[BTS] Let's Play - Immortal Hammy

[Jarno]

Interesting discussion people! Moved towards the stone, looks like I'm having 5 FP's (and a desert hill in the fog). Apart from the PHS a bit short on hammers. Might be a hidden resource on the plains tile 2S1W of settler. Think I will settle on the stone for the fast start. Will decide tomorrow.

Spoiler Settler on Stone :

About the save: Ubuntu is quite strict with case-sensitive extensions. I had to rename the file from *.CivBeyondSwordSave to *.civbeyondswordsave in order to upload the file to the forum. Try renaming it back with camelcase applied.

 

[lymond]

ha..yep, that did the trick..

WB save attached..(you can added to the OP if you'd like as well)

...note on WB save..you must add back barb techs - archery, hunting and mining

I don't see any reason why you'd think there is a resource on that tile 2S1W...I mean there could be but there is nothing visible that indicates this one way or another

Like others have said, settling on stone is a great idea, but honestly I would have probably just settled in place given the likelihood of a resource on that grass hill, and the need to move. Regardless, I'd stll want that corn in my BFC.

 

[Imploding]

Thx lymond! I'll definitely try this game tomorrow! Having a relaxing weekend before x-mas, to play som civ 4.I cheated tho.. and watched the SoS settle spot in Jarnos post.

Spoiler :

The spot is nothing special, actually kind of bad. Except the 3 hammer ofc, but I have been convinced! I want to try the SoS opening, with a aggressive leader. It plays perfectly into my play-style, so this will be fun!

Currently working on a other video, but might make a video Lets play of this

 

[Fippy]

Think i would stay on stone, let's be honest 1 farmed floodplain is only 1 food less than dry corn

But like Sampsa, i would probably start with building ~2 agg. warriors on Imm. Pangea and go stealing.

If you start with worker first, time saved would still be okay and makes farming 2 floodplains no biggie.

 

[Imploding]

I agree 1 food less.. is really nothing in the early game. Out of old habbit I guess.. but I'm always looking for the "best capitol possible". And then I don't think the SoS would cut it

But in the end, winning and beating down the civ 4 AI is all that matters... and sometimes the best way is a low food SoS and pumping out a couple of agg warriors,maybe steal a couple of workers.. A fast start might transition into a Axe rush, or something else early war related!!!

 

[Jarno]

I would definitely move, because I have much experience with immortal pangaea and I know how easy it is to crush if you get a fast start. +2 in the early game is massive. Stealing workers is pretty easy on immortal too. 3xp axes with free C1 are decent units too, and with such start you get them fast enough.

Also note that moving 2S is moving towards the equator, as you can see from the trees.

I've been trying more Warrior first starts myself. As sampsa says, it improves your worker stealing chances to have 2 Warriors searching instead of just one. Also, it is better to have 2 Workers, one built and one stolen, improving the capital than just one. I'm thinking mainly faster forest chopping here!

Think i would stay on stone, let's be honest 1 farmed floodplain is only 1 food less than dry corn

But like Sampsa, i would probably start with building ~2 agg. warriors on Imm. Pangea and go stealing.

If you start with worker first, time saved would still be okay and makes farming 2 floodplains no biggie.

I agree 1 food less.. is really nothing in the early game. Out of old habbit I guess.. but I'm always looking for the "best capitol possible". And then I don't think the SoS would cut it

But in the end, winning and beating down the civ 4 AI is all that matters... and sometimes the best way is a low food SoS and pumping out a couple of agg warriors,maybe steal a couple of workers.. A fast start might transition into a Axe rush, or something else early war related!!!

The only times I have not gone worker first were coastal starts. However, with this capital I can pump out a warrior every 3 turns, after which I can still build a worker in 10 turns. With two extra warriors that's still only one turn slower than a 'regular' start, with a heavily increased worker steal chance.

