Let's play Izzy

zig_zac · Mar 31, 2012

Hello. I am at the point I need your advise to improve my gameplay. I think I have a tendency to expand too slowly. The last game I managed to win was OCC, and it wasn't that hard; obviously I do something wrong with my normal games.

I also build a lot of cottages - w/o them have no cash. I will play non-financial leader, to cripple cottages and learn not to relay on them.

I am at lost with using Great People; the only good idea I know is bulbing Machinery/Engineering w/o Fishing. So I will play somebody, who starts with Fishing.

Also non-Phillosophical, so no heavy bulbing instead of cottages. Yes, I don't really know, how my economy will be running

Your help would be much appreciated. Shadowing game would be good, too, I will check it all, with all humbleness.

Let's play Isabella then.

Settings: Normal/Normal, Immortal, Pangea, no huts/events.

Starting location, after moving a warrior:

Spoiler :

I may be putting some crazy write-up in spoilers, preferably for your amusement, though probably more for mine

Will wait with first few turns for settling advice (how many should I play per session?)

cseanny · Mar 31, 2012

You're 4000BC save and screen shot don't match up

. Probably gonna need to fix that first so we can help/shadow better ^^.

zig_zac · Mar 31, 2012

Fixed, sorry. I rolled few times to not get too good start, and it ended up with a mess.

Htadus · Apr 2, 2012

SIP. You have food and an optimal amount of FPs in the Big Fat Cross(BFT). The blue dot will very likely be coast. Start a worker and Aggriculture. BTW, cottages on FP's in the capital which has food is very much optimal. i would not discount it.

soundjata · Apr 3, 2012

Very interesting start indeed to learn "not to rely on cottage"

As a challenge, I recommend farming all the floodplains and building zero cottage.

With spiritual Izzy, you can alternate between Slavery for production and Caste System for Great People farming.
If the wine is your only happy resource, monarchy should be researched ASAP.

I am not sure about SIP because you block a lot of potential city sites to the west.
It could be smarter to move toward the stone, build wonders while leaving space for many cities in your western backyard.

ahcos · Apr 3, 2012

Trying not to rely on cottages is just as weak as to rely on them completely, or to play a SE just for the sake of it. That city is a pretty damn nice cottage spot, and imo you should build cottages. Techpath depends alot on your surroundings here, it kinda looks like a situation to me where AGG->Wheel->Pot->Hunt->Archery might be great. Screws with your production, sure, but will make you tech and build up your cities like crazy with early EXP grans + FP cottages.

If you really want to avoid cottages, settle the stone quickly and build the mids. With those FPs, the cap will also serve well as a GP farm.

Will wait with first few turns for settling advice (how many should I play per session?)

Usually i'd play until i needed advice regarding which path to take. Some of the points people usually chose:

1. After you've met the first neighbours, roughly when your worker is ready
2. When you're about to found your second city
3. When you reached Writing
4. Alpha in
5. 1 AD

BornInCantaloup · Apr 3, 2012

I'd consider settling on the stone. It's a very good tile, once improved, though, and the city could lack production. On the + side, it grants immediate access to stone once Masonry is improved and saves worker turns to invest on cottages.
Techpath could go : Agri -> Wheel -> Pott -> Masonry.

Early Pottery is attractive, in any case, even with SIP. Time the 2nd city according to the Worker's ability to road there (look for grains if you want early Pott + Masonry).

SIP is fine as well, but a little more landlocked and misses on the cows. 2nd city can still claim the stone easily.

MrKlew · Apr 3, 2012

I'm only a noble player, so take this all with a grain of salt, but here are my thoughts. Settle in place is almost always good. My guess is there might even be another resource to the north or west. The only issue with settling in place I think is that two of those resources won't come into play until later in game, and there are also the issues of where the 2nd city goes, how to split up the flood plains, and how urgently you want the stone on-line.

Another option might be to settle just west of the stone (on the river for the health bonus) to get the corn and stone with 6 floodplains. I think Izzy is expansive too, so you might be able to settle where the warrior is to pull in the cows and rely on expansive to offset the health issues.

