Jorissimo's opening training shadow thread

[sampsa]

Though to be fair, the possibility that a barb animal catches you while checking the coast is very low. Maybe my main point is that it's not very useful to check that coast (yet).

Btw, do you happen to know when animals and barb military units spawn on Immortal?

Don't remember it by heart, no. Maybe animals start to spawn on T7? Warriors/archers T20 or so?

 

[jorissimo]

Changing the subject, on second thoughts I'm not completely sold on the Mids. We are charismatic (+2 happy with monuments), and have silver so that gets us to +3. We also have good land to settle. What do you guys think?

 

[Fippy]

More scouting needed (also around the stone) before thinking about them
This looks suspiciously like iso so far..they are always great there, but if there's one leader who can afford to skip them it's Hanni.

 

[aitkensam]

Nice thread idea

When settling the cap, I also think in GO (the ancient boardgame) terms: All things being equal, it is better to settle near the center of the map than in its periphery.
Seing tundra, I know which way to favor (north in your situation)

Apart from that, there is a statistically good chance you have a neighbour east, and a neighbour west. (or one neighbour on one side and the ocean on the other side) Plus there is a statistically good chance you are roughly in the middle of those two bounds. So moving east bears the risk of losing west and vice versa (especially true on deity)

Those where just general consideration to address the thread topic.
Now settling on the nearest plain hill looks perfectly reasonable

Never thought I'd see mention of Go on this forum. The only game I find more addicting than Civ. Even made me move continent for half a decade!

 

[jorissimo]

T26:

Spoiler :

I have:
- Fishing, Agri, BW
- 3 pop
- 1 worker
- 4 warriors
- 1 corn farm
- 1 mine

I switched back from the corn to the unimproved deer to get the warrior out faster. Then took back the corn and grew to size 3. I'm now working the mine as well.

Warrior 1 went to camp on the forested grassland hill in the west.

Warrior 2 went onto the forested ph in the NW and, when it saw the coast was clear, walked 2N, where it found fish next to the stone. This means the stone settle is now more attractive, which favors the Mids. It could build a boat while working the stone while the worker quarries it. Now that BW revealed copper, barb defense is less of a concern, so I can forgo archery, meaning the Mids are now also a safer option than before.

Warrior 3 went south onto the forested tundra hill, where it was attacked by a panther. It's taking 4 turns to heal...

Warrior 4 is making its way east, where it might just camp on the tile marked 'c' to guard the chokepoint.

My worker mined the hill after farming the corn. Then moved briefly onto the northwestern riverside tile to put some turns into a farm. 1 turn before BW finished, it moved onto the forest tile where it is now. I could either chop right away or mine the copper first. Will probably chop as I spent a turn of movement to get into the forest anyway. After that, it will road to C2, which, right now, I think will be the stone spot.

For the future tech path, I guess the main question is whether to go Pottery first or Masonry first.

 

[soundjata]

I think the stone/fish city is a trap.
I think the temptation for mids is a trap, but I would be happy hearing @Fippy thoughts about it.

As you went BW first, now you have to use that production for something.

So the proper question at this stage is: "What is the something that would boost my progression in an extraordinarily powerful way?"
This concept is called 'sentei' in Go I think. @aitkensam could confirm.
There is probably a play that is the best (godlike) but is very hard to find and probably not the most obvious.

So, what is this move?
Throwing some random options
- Incorporate dry rice into Carthage asset portfolio? (no)
- Settle northern fish and spend Spend 3000 turns improving the stone and netting the fish? (the ROI looks awful)
- Pluck down a silver city (NW of silver) because:

I like that last option the best.
Your economy will increase by an extraordinary rate (instant +50% more or less). Such a boost will never happen again later!
Additionally. That city seems to have a rather good fogbusting value.

There has to be more / smarter options.

Edit: When in doubt settle on the nearest PH?

 

[Fippy]

Pyras can also be wealth x2..
~400 gold wouldn't be bad in iso

Fish makes stone city valid, and so far there are no great other spots (unless i missed them).
But with FIN pottery should usually come first, unless we play deity and are stuck with no happy resources or Cha..and really really want those Pyras.

