Lets talk public schooling

downtown

Crafternoon Delight
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
19,541
Location
Chicago
Me and ol' Sharpe were discussing this on the "why income inequality matters"...and I think its a very important issue that deserves some attention (and might be key in the solutions to all sorts of social problems)

I'd like to discuss how we fund our public school systems (pre-uni level), what the flaws of those systems are, and perhaps get some ideas rolling for alternatives. I'm going to be mainly discussing the US system, since thats all I am familiar with, but I'd love to hear other perspectives, and find out what works and doesn't work abroad.

Jerchiohill made two key comments on that other thread. One being "Education x3 is the key", and the other 'Capitalism isn't supposed to create equality in results, but equality in opportunity" (I might have butchered that. sorry.) In my view, those are both right, but the current public school financing plan kills that. Kids do not get an equal shot, because public school options are not close to equal.

Why? Well, public districts are mostly paid for via the district's property taxes. Naturally, if the district is a poor area (and thus, has low property value), the district gets less money, even if it takes in more students than a more affluent district. Why I don't pretend to paint the issue of educational disparity as just a "pump more money into it" sort of thing, (I know it isn't that simple), its obvious that poorer districts are at a big disadvantage, and students lose because of that.

There are a few purposed solutions. One is to increase the involvement of the state and federal governments (grants to poor districts). They do this to some extent already, but some groups would like more involvement to close the gap. I'm not really a fan of this, because I think its dangerous to get administrators hooked on free money. Plus, the state/feds will then want more control over what goes on in each district, which most people don't want.

Another solution are school vouchers, which allow children to attend private school. I'm really not a fan of this either. First, its using taxpayer money to support religious education (if I wanted to support catholic schools...I'd send my kids to one). Also, private schools have no oversight from the state, so basically anybody can work there, which leads to subpar administrators.

I have a few ideas of my own...but lets hear your thoughts!
 
The biggest flaws are the unrulely students and the "smart = uncool" atitude coupled with parents that don't know how to parent.
These 'tudes exsist in the poorer areas where being 50cent or Labron James maters more then getting a good education and work expeirience.
Money isn't the problem. If it was homeschool kids wouldn't learn anything.
There are a few other problems too like class size, and teaching so much crap then the 3 R's like its ok to be gay (not that I think it isn't I just think its not appropriate for school) , standardized testing that takes up time from learning formulas, and one that really irks me is passing failures on to the next grade.

School is for learning it is not a fashion show or social hang out.
 
High class size is a result of overcrowded buildings and low staffs...i.e. a money problem.

My mother runs (and I've worked for) a rather large internet homeschool in ohio, and has worked with others, so we've seen a pretty big sample size of homeschoolers. I'd say that *most* are quite unprepared when they "graduate". There are circumstances when its a good idea, but most parents are not even close to qualified to teach high school.

I'm not really seeking to fix all thats wrong with schools...I'd like this to focus on one particular problem, and thats funding. Your student at a suburban high school where homes run in the 300,000s will have smaller classes, more electives, better college prep programs, more sports, and better physical resources than a poor district, because the property taxes will put more money into it.
 
Its not all lack of funds but how those funds are spent too. The shortage of classes is a problem of developers not building schools for the hundreds of thousands new homes they build. I live in the 'burbs and we need a new high, middle and two elementary schools. Its so bad the landfill owner who wants to expand his trash hole tried bribing the city with a new school. In the next city over they built a multi million dollar theater for the school but still have kids in portable trailers for classes. And I don't live in a cheap 'hood either the average single family house is well over 300k.

I personaly went to a high school with just a basket ball team. They figured culinary arts, hortaculture, small engines, carpentry and autoshop were better then sports teams.

If there is one successful kid from an "underfunded" school there is no financial reason for any other kid to make the most of the situation.

And
I think all schools should be run like D.O.D.D.S. shools (department of defence dependant schooling).
 
The biggest flaws are the unrulely students and the "smart = uncool" atitude coupled with parents that don't know how to parent.
These 'tudes exsist in the poorer areas where being 50cent or Labron James maters more then getting a good education and work expeirience.
Money isn't the problem. If it was homeschool kids wouldn't learn anything.
There are a few other problems too like class size, and teaching so much crap then the 3 R's like its ok to be gay (not that I think it isn't I just think its not appropriate for school) , standardized testing that takes up time from learning formulas, and one that really irks me is passing failures on to the next grade.