Either way you are going to have lots of food and will be able to turn out settlers/workers pretty quickly. If it were me, I think I might settle in place and aim for a quick second city near the stone. I'd probably research agriculture followed by masonry. Build wise I'd probably go worker>warrior>settler. Maybe insert another warrior between the worker and settler if growth wasn't fast enough.

soundjata · Apr 3, 2012

700BC

Spoiler :

zig_zac · Apr 3, 2012

Htadus said:
SIP. You have food and an optimal amount of FPs in the Big Fat Cross(BFT). The blue dot will very likely be coast. Start a worker and Aggriculture. BTW, cottages on FP's in the capital which has food is very much optimal. i would not discount it.

soundjata said:
Very interesting start indeed to learn "not to rely on cottage"

You're right about the start being good for cottaging. Like I said, I messed up all starts I rolled, and it ended like that. No big deal. I think even with SE cottaging capital can be decent move.
Yet after exploring I found some more FP, so, probably, cottages.
If cottages, no Pyramids. They are quite a gamble, and I met Ramesses, don't want to race with him to MIDS.

The beginning, or when Queen Isabella and whomever-he-is zig_zag meet.

Spoiler :

Techs I went :Agriculture>Mining>BW

Built Worker > Warrior > Warrior > Settler

Found Copper, and Gold. Decided I need the Wheel, to get happiness and barb defense out of them.

Spoiler :

And then I planned to block AI with my second city, tech fast with Gold, and chop down Oracle. Spaming Workers is something Isabella can do with all that FPs.
I know no one had said anything about Oracle, but I figured it would be the fastest way of teching. Lately Oracle grew on me, I do it very often.

Also, Isabella was bored.

Spoiler :

On the way to the Oracle:

Spoiler :

So, further tech path:

The Wheel>Meditation>Priesthood>Writing> Oracle> Alphabet

started researching Aesthetics, but not sure about it.

After tech trades:

Spoiler :

And the plan of "expansion". Red dot is a city I very much regret I haven't got. Riverside, Elephants, and so on.

Spoiler :

The "Horse city" has no food resource: I can farm 1 FP, and work a lake. I think it's worth it. What do you think?

I skipped alternative path with Mids. Maybe it would be better to take them, I don't know. I probably wouldn't lost this good red riverside spot. I even think of playing this simultaneously, to see where MIDS would get me.

Don't know about tech path. I can trade Elephants, so can go for Construction rush, yet I have room to expand for now. Could tech Aesthetics for trade, but need Math, if fast Construction (and it will take them some time to tech anywhere. they need Writing for start)
Maybe Currency? And I need MC, cause barb Galleys will sink my Work Boats in no time.

soundjata · Apr 3, 2012

Very entertaining write-up Zig_Zac! Looking forward to read more

The superiority of Oracle is proven by the fact 6 AIs came to visit your empire, while they are only 4 in my game at 700BC.

PeteJ · Apr 4, 2012

I played this one to 1000ad:

Spoiler :

Edit: Let me also just add that the mids are good for more than just Rep. Police state is really nice and US can be useful if your empire is set up the right way. I once played a game with ragnar where I had stone and a bunch of flood plains. My strategy was basically to build the mids and cottage heavily, then when it was time to push for domination I switched to US and gold-rushed my way to victory. It worked out pretty well and I had a decent victory date. Just my 2 cents..

vranasm · Apr 4, 2012

@zig
I don't really like what you did with Barcelona. If I were to play I would do something similar to Pete's shadow. Settled on the stone city 2.

City 3 could be on the PH 1SW of the gold

as for settling capital... SIP is good of course, but after seeing the starting SS my thoughts were "what about 1 SW?" ok I would lose some turns on 1st worker which IS big deal, but take more central position with 6 flood plains cottages guaranteed.

zig_zac · Apr 4, 2012

@Vranasm
Well, your case is strong.

I will defend myself a bit. If I wanted an Oracle defense it was the only way to get all three things at once:
tech fast enough
get Axes ( to the date I've lost just one Warrior to barb archers, but I bet I will see some more of them)
block the way to the North

So I would have to resign from the Oracle to do that. You think it would be advisable?

@Soundjata
Thanks

I won't check your game yet, cause you're already at 700B.C.

zig_zac · Apr 4, 2012

Since I really need advice about tech path, I wrote a short relation from Spanish Palace while waiting.

Spoiler :

WelshGandalf · Apr 4, 2012

Some thoughts...

Asthetics is a good tech choice on Immortal.
I would probably have gone pyramids what with the stone, and cottaged the capital. Even in a SE game (if you wanted to go for that) it's still OK to cottage your capital, when you get CS it can produce a brilliant amount of money to keep your economy going.

Spaming Workers is something Isabella can do with all that FPs.

You probably know this but you don't get the expansive "building workers bonus" for food. You do however get it for whipping which is probably what you meant.