Quick BW often means nothing to build but warriors, workers & settlers.
On some deity maps that would be a death trap
Why rush a settler for floodplains with no pottery yet..
not saying that will happen here, but just something to keep in mind.

 

[sampsa]

Why rush a settler for floodplains with no pottery yet..

Well, keep in mind immortal is much easier than deity in many ways (maintenance, safety). If you can safely settle a decent city, I think in general you should, asap. Unimproved fp is good imo, doesn't take worker turns even.

 

[soundjata]

Fully agree pottery > bw
Still not sold on the mids. Such an investment...

How about exploration?
Useless / kinda good / crucial ?

 

[Fippy]

Well, keep in mind immortal is much easier than deity in many ways (maintenance, safety). If you can safely settle a decent city, I think in general you should, asap. Unimproved fp is good imo, doesn't take worker turns even.

Oh no doubt, fast BW was good here (and even copper luck).
Axes are also great..even more so on deity.
Imo this map can be played in several valid ways.

Would i take BW before wheel (and no 2nd city connection) if there was no copper..prolly not, but you can.

 

[sampsa]

How about exploration?
Useless / kinda good / crucial ?

I think for T26 the exploration is fine? Of course there is no knowledge about dry corn area, but at least the west is safe. Copper will make exploration easy in the near future.

 

[jorissimo]

T36

Spoiler :

I have:
- Fishing, BW, TW
- 2 cities
- 4 pop
- 5 warriors
- 1 corn farm, 1 grassland mine, 1 copper mine, 1 road

Thought long and hard and decided the Mids weren't that crucial because this map clearly favors cottages over specialists and all that extra happiness (on top of Char and silver) may be overkill given that health will become a problem at such large city sizes. I thus went for the silver spot, which turned out to be double silver with space for an additional city further south.

Rearranged the warriors to improve fog busting. Warrior 5, built in the cap just after the settler, is making its way east to explore in "double walk" fashion with the other warrior that was already there.

After the settler and the warrior, the capital went for a worker. The next build will probably be another settler. Not sure yet where it will go. So far there's nothing interesting in the east. So city 3 could either go for the stone spot (disadvantage: takes long to set up and has only 1 fp in the first ring), or to the plains hill 1NW of the worker.

The worker built the copper mine, which timed nicely with finishing TW. Then it started on roading towards city 2. Given the river, I will only need 3 roads rather than 4. My idea was to road diagonally NW and then SW in order to have a beginning of a road to the NW. However, it would have saved me a worker turn had I jumped right onto the grassland hill and then roaded 1E of city 2.

For future tech, I will quickly grab Hunting and then probably Writing. Masonry could be flicked in if we want to have a half-hearted go at the Mids for failgold. If we don't get the Mids, I think a detour to Monarchy could be worth it before embarking on the Optics - Astro path.

 

[Build2Much]

I just logged in for the first time in a while to ask about an opening to see if I’m looking at things correctly, apparently a popular topic this week!

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

The next build will probably be another settler. Not sure yet where it will go. So far there's nothing interesting in the east.

Spoiler :

Pottery is too soon imo.
You could go hunting right now and grow the cap on an axe (to explore eastwards).
Road towards silver and camp the deer.
Next settler > southern fish. Work those juicy silver mines.
You can double chop the fishboat on the turn that city is settled with some micro

 

[sampsa]

I ignored the silver(s). My 2nd city went on the stone and 3rd east by the rice. Stone failgold seems better than silver, neh? One tile needs to be roaded for all these to be connected (coast and river).

@drewisfat and @CarpoolKaraoke I'd love to hear your comments if you are around!

 

[drewisfat]

I try to stay out of these threads because I get a little too controlling
I would have settled my second city on the ph 2N3W from the capital. Minimal maintenance, fast trade routes, bonus hammer, and requires no immediate worker turns so we can go for another settler next, probably the northern fish.
As much as I love wonders and gold tiles, I think the desert stone and tundra silver are huge distractions especially with this leader.

