Let's Talk Deity (dominant strategies, openings, etc.)

[Victoria]

Is scout first just for SV, or Domination also? People who say they do it sometimes - what do they base the decision on?

Always move your warrior first of course!
Assess you settling position
Decide on scout or slinger
That decision is not fixed! If you do build a scout (about 30% of my deity starts) and some sign of aggression or realisation you were more exposed than before I happily change to a slinger but that tends to happen in maybe 10% of the 30% at most.
Things that will encourage me to scout are

Am I on coast
Do I have a mountain chain or very hilly start limiting access
How much flat land is around me
Do I feel lucky

I must point out that it does sometimes go wrong but rarely because I am flexible assess and adapt.

An important point is I do not want to play every game the same. That's zzz to me

 

[MIS]

Do I have a mountain chain or very hilly start limiting access
How much flat land is around me

More flat land = more likely or less likely scout first?

 

[Victoria]

Flat land = being attacked quickly, less useful for scouts, more useful for slarchers

 

[MIS]

Flat land = being attacked quickly, less useful for scouts, more useful for slarchers

Got it. Thanks for your non-judgmental help. Do you go builder or slinger--->archer rush afterwards.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Had great results, but all my cities were lacking behind, underdeveloped. That I didnt like.

You can use the harvesting trick I pointed out in this thread. No matter what were you are in a game harvesting and district cost use the exact same formula which mean if you have like 3 forest you can rush a district no matter what which mean you can very quickly get out several colleges or any other district.

It may thuse be a good idea to save harvestable resources to the point then you need them instead of using them as soon as possible.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Thanks. I almost always harvest for my Encampment anyway, but maybe I should do the same for the first two Campi.

 

[Victoria]

Hm, alright. Would you like me to PM you that Alexander start I rolled on Deity? It's a Tiny Pangaea map

Sure, I am masochistic by nature but will try and no doubt be taught a lesson.

Got it. . Do you go builder or slinger--->archer rush afterwards.

I'll play long immersive games sometimes, it's not all about speed so I try not to judge too much but we are all human...

You ask a very important question here. The real answers is violence pays.... you only get a builder to get agoge and to get to mercenaries faster... so the key is craftsmanship but a scout/slinger fits the 5-6 turn gap before a builder is viable. After a builder It's tricky, a single settler may be possible and is very beneficial because early empire cannot be missed, it's a question of situation, can I take someone early enough? Early empire only comes after conscription is got so not a biggy but the second city bolsters in so many ways. In essence 6 is archers and a settler and 1-2 warriors in this period seems sensible but be flexible. I always like take Military tradition as support can help as full strength barb horsemen come online but it's all about my culture speed at the time. Finding a second continent can also be a pain and is missed sometimes... that's worse than loosing an archer to me. Civic eurekas are sooooo important

Do you realise the turn value of
building one encampment?
Being the target of a declaration of war?
Getting the construction tech?
Getting feudalism before stirrups?

I like hanging off a bit on slinger to get a settler purely because you get a DOW against you more

 

[JamesCivFan]

Sure, I am masochistic by nature but will try and no doubt be taught a lesson.


I'll play long immersive games sometimes, it's not all about speed so I try not to judge too much but we are all human...

You ask a very important question here. The real answers is violence pays.... you only get a builder to get agoge and to get to mercenaries faster... so the key is craftsmanship but a scout/slinger fits the 5-6 turn gap before a builder is viable. After a builder It's tricky, a single settler may be possible and is very beneficial because early empire cannot be missed, it's a question of situation, can I take someone early enough? Early empire only comes after conscription is got so not a biggy but the second city bolsters in so many ways. In essence 6 is archers and a settler and 1-2 warriors in this period seems sensible but be flexible. I always like take Military tradition as support can help as full strength barb horsemen come online but it's all about my culture speed at the time. Finding a second continent can also be a pain and is missed sometimes... that's worse than loosing an archer to me. Civic eurekas are sooooo important

Do you realise the turn value of
building one encampment?
Being the target of a declaration of war?
Getting the construction tech?
Getting feudalism before stirrups?

I like hanging off a bit on slinger to get a settler purely because you get a DOW against you more

@Victoria here it is. I am using Chao's Quick UI mod, so you probably need to download that in order to play it.

 

[antimony]

You see no point to commercials or building great zim in your science centre but these are strats that seem to outplay you.