What's the medium term plan? Here's a suggestion. You have horses, so you can trade/bulb through to getting miltrad at an early-ish date. 2 great scientists to bulb education, and one for philosophy (a 4th for paper if you want but the first 3 give a better beaker return rate).

soundjata · Apr 4, 2012

Tech plan with Izzy
> Do you have horses? Yes.
Conquistadors asap.

Your short term research plan could be
1. Currency
2. Music
3. Civil service

zig_zac · Apr 5, 2012

@WelshGandalf
Frankly I forgot about it. Thanks.

You were very convincing about MIDS. I also saw more land, and :food:

is plentiful, right for scientists. So I gave MIDS a try. They sometimes come late in the game, and the worse I could get out of my attempt was failgold with 50% bonus from Stone.

Barcelona is decent production spot. I grew it, chopped some trees, and... Bam! 675 BC MIDS.

Tech path:
Aesthetics>CoL in progress

Not very pleased here. I avoided trading Writing for long, and haven't trade Alphabet. And nobody wants to give me Math, so my Aesthetics is useless for now. Maybe should have just go for Currency?

But have that idea, that:
since I'll run Representation,
since I traded Marble for Horses,
I'll go for GL.

Tech trades:

Spoiler :

Diplo:

Charlie is in WHEOOHRN. Him, and Roosevelt are Buddhists. I would change religion in no time, but have not one Buddhist city. I just hope he will go after somebody of different religion, whom he hates more. My "army" is 3 Axes, one Archer in construction, and I will probably build Walls in Barcelona.
Eventually I will turn panic mode on after scouting his nearest city.

Overall image:

Spoiler :

My questions:

1. Should I have sixth city already? Did that wonders slowed me too much?

2. After going for Literature it seems natural to try getting Music first. But is it really good move? I'll get free GA, but what can he give me? He can start GA - ehem, now it would be a waste; I can settle him - with Rep it would be decent, and he could push a border from Willem, this one I like; he could bulb, but Drama?
I could trade Music of course, which I like, couse for me it's quite useless tech. But it's quite costly detour on the way to Lib. So, is it worth it?

3. In the great scheme of things - where to put that hefty Currency technology?

4. More wonders? MoM seems always nice, but some other AI's are already researching faster. My guess would be: just GL, if I can. And - is it high priority?

BornInCantaloup · Apr 5, 2012

I think your settling pattern should or, at least, could be more agressive.
Settling Seville north really took some land out of you. Did you really need axemen ? Axemen are for rushing neighbours or getting 10xp to unlock the Heroic Epic. I think that, whith Seville, you were overly cautious. It ain't bad. Surviving is never bad. But you could have asked for more.
As you say, losing the red spot (down south) is a bummer. Consider that settling Seville north made you lose that spot. As a general rule, always settle towards the AI. It's all about exploiting the map and the earlier you exploit an area, the better.

As an example, Burn's settling pattern is sound. Before you check it, your Barcelona, if you wanted to claim the gold, should have been 2 south from where it is : plains hills city tile is always good, gold in the 1st ring is ok and horses + ivory in the 2nd ring is interesting. Besides, you've got oasis access. Also, the 4 floodplains are behind the city tile, from the AI's point of view, so they're culturally protected.
You claimed the cow in the 2nd ring, instead. It's a fine tile but it's a tile that's so close from your capital you'll never lose it ! There's no need to protect it.

As a general rule (again), if you want a blocking city, settle it past the resources. That way the city doesn't fight to protect its resource but fights for other tiles. The resources are secured. It also leaves more room to backfill, which is fine for a blocker city.
E.g. : 2S, 1SE or 1SW from the cow is a blocker city. From there, you can set up a belt of cities that protects your land (see Burn's 3 southern cities pattern).

As per your questions :
- 4 cities by 675 BC is fine. However, indeed, hurry for your remaining settlers. Reaching 6 cities is at stake, sure, but filling out your land is as well !
Wonders slowed you down, sure. They're probably worth it, though. Consider that the more you delay settlers building wonders, the more you need to claim land towards the AI !

- Getting Music is ok if you go for Conquistadores. Even without marble (which you may trade for). Music is a direct prerequiste for an awesome UU.

- More wonders ? Sure... If you're not whipping a settler/worker, then work your failgold.
I did shadow the game. I'm not finished but reached kind of a similar position to Burn at 1000 AD (full cottages Madrid). I settled the capital on the stone, and then Barcelona down, down south, south of the cows, near a corn. So my shadow ain't really telling. Settling Madrid 3S2E really changes the game.
However, most of my tech pace came from failgold until Liberalism. I failed... Stonehenge, Pyramids, Parthenon, Statue of Zeus, Shwedagon Paya, Hanging Gardens and some more. Got 1000+ gold for it that funded research. That I got for sure, there were Great Wall, Great Library, University of Sankore, Taj Mahal. Not necessarily those that I would have prefered but that's enough.