 

[sampsa]

I try to stay out of these threads because I get a little too controlling

We just want to hear your opinion and then forget about it.

 

[notslin]

My 2nd city went on the stone and 3rd east by the rice. Stone failgold seems better than silver, neh? One tile needs to be roaded for all these to be connected (coast and river).

I wonder if failgolding is useful that early, when you only have a capital and the stone city.

I'm thinking how I would play, assuming Deity difficulty (not that I'm an experienced player).

The idea of Agriculture -> Hunting -> BW is interesting, because the Deer is a good tile. (Credit to Fippy for suggesting.)

But would that waste worker turns? Hmm I guess there might be a couple worker turns wasted:

• The worker takes 11 turns to build (since 5*5 + 6*6 = 61).
• The worker can do things for 16 turns -- farm (5 turns), camp (1 + 4 = 5 turns), mine (1 + 4 = 5 turns), move to forest (1 turn).
• The tech cost is 101 + 67 + 202 (effectively less due to prereq). Turn-wise, that's about (101+67)/11 + 202/13 = 15.3 + 15.5 = ~31 turns, maybe a turn or two less if you work more commerce.
• After worker is built, I think you'd grow to size 2 after 6 turns (4*3 + 2*6 = 24), then size 3 after 4 turns (2 + 4*6 = 26), then size 4 after 3 turns (2 + 3*8 = 26) if you work grassland.
• So size 4 can be reached in 13 turns (after worker). Then you can work coast, which effectively gives you 4 more beakers per turn on BW, because of an interesting rounding trick.
• So I feel like the tech might take 29 turns to get through (after settle), leaving 2 worker turns "wasted," which isn't so bad. I would have to start up the game to test.
• In the meantime you have a few warriors. Maybe enough production to use warriors to defend against barbs?

 

[soundjata]

This reminds me of the old SGOTMs

As much as I love wonders and gold tiles, I think the desert stone and tundra silver are huge distractions especially with this leader.

Huge distractions... To rapid expansion I presume?

The PH city (sharing capitol copper) is a good city sure.

But, now that silver city has been settled we need to validate its purpose by improving the silver don't we?
Hence my suggestion: invest another settler + all of the workforce (2 workers) in the direction of silver. Camp, road, mine, chop (~25 worker turns)
In return, our commerce per turn doubles, which is good in my book

The capitol is a beast production site. It can take care of REX on its own.
After the "silver investment" is done, it can do worker (road to stone) - settler (stonefish) - settler (SOPH) - worker (chop pyramidal failgold glory GG go next?)

 

[soundjata]

I wonder if failgolding is useful that early, when you only have a capital and the stone city.

I'm thinking how I would play, assuming Deity difficulty (not that I'm an experienced player).

The idea of Agriculture -> Hunting -> BW is interesting, because the Deer is a good tile. (Credit to Fippy for suggesting.)

But would that waste worker turns? Hmm I guess there might be a couple worker turns wasted:

• The worker takes 11 turns to build (since 5*5 + 6*6 = 61).
• The worker can do things for 16 turns -- farm (5 turns), camp (1 + 4 = 5 turns), mine (1 + 4 = 5 turns), move to forest (1 turn).
• The tech cost is 101 + 67 + 202 (effectively less due to prereq). Turn-wise, that's about (101+67)/11 + 202/13 = 15.3 + 15.5 = ~31 turns, maybe a turn or two less if you work more commerce.
• After worker is built, I think you'd grow to size 2 after 6 turns (4*3 + 2*6 = 24), then size 3 after 4 turns (2 + 4*6 = 26), then size 4 after 3 turns (2 + 3*8 = 26) if you work grassland.
• So size 4 can be reached in 13 turns (after worker). Then you can work coast, which effectively gives you 4 more beakers per turn on BW, because of an interesting rounding trick.
• So I feel like the tech might take 29 turns to get through (after settle), leaving 2 worker turns "wasted," which isn't so bad. I would have to start up the game to test.
• In the meantime you have a few warriors. Maybe enough production to use warriors to defend against barbs?

On deity this map would be a pain. (barb overload)
Only drew can handle that with warriors only