game killer.
    Mining or Wheel are also not required. I do like to get at least one of those or Fish, AH, maybe Masonry.

    As far as a record to stand FOREVER...my Space race is a bit rusty, and I expect to learn even more as I try to use my WB Economy for only the 2nd time. I'm sure I'll end this game saying "I could beat that by 5-10 turns", just like I thought when I got Sushi T281. So I guess that's why I didn't hold out for the plainshill, etc. But since it's not too late to start a 3rd game, I'll run mapfinder while I continue these starts.
     
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  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    MarbleStart Turnset T8-T23

    T8: Washington and Vicky met
    T9: Willy Met
    T10: First Q built. DeGaulle met :thumbsup:
    He gets a thumbsup because he is the best worker steal target. He will talk after just 1 turn of war and most of the other AI in the game don't care how many times I DoW him.
    T12: Fred: Hamburg (as reported earlier, his city is very close)

    T13: Roos
    T14
    : War on Fred. Worker#1 stolen :assimilate: Good timing. Borders pop next turn.
    T15:
    T16:
    T17:
    Cuzco South: (Fred)

    :devil: Hot Tip: Keep 10-20 gold in your cash reserves for events. You can often buy off the bad events. I mention that here because I could pillage Fred for :gold:, but since I got some from a hut, I won't. I'd rather have Fred: 1) build another worker faster and 2) not use that worker to re-camp the Deer.

    Hamburg's Rice seems like a nice place to steal more workers. It's a shame Fred won't own that city for long :mischief:.



    Cuzco West (DeGaulle)

    I hope to steal his worker when it moves to road the Cows.
    The Cows look like a great place to repeatedly steal his workers.

    Sadly, both cities are on hills, so we will ignore him as an early target. On the bright side, we can worker-farm him.



    CeaseFire Fred. Q teleports :devil:Hot Tip

    Teleport example:
    The link above is the teleport rules, etc. In this case, My Q at Berlin-S didn't want to teleport south and likely be trapped. The score on that destination tile is: 17
    Take a look above at the screenshot of Berlin.
    So where will Q teleport? South? or Cuzco-7S? or Cuzco-6S1E?
    Spoiler :
    If you forget to round down the fractions, you might think it goes to Cuzco-7S with a score of : 15
    The teleportDistance is NW, NW, N (two diagonal moves) = 1.5 + 1.5 + 1 = 4
    So, 2*4 + 7 = 15

    Cuzco-6S1E (that's 5 moves south and one diagonal move) = 6.5:
    TeleportDistance is 4.5 but you must round down to 4

    So it's, 2*4 + 6.5 = 14.5 and again round down to 14

    Q will materialize at Cuzco-6S1E


    Worker should do something on the way to the CornFarm.
    T18:
    T19:
    T20: Dow DeGaulle. :assimilate: worker #2
    T21: Met Mansa and Justinian. Set EPs on Mansa (explained in StoneFish start)
    T22: Cease Fire DeGaulle. I decide to pass thru to explore the other side. I hope I don't I'll regret it.

    T23: Met Suleiman
    Researched Mining.

    End of turnset.

    I've spotted 9 gold already:

     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  8. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Berlin looks mediocre. How important is it that the captured capitals also have gold/gems? Do the forests make up for it?

    How bad is it that CDG put both of his cities on hills?
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Berlin: agree. bad food, but like you said, nice forests--they have many uses. Also coastal means possible GreatLighthouse. I may just take Hamburg and leave him alive to make more cities and workers. We'll see what other targets there are. At least I know he can't get horses or metals.

    Speaking of other targets...DeGaulle will just have to provide workers, which is a great use for him. Or maybe his 3rd city will be easy. Neither city looks very good without Animal Husbandry and the gold/corn needs a border pop. Should be nice cities later.
     
  10. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    And I thought your favorite building in the game was the monument! :p
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    My hatred of monuments runs deep. Fortunately, a Terrace is like a granary plus TWO monuments! Which just makes spending 90h on a monument that much more ridiculous.
     
  12. odin1981

    odin1981 Chieftain

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    Cool thank you so much. Sorry that I mixed up the strats each of you is known for. It is kinda hard to find stuff when you need to catch up on 700 pages of threads and info when you can only peruse 5-10 a day.
     