School is for learning it is not a fashion show or social hang out.

I must say that you have covered all the points that I would bring up.
 
Its not all lack of funds but how those funds are spent too. The shortage of classes is a problem of developers not building schools for the hundreds of thousands new homes they build.
I think all schools should be run like D.O.D.D.S. shools (department of defence dependant schooling).

Well, the developers would be at fault if the district is in a growing area (although developers cannot build a new school building without tax money from the community, usually in the form of property taxes from a school levy)...but rapidly growing areas tend to be areas with more expensive homes. The communities that get hit hardest with school funding are small rural districts that are too spread out to combine with another district, and landlocked urban, poor districts.

What do you mean by DODDS spending?
 
DODDS is what the goverment uses to teach children of active duty military and civilians stationed over sees.

http://www.dodea.edu/
 
The problem certainly isn't money. It is the fact that the money is not utilized properly. For example, I went to a school where there was a television and computer in every classroom that were never used for educational purposes but to contrast, it was hard to find a pencil sharpener.

To improve matters, the government has to increase teacher's salaries to the point where teaching becomes economically attractive for people to become teachers. Why would a person who worked hard to get say get an engineering degree decide to become a math or physics teacher when the pay is so much lower?

Another problem is that it is next to impossible to remove bad teachers because of the teacher's unions and believe me there are a lot of bad teachers.
 
Well, the developers would be at fault if the district is in a growing area (although developers cannot build a new school building without tax money from the community, usually in the form of property taxes from a school levy)...but rapidly growing areas tend to be areas with more expensive homes. The communities that get hit hardest with school funding are small rural districts that are too spread out to combine with another district, and landlocked urban, poor districts.

In Maryland, Baltimore city schools get the vast majority of the money for education yet still have shown little educational improvements. The rural areas around where I live have some of the crappiest technology to work with and cannot fund strong AP programs like other school districts can. First of all, I think every school should have a minimum of AP Calc, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP English, AP Physics, and AP US History being taught. Kids should not be allowed into the next grade if they even have one F on their report card. More than 5 absences total excused/not excused should equal automatic failure of that semester's classes.
 
ALERT controversial jibba-jabba ahoy
You cant isolate this problem, its part of a very complex(ly) flawed system and culture. In our society there is no equality,in life or oppertunity. If your born into a poor family your odds of capitalist success pale in comparison to being of rich blood.
Education reflects that, they rich enjoy private schools the poorer dont. ive been to both Torontos poorest (or near poorest) schools, and rich ones. And a A from a poor one is compared to a -B of a high-end public, or private school.
The educaional system keeps poor kids poor. i noticed around me the failure rate of kids at poor school wasmuch higher the a rich school. Why?
a)worse equipment
b)worse teachers
c)it bred a culture of failing

Not tomenion they overcrowded the schools. (i know a class of 14 wont hapen, but 40 kids is insane)

Another solution are school vouchers, which allow children to attend private school. I'm really not a fan of this either. First, its using taxpayer money to support religious education (if I wanted to support catholic schools...I'd send my kids to one). Also, private schools have no oversight from the state, so basically anybody can work there, which leads to subpar administrators.

true, but it also enables more advanced curriculem, and many things not legislated by the goverment. Best schol i went too was a privateone, and what they did would never fly in a public school
 
Also, private schools have no oversight from the state, so basically anybody can work there, which leads to subpar administrators.

I don't know about where you live, but where I live the teachers' unions have such a hold on the state that it is next to impossible to get a teacher fired almost no matter how incompetent.
 
Money isn't the problem. If it was homeschool kids wouldn't learn anything.

Excuse me?

I'm homeschooled, and I'm above my average peers in almost all subjects.
 
A good student will rise to the top no matter how crappy the school. Beside when ever you hand money over to the government they will find the quickest way to waste it. Most students today are not worth the money to build nice new schools for they will just ruin the campus. If anything they should cut school spending until the teachers and staff at the school and get the students to produce something other then crap.
 
I don't know about where you live, but where I live the teachers' unions have such a hold on the state that it is next to impossible to get a teacher fired almost no matter how incompetent.

Thats true, but there is still a fairly comprehensive certifitcation program for public school teachers, and even more for administrators. Private schools have nothing. Any CFC poster could walk right up and teach/be a principle at a private school.
 
Back
Top Bottom