If you look at the GOTM threads it seems LilyLancer's strategy is more flexible than his posts suggest. Despite the talk about CH he ends up building a financial infrastructure in the last two science GOTM, just like everyone else.

Finding a second continent can also be a pain and is missed sometimes... that's worse than loosing an archer to me. Civic eurekas are sooooo important

Totally agree, I can usually get most other key eurekas without scouting (even pol. phi. on deity because of AI taking city states which makes you "meet" them), but spending an extra 7-8 turns on foreign trade feels like a big setback.

 

[antimony]

Does anyone else regularly uses pre-emptive joint wars? I've found one of the best ways to not get DOWed by a strong neighbor is to get them to attack another one.

Especially an aggressive AI like Cyrus, you have to keep them busy.

 

[EpicWestern]

I still don't get how Scout is bad early-game when I see @whacker always ending up with ~150T wins in Deity GoTMs. He always stresses how important the Scout is as an opener and his results prove just that.

I haven't yet attempted any of the 6otms, but just from browsing rules the game is going to be dramatically different than just straight randoming both map and civ and sticking with whatever situation you get. Yeah when you have an ideal civ with an ideal map location where you're already determined to not get squeezed I'm sure its easy to sneak scout first in without risk.

Also one thing I've mentioned in a few other threads but not here is that I employ an early game no settler/worker steal policy. In an actual war with a wave of units I'll steal things (which is still overpowered), but IMO sending a scouting unit out to swipe something and just send it back is an exploit.

 

[Victoria]

pre-emptive joint wars? I've found one of the best ways to not get DOWed

The issue is I want to be DOW'd as thats the largest Eureka saving that is difficult to get on the way to Mercenaries.
Here's a quick assessment spreadsheet, not sure all the values are 100% as they are off the web but the idea is there... if you look seriously at getting construction as a eureka you will likely be slowed so unless you have something like the great barrier reef its not worth it as wheel and masonry are late requirements in the knight cycle. The other two reds are situational bonuses with DOW being the highest benefit if you ignore the two yellows for building an encampment which provide a whopping 95 culture present... very worth it in my eyes if you push the GG as well. The greens are all makeable The difference in getting all eurekas instead of just greens is about a 20 turn saving... significant.
My last game I in fact missed 6 farms but did have Kumasi going so was not worth getting builders for(138 is still a lot of culture). I took the opposition too early and they had not built farms!

If you look at the GOTM threads it seems LilyLancer's strategy is more flexible than his posts suggest.

I think the main issue with @Lily_Lancer is his posts seem a little arrogant "this is the only way to do it" rather than a discussion. I suspect this is more down to English perhaps not being primary but not sure where he comes from. A key point is he is total violence wipe the world clean as opposed to @whacker who tends to take a more rounded approach however he is a very good player and has lots of valid points. Both should be listened to carefully.

 

[JamesCivFan]

I haven't yet attempted any of the 6otms, but just from browsing rules the game is going to be dramatically different than just straight randoming both map and civ and sticking with whatever situation you get. Yeah when you have an ideal civ with an ideal map location where you're already determined to not get squeezed I'm sure its easy to sneak scout first in without risk.

Also one thing I've mentioned in a few other threads but not here is that I employ an early game no settler/worker steal policy. In an actual war with a wave of units I'll steal things (which is still overpowered), but IMO sending a scouting unit out to swipe something and just send it back is an exploit.

Yeah. Then the Slinger seems to be the best option for me. Definitely not the Builder.

 

[Victoria]

IMO sending a scouting unit out to swipe something and just send it back is an exploit.

I do not.... They will steal mine ... perhaps not with the same forethought and vigor but its allowed in the rules, you cannot capture and apostle but you can a settler... In civ V it used to turn into a worker if I remember correctly so this is an intentional change

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Your eureka graph is good. One little mistake, the eureka of Defense tactic is easily granted since a CIV's Suzerain city-states automatically declares war on you when you declare war on that CIV.

Also, you may want to research Mysticism before heading to Mercenaries. So the total amount is 891 if you don't get other sources of eurekas, or 831 if you get an encampment early.

 

[leif erikson]

I haven't yet attempted any of the 6otms, but just from browsing rules the game is going to be dramatically different than just straight randoming both map and civ and sticking with whatever situation you get. Yeah when you have an ideal civ with an ideal map location where you're already determined to not get squeezed I'm sure its easy to sneak scout first in without risk.