  13. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    WT, can you confirm your city/worker MM for these first few turns? It sounds like you build a Quechua first working max hammers to get it done ASAP. Once the first Quechua is done, you build another one but switch to max food for growth. The worker then improves food (farm) -> Gold #1 -> Gold #2 and as you grow you work food, gold (assuming it's mined already), gold. Is that right? Or do you continue to work max food until you grow to 3 pops and then work food + 2 golds?
     
  14. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    If your goal is to maximize the yield you get from the golds, you want to work farm+mine at size 2. I will measure in hammers and commerce, but if you like you could could measure in gold-turns worked to keep the the numbers simpler albeit with less precision.

    There's actually a simple calculation you can do -- work out what you're missing by spending time at the smaller size, and choose the configuration that minimizes the cost.

    Let's look at the corn start. Your choices are between:
    • 7:food:1:commerce: per turn working rice farm + unfarmed fp
    • 4:food:3:hammers:9:commerce: per turn working rice farm + gold mine
    you need to compare with your target
    • 6:hammers: 17:commerce: per turn
    (I'm ignoring the hammers/gold from the city tile and commerce from the corn, since you get those either way)

    So the two choices boil down to
    • You're missing 6:hammers:15:commerce: per turn over 11 turns = 66:hammers:165:commerce: missed
    • You're missing 3:hammers:8:commerce: per turn over 18 turns = 54:hammers:144:commerce: missed

    Alternatively, (but ignoring roundoff error due to food overflow), you could divide by the excess food rather than count turns until growth, to measure the "price" of a unit of food:

    • You're missing 0.85:hammers:2.14:commerce: per 1:food:
    • You're missing 0.75:hammers:2.00:commerce: per 1:food:

    (yet another alternative for calculation is to cross-multiply; but I find it harder to keep that straight in my head, and isn't as good for comparing more than 2 options)

    Either way, you're missing out on more hammers/gold if you do max food at size 2. And both calculations assumed you got the second mine finished in time for growth; working the mine at size 2 gives you extra time to make sure that happens.

    Of course, the calculus can change if you're looking to a greater time frame where growth to size 4 matters. You might look at it as having the option to pay 12:hammers:21:commerce: in order to get to size 4 seven turns early.

    The rice start works out that you're missing the same amount either way -- but working the mine at size 2 still means you have more time to get the second mine finished, and it means you get some of your initial Quecha's earlier, which I imagine has value here.

    If you actually have so many worker turns available to you that you can have one of the flood plains farmed too, then the rice start is better off working both farms, and the two options give the same result for the corn start.
     
  15. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I've done similar types of calculations in the past. Of course, all of your analysis has to be balanced with building an army of Quechuas and hitting major tech milestones in a timely fashion. In general, food and growth is a priority but not always. For example, an extra Quechua two turns sooner could mean a sooner second or third worker, a sooner AI city capture, etc.

    I guess my question was what WT's typical plan is with these starts. Grow ASAP or work gold #1 ASAP (which likely delays working gold #2). For me, it's often hard to justify working an unimproved FP tile over a mined gold resource.

    In addition, is the plan to farm the FPs or cottage them?
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    @MyOtherName: Great details. I sometimes calculate like that to get the best output, but like Mitchum said, it's a bit of a timing thing this early.

    I grow to work max gold. I don't worry about the first unworked gold. I worry about having the last one unworked. IIRC, my 10 million game had 3 gold, so I grow to size 4 using food + floodplains. I might do food, floodplain, 1 rivergold at size 3. Depends on when the other mines are ready.

    The faster I get to size (maxgold +1), the faster I can get to where the quechua are coming out steadily. It doesn't do a whole lot of good to work one gold and have 4 hammers. That will get me a 3rd or 4th quechua which is not enough to DoW.
    And with all the worker stealing + those Q's you will start to have to pay maintenance--which can be very painful if you did not get gold from a hut. Now you're hurting your progress to BW, writing, etc.

    I'd rather have just 2 Q's, slowly get to 3, then all of sudden have 6, 7, 8

    If I had popped free AnimalHusbandry or Masonry, then I'd grow to size 4 and work cows or stone to get that sudden explosion of quechua. My game having only 7hpt is not going to be very good for that.

    I will surely farm one floodplain for the early game (but not before the golds). More on the capital later.

    I'm always flexible too. For example, if I need to work Corn+gold for a couple turns to get something like The Wheel 1 turn sooner (and my worker could use it 1t sooner).
     