Will play on tomorrow, by settling the capital and starting on some warriors. As for research I tend to go Pottery -> Mining -> BW or maybe delaying pottery until after BW. I'll be farming first anyway so I won't need pottery from the start, but I'd like to lay down some early cottages (helper city 3N(1W?) or west along the river). Early BW however allows some fast chopping action with my (stolen) worker(s). Won't be whipping much with such a food-poor capital. Choices, choices...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I would just farm two floodplains. At Population 2, growth would be 6 Fpt; that is as good as growth of a Population 1 city with an irrigated corn farm. So now we are growing 1 Fpt faster than a city with a dry corn farm.

 

[Lain]

If the aim is to prepare for the step up to Deity, I would not recommend playing around with worker steals too much. Not at this stage at least.

Now obviously it can be done and this game might be a case where it would be viable even on Deity (AGG warriors + super quick start + Pangaea map ... I can absolutely picture AZ, for example, starting warrior first on Deity here), however it becomes riskier and more often than not, the conservative "worker first" will be more prudent on these settings.

With that in mind, I feel there is more to be learned from a "normal" approach. Worker first and practice your play by handling this particular start. While worker stealing is something that can occasionally be done, it is somewhat a niche play on Deity (especially if you play Fractal, for example) and more often than not, it would probably get you in serious trouble. Similarly, playing Inca and rushing the neighbour is easy even on Deity, but probably not the best course of action if the goal is to improve general gameplay (expansion, diplomacy, economy).
For this reason, I would absolutely never Quechua rush, because by doing that I learn absolutely nothing for the 99% other games I roll. Similarly, I feel worker stealing would somewhat limit the educational purpose of this game.
Because every other decision will build on this and make up a scenario which is hard to replicate on Deity.

If the aim is to get a high score or just win as convincingly/quickly as possible, stealing a worker is certainly the best choice though. It is a big boost and the backlash from Immortal AI shouldn't be too severe.

It's kind of a philosophy thing I suppose. I am obsessed with "win percentage" on Deity, where worker steal would often be way too risky or just not possible at all (Isolation start, neighbor too far away, etc). Obviously there are many different ways to play this game though.

 

[NineOneSix]

Good points Lain. But one of the things we hear a lot is that you have to play the map. A formulaic approach will help with developing skills to beat deity but at the same time it violates a fundamental principle. Stone starts are rare but they do happen.

PHS has thrown up the opportunity for a strong but unconventional start. Little is lost by taking 3 turns for a warrior build and it allows for faster exploration and dot map planning. In particular I would be looking for a good food/commerce site to move the capital to. (Hopefully one of our neighbours is preparing one for us ). A worker steal opportunity may or may not happen. But I say we should go for it and see what the map presents to us.

 

[Jarno]

And the game is ON! Lain, it's true that this might not be the 'proper' way to learn a Deity-worthy playstyle, however I do agree with NineOneSix that it's good to play the map. Also, I've always been playing conservative games (peacefully expand, tech to aest, trade for alpha etc.), so it would be nice to vary here a bit and learn how to handle such a game.

At T1, Babylon is settled, where a 3T warrior will be built. More river to the west is revealed.

Spoiler Babylon :

At T2, I meet my first opponent, Mister Zara. His capitol can't be more than 10 tiles away. Would he be wiling to provide a useful slave for the Babylonian empire? We've also discoved gold and cow around a small lake.

Spoiler Zara :

T3: Warrior proceeds eastwards.

T4: Second warrior is finished. He will probably be sent south -> west to scout for potential second city locations, and maybe another worker-steal target. Tech is still unselected. Do I have to select one on T5 or before T5? How much is the discount actually when other civs already know the tech (like Zara knows mining)? And how much is the 'speeds up' multiplyer? I'd like to see whether I can build that into my calculator.

Spoiler Overview T4 :

Edit: And there must be a nice overview somewhere showing which resources can appear on which terrain types. Would you happen to know where? Copper can't be found on grass hills right?

 

[NineOneSix]

Production will be a bit light in Babylon later on but looks strong for the early game. Prospects for more resources in that city don't look very good. But the river lands to the east look quite tempting for a bureacracy capital, perhaps 3W 1N of the capitol, Babylon can help grow cottages for it (lol). Would need to see what else is in the future BFC but it looks great for cottaging and the unforested grass hill from our starting position will be in the BFC.