If you're going Pyramids, then you need as many Libraries as possible.
It can get you 6 beakers per citizen, provided the food. That's great. Also consider running Caste System early, especially with Isabella who's Spiritual. In that case, Libraries are a worthy bonus but not uber necessary.
@ Currency : go for it after Code of Laws. The tech is awesome, if only for selling Polytheism and settling new cities that almost pay for themselves.

Hope that helps,
BIC.

zig_zac · Apr 6, 2012

BornInCantaloup said:
I think your settling pattern should or, at least, could be more agressive.
Settling Seville north really took some land out of you. Did you really need axemen ? Axemen are for rushing neighbours or getting 10xp to unlock the Heroic Epic. I think that, whith Seville, you were overly cautious. It ain't bad. Surviving is never bad. But you could have asked for more.
As you say, losing the red spot (down south) is a bummer. Consider that settling Seville north made you lose that spot. As a general rule, always settle towards the AI. It's all about exploiting the map and the earlier you exploit an area, the better.

I thought I need Axemen for barb defence. Probably stacked Warriors would do just fine. I've met so many AI's fast. I should have known barbs would be beaten. Can't argue with that.
So yes, third city should be placed in more aggresive manner.

As an example, Burn's settling pattern is sound. Before you check it, your Barcelona, if you wanted to claim the gold, should have been 2 south from where it is : plains hills city tile is always good, gold in the 1st ring is ok and horses + ivory in the 2nd ring is interesting. Besides, you've got oasis access. Also, the 4 floodplains are behind the city tile, from the AI's point of view, so they're culturally protected.
You claimed the cow in the 2nd ring, instead. It's a fine tile but it's a tile that's so close from your capital you'll never lose it ! There's no need to protect it.

As a general rule (again), if you want a blocking city, settle it past the resources. That way the city doesn't fight to protect its resource but fights for other tiles. The resources are secured. It also leaves more room to backfill, which is fine for a blocker city.
E.g. : 2S, 1SE or 1SW from the cow is a blocker city. From there, you can set up a belt of cities that protects your land (see Burn's 3 southern cities pattern).

True. My defense: I settled there, because I wanted strong production city. And Gold. And block the AI. The production payed off already as I've built MIDS.
For now cultural pressure in Barcelona won't be a problem, as I have MIDS there. And I would have trouble keeping Horses in the outer ring from culture pressure.

As per your questions :
- 4 cities by 675 BC is fine. However, indeed, hurry for your remaining settlers. Reaching 6 cities is at stake, sure, but filling out your land is as well !
Wonders slowed you down, sure. They're probably worth it, though. Consider that the more you delay settlers building wonders, the more you need to claim land towards the AI !

It's five cities

So I guess it's OK. Or maybe you don't count Cordoba, since it's a little crappy place.

- Getting Music is ok if you go for Conquistadores. Even without marble (which you may trade for). Music is a direct prerequiste for an awesome UU.

I forgot Music is a prerequisite for MT. Stupid me.

- More wonders ? Sure... If you're not whipping a settler/worker, then work your failgold.
I did shadow the game. I'm not finished but reached kind of a similar position to Burn at 1000 AD (full cottages Madrid). I settled the capital on the stone, and then Barcelona down, down south, south of the cows, near a corn. So my shadow ain't really telling. Settling Madrid 3S2E really changes the game.
However, most of my tech pace came from failgold until Liberalism. I failed... Stonehenge, Pyramids, Parthenon, Statue of Zeus, Shwedagon Paya, Hanging Gardens and some more. Got 1000+ gold for it that funded research. That I got for sure, there were Great Wall, Great Library, University of Sankore, Taj Mahal. Not necessarily those that I would have prefered but that's enough.

And which Wonders would you prefer?

If you're going Pyramids, then you need as many Libraries as possible.
It can get you 6 beakers per citizen, provided the food. That's great. Also consider running Caste System early, especially with Isabella who's Spiritual. In that case, Libraries are a worthy bonus but not uber necessary.
@ Currency : go for it after Code of Laws. The tech is awesome, if only for selling Polytheism and settling new cities that almost pay for themselves.

Of course I will go Caste System. I wouldn't research CoL, if not. Rather Currency.
I just wonder, if going Currency won't strip me of TGL. Yet I will go for Currency first anyway.

Hope that helps,
BIC.

Sure. And it's certainly interesting.

Let's play Izzy

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