  17. ShiVvV

    ShiVvV Warlord

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    WastinTime I'm really looking forward to this thread and thanks for putting this together and sharing your expertise. I sure hope this isn't a "farewell" thread but...enough of that!

    Would you mind elaborating a bit on your choice of AI opponents? I think this could really be helpful for those of us with not a lot of HoF experience.

    So far we know about: Freddy, Washington, Vicky, WvO, DeG and Roosevelt. I'm expecting Lincoln to show up, maybe Hammy...Mansa of course, perhaps HC.

    It seems to me you are selecting:
    1) non-threatening AIs-- meaning no early scary unique unit (i.e. those not needing metal), no or very few AIs with high build unit probabilities.
    2) no religious zealots? (Except maybe Zara who likes human player on first contact?)
    3) easy to vassal AIs--such as DeGaulle
    4) avoiding Protective AIs--especially someone like SittingBull (hard to vassal) or Toku?
    5) selecting Financial AIs to boost global tech pace?
    6) why all the Americans?...basically because they pretty much suck as threats?
    7) Are there any AIs you specifically select because of their favorite civics--those that like Bureaucracy or Hereditary Rule maybe?
    8) Do you intentionally throw in a warmonger or two and maybe...Gandhi...to generate some animus and provide the warmongers a target? But still trying to arrange your choices so that the other AIs like each other enough to trade tech with each other?
    9) I'd imagine for this type of game you also want AIs that have high WFYABTA thresholds also...?

    When you get a chance...back to my popcorn!
     
  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Your reasoning on opponents is about the same as mine.
    Here's a nice list of opponents from GM-144.

    My comment on that was to exclude Hamm because of Bowmen.
    and include Willy because he likes to trade tech.

    I like a few less 'meat shields' like Brenus than some people.

    This is the first game (maybe ever) that I did not include Gandhi. I cut him along with Isabella and IIRC, Asoka too. I decided to take away some of the religion/Oracle racers this time. Could be a mistake. AI love to hate Gandhi which is nice. But he also gives -2 every time I DoW someone like Fred.

    The creampuff AIs love to hate DeGaulle. I also use Peter for a hate magnet and he also trades tech well. Nice to have a couple in case one dies :mischief:.

    I avoid Protective, Creative (early 20% borders) and to some extent IND
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Worker turn waste.

    This is much more important on Normal speed, but still every bit counts.
    See my stolen worker from the screenshot of the last turnset? (also in spoiler above)

    What are his next moves?
    3 turns of movement, then farm Corn?

    Not sure if this qualifies as a :devil: Hot Tip. Is this common stuff everyone does?
    Spoiler :
    No, we don't want to waste 3 turns moving. We definitely won't delay the cornFarm, and we have to move twice. But we can put 1t in a pFarm, or since we have Wheel, pRoad. (p=partial--if you're not familiar with the notation). What would you do?
    Spoiler :
    I'd pFarm. I don't really want a road at Cuzco-S. I'd prefer SE or SW. If I had to do a road it would be Cuzco-N. But I'd farm. Where would you farm? There are 3 choices.
    Spoiler :
    Corn-SE: no, the next worker is likely coming from DeGaulle so it's better on the other side.

    Corn-SW
    : maybe. DG's worker will need to do something on that tile too.

    Cuzco-S: I'd pFarm here. Why?
    Spoiler :
    Cus I'll probably have at least 2 workers finishing up that gold mine. (I'd do the rivergold first.) The next thing will likely be to finish that pFarm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Teleporting 101

    When a unit is forced to teleport (borders closed, cease fire) out of enemy territory, it jumps from the Origin tile to a Destination tile. It selects the destination tile with the lowest score based on the formula:
    2*teleportDistance + distance to our nearest city (nearest to the origin tile, not the destination tile).
    So it combines a desire to make a small jump with the desire to jump towards the homeland. If the jump is small enough, the unit can teleport away from home.
    Note: Distance counts 1.5 for diagonal moves.
    More precisely (you need to truncate the teleportDistance and the final score...)
    Floor(2* Floor(teleportDistance) + distance)

    For an example, see this turnset.

    Teleporting 201

    In the case of a tie. Tiles are checked from bottom left to bottom right of the entire map. All the tiles on y=0, then y=1, etc.
    The first one found of the tiles that are tied is the destination.
     
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