With Zara so close by it definitely looks a possibility to steal a worker and choke his capitol. If we let him expand peacefully we will get hemmed in by his culture. Preventing Zara from getting any settlers out would be a priority. Agg warriors won't be enough to kill archers fortified in a creative capitol so we would need to find some horse or copper and get it hooked up. If we commit to an early war dec and can't get early access to one of these it could certainly backfire.

Aggressive action toward Zara is definitely a gamble when we don't know if there is an accessible military resource. Much as I hate having creative close neighbours we might be better to wait until construction to take him out. A timely discovery of horses might also allow the alternative of an HA rush. With his close proximity we could potentially blitz the capitol very quickly, or even take cities 2 or 3 on the same turn as the war dec.

 

[Lain]

Fair points. Surely there is a lot to be learned from handling this start aggressively. I just noticed when watching AZ videos that I learned the most from his "normal" openings as opposed to the "high risk-high reward" style he usually follows. That's not to say every start should be played in the same way. The variety of this game shouldn't be confined within prescribed strategies. But starting with more general "bread&butter" strategies/skills and only after that acquiring more "niche" skills is what helped me a lot. Mastering the normal waves first before diving into stormier realms, so to speak.

But since you usually do that anyway, playing the map and starting with a quick warrior seems like a good change of pace. There is still a lot to be learned here and should add to what you already know. Nothing wrong with that at all. Excited to see how it goes .

In the spirit of variety, what about farming everything and going for Pyramids here?

Copper can be found on grass hills, I am pretty sure? And I always select the tech on T5. Not sure about the specifics of the bonus, but saving a few beakers early on can't hurt. Also T5 is usually when your borders expand (if you don't move) so if you are still on the fence about tech choice, more information can be used before making a decision.

2nd city on the "Zara T2" marker would be nice. Cows and gold. Maybe a bit risky if you are going to declare on him for the worker. But if you don't, chances are he will settle that before you can.

 

[Imploding]

Had a blast playing this game! Nice share! Thanks to Jarno and lymond!

Spoiler :

Also Sampsa, great tip, about moving closer to the center of the map in a pangea situation
I also recorded it and you can find my attempt at my channel!

Spoiler :

A fast and fun win

Spoiler :

Also went for Ultra religious economy

Just put everything into a giant spoiler

 

[NineOneSix]

Hilarious Imploding - the forum game is at Turn 4 and you completed it with a video ready to post - spoilers to the max! I better not look or I will have to stop posting on this thread.

 

[Jarno]

Had a blast playing this game! Nice share! Thanks to Jarno and lymond!

Just put everything into a giant spoiler

Ehm ok so I guess my playing speed is not quite on par with Imploding. Slow and steady wins the race right?. Played some more turns today, will post a report later.

 

[Jarno]

Captain's Log, T5-T7

T5: Move Warriorin NE direction, and lo and behold, there lieth the fertile green lands of Ethiopia. Other warrior start scouting the southern border. We're at T5, so I select mining as the first technology to research.

Spoiler Look at that juicy worker :

In between turns, I meet Hatshepsut of Egypt. Another creative neighbour, that could turn out nasty in border control. Maybe she can build a few wonders and/or shrines for me.
T6: I move my warrior towards the worker. He has finished farming the first FP (while he had 2 turns left farming the previous turn. AI bonus FTW). Hopefully he'll start farming the FP 1S.

Spoiler Let's see if he's still there... :

Darn he's gone! We have a clear view on Aksum: it's on a hill behind a river defended by two archers and warrior. Won't be easy to capture. Now the question remains where my missing workforce has gone. My warrior will have to make an outflanking manoeuvre, but not sure whether to go clockwise or anticlockwise. What would happen to the city walls if he marches around the city seven times?

To be continued... although not as fast as Imploding.

 

[Imploding]

@Jarno In my head it sounds better to "grantee" to take a worker from a certain AI, and have 2 warriors in his perimeter when you DoW also threatens him more. easier peace etc. (at least it seems so). Than getting a chance of taking a worker from someone else. I always send both warriors towards the closest guy, as soon as I can locate his lands. Unless its ofc its Mansa, shaka, montezuma etc. Anyone else have a different practice insight here?