They aren't all like that. Try this one.
And build your Scout first.

edit - apologies, do not want to change the topic, but just couldn't let that pass.
Please do not answer me in this thread. Thanks.

 

[kb27787]

I've been following the thread. A couple of questions:

Instead of gifting a lux, why not just sell it for cash? With the money you get you can buy something. And if the AI DOWs, you get the lux back.

Is scout first just for SV, or Domination also? People who say they do it sometimes - what do they base the decision on?

Are people's opinions based on different goals, e.g. quickest win v most consistent win?

Would any new patch changes make a difference to your opinion?

Thanks y'all

The gpt also stops once they DoW you... you don't really make that much cash selling luxes because AI are very tough on giving lump sum gold (as opposed to gpt). Of course, if you find another AI far away to trade with then it's a different story. But even so, just to put it in perspective, let's say they pay you 6-7 gpt... it will take 20+ turns for that gold to equal the cost of a slinger! Now, I dunno but if I can last 20 turns after improving the lux (basically t30) then I usually win anyways! So trading it for gold will not pay off in the short run and in any case keeping it for the extra amenity point does very little.... 5% of yields early game is basically nothing. You might as well use it to make a friend out of a neighbor.

I dunno... the game I just played I saw Catherine's city within 6 tiles of my cap at t10 (her city and mine were on a horizontal line, parallel to the river so no river defense or good terrain/choke point) I would've preemptive DoW'd but the land was mostly flat and open such that I think her warriors could appear at my doorstep in 3-5 turns... luckily I had gone worker+mining, gave her some marble and a delegation straight off the bat... in 3 turns or so we were friends.
If I had played that out aggressively I'm not sure I would still be in that game.

I'm sure people's games would look starkly different from mine... as a former BNW player, I really, really, like making friends lol. Most of my games, I look up at the top of the screen and see a bunch of blue smiling faces or flags... and only maybe 1 or at most 2 yellow faces. Some games I am able to befriend the whole map of 7 other civs (trust me, the way diplomacy works is that it is MUCH easier to stay friends than to become friends). Sure my finish time will be much slower in terms of turns than if I had wiped out the whole map (I always feel rather unsatisfied when I win that way... I look at the black smoldering pillaged tiles and the red faces at the top and I feel kinda unfulfilled...), but it will be faster in realtime (as I do not need to fight at all so each turn goes by quickly... I'm pretty sure there was a BNW GotM which I finished in 58 minutes flat), and I'm pretty much at 0% risk of losing by getting wiped out because friends cannot DoW in Civ VI (and even in BNW it was quite safe to play without an army if you are friends with everyone).

 

[Victoria]

One little mistake, the eureka of Defense tactic is easily granted since a CIV's Suzerain city-states automatically declares war on you when you declare war on that CIV

Now if you called that a tip or correction it would sound better, it is not a mistake because I did not know about it.
There may be other tips people could give.

... thanks for the tip , very useful and my life is now much easier.

 

[Victoria]

The gpt also stops once they DoW you... you don't really make that much cash selling luxes because AI are very tough on giving lump sum gold (as opposed to gpt). Of course, if you find another AI far away to trade with then it's a different story. But even so, just to put it in perspective, let's say they pay you 6-7 gpt... it will take 20+ turns for that gold to equal the cost of a slinger! Now, I dunno but if I can last 20 turns after improving the lux (basically t30) then I usually win anyways! So trading it for gold will not pay off in the short run

If it's a culture lux then working the square early or even settling on it can be great just for the culture. Regardless, having a lux early is a no brainier if you can because the ai will swap a relic and gold for it in the ancient era, they treat it as worthless or worth 1 gold. If you spend the time each turn checking you will get a nice early faith generator, if you do not want the tourism, sell it for significant amounts in the medieval era to a low culture player.

As for just swapping it for 5-6 GPT. I am afraid I disagree that is not a lot. It's 2 tile expansions at a time you have little gold, those expansions give you an edge... has no-one noticed a little sentence whacker said in GOTM where he spends spare early gold on tiles. If we are talking efficiency, this is significant.

 

[EpicWestern]

They aren't all like that. Try this one.
And build your Scout first.

edit - apologies, do not want to change the topic, but just couldn't let that pass.
Please do not answer me in this thread. Thanks.

Sorry to respond, but you missed that that isn't deity difficulty. Also looks like a well above average start.