 

[Jarno]

Continued until Mining is researched.

T8: In between turns I meet Brennus and Qin Shi. No worker found yet. No foodies found yet...

T9: Mining finished. I find the shore north of Aksum, as predicted by BIC. SW of Babylon I only find incense and mountains. Nothing newsworthy further. Will research Bronze Working next. Will be needing some chops to speed up the settler, otherwise it will take a long time to produce. Granary is always welcome, but I won't be whipping the capitol much due to food shortage, hence diminishing its value.

Spoiler Babylon area :

No fancy city spots spotted in the SW...

Spoiler Aksum area :

No fancy workers spotted on the western Aksum river banks. Should have gone east...

 

[Jarno]

Corn to the north will be claimed by Babylon on t51. For this reason, I tend to think a gold/corn city should be settled by the gold. I hear the plains hill W of the gold agrees with that. (roads on diagonales, except when there are special resources)
It's also possible to do a gold/cow city and use the corn with another one, up north. More scouting warranted.

Thanks for this, I did hear that plains hill murmur something. According to my CIV Excel sheet, I can get a settler out by T33. If I can capture another worker, that one can help chopping or later start mining the gold, and the current one can road towards Babylon. Gold > trade routes.

Spoiler Calculation details :

T14: Worker is finished, starts farming the FP 1N of Babylon. Citizen continues works this FP. Building queue: Warrior.
T19: Warrior finishes. Build another warrior or put some hammers in barracks
T20: Worker finishes farming.
T21: Babylon grows to size 2, citizen 2 works FP. Worker starts farming 2N of Babylon
T23: Move worker to forested GH 1NW of Babylon
T24: Bronze working in, worker starts chopping. Start researching Pottery (10 turns?) (Warrior finishes)
T26: Babylon grows to size 3, citizen 3 works FP. Chop into settler.
T27: Worker moves to forested 1E (grass) or 1NE (plains) of Babylon.
T28: Chop chop
T30: Chop into settler
T31: Worker moves to FPH 1W of gold
T32: Chop chop
T33: Settler finished, move to FPH.
T34: Pottery is in(?). Chop into granary.
T35: Settle Akkad. Move worker to gold.
T38: Babylon grows to S4. Queue worker.
T39: Gold online
T40: Whip worker into granary
T44: Granary finished

 

[Jarno]

You can probably start thinking about when / what size you will stagnate your capital on a Settler.
Conspicuous : without any special resources, growing 1 size doesn't speed up the settler production by much (+2hpt if improved tile).
Chops could make a difference. (1 chop = -2 turns towards settler ?)
With that in mind (no extra specials in capital), finding strong food/hammer specials (corn, cows, pigs) might be better for city 2 than the low production gold tile. Don't be blinded by the gold.

Based on this observation, I calculated how building the settler at size 1 would change the outcome. Conclusion: 5 turns earlier 2nd city, gold online 4 turns earlier. Downside is that it takes Babylon four turns longer to get to size 4. Worker is then 4 turns later, granary 2 turns later. Upside is that is saves 1 forest.

Spoiler Calculation details :

T14: Start producing settler with 6/turn, worker starts farming FP 1N
T20: Farming floodplain completed.
T21: Start farming FP 2N
T23: Worker moves to forest 1(N)E of Babylon
T24: Bronze working in, start chopping
T26: Chopchop finishes settler.
T27: Move settler towards PH. Move worker onto PH. Production into warrior.
T28: Chopchop
T29: Settler waits one turn
T30: One turn chop into worker(?). Settle Akkad.
T31: Worker moves to gold. Production in Babylon back to warrior in order to grow.
T33: Warrior finished. Start producing warrior.
T34: Pottery finished. Babylon grows on granary.
T35: Gold online.
T39: Babylon grows to S3
T44: Babylon grows to S4 -> Whip worker into granary, which finishes on T45

Question is whether 4 turns of gold weighs up against a slower development of Babylon. This calculation is based on the fact that no worker is stolen, that would of course change the outcome massively.