Leveraging Protective

[Wodan]

This article is going to begin as a work in progress.

I thought I would first allow some discussion in regard to:
1) What strategies exist and should be outlined in the article
2) Assumptions and good settings to perform a real-life test to illustrate each strategy

I prefer to have this discussion beforehand, to allow others who care to offer their input. I believe this will result in a better end product article.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Strategies

• Engineering beeline: Walls & early Castles Everywhere, late to Economics
• Engineering beeline: Early Trebs, early Pikes
• The Drill Promotion line instead of CR or Combat
• Defense options vs sneak attacks
• Units as defensive AND offensive (multipurpose armies vs specialist armies)
• Fort defense, cannot be reduced but gain CG; synergy with Drill
• Feudalism slingshot
• Machinery slingshot

Others? (speak up!)

Other Benefits

• Many units used by Pro strats do not require strategic resources

Leader Specifics

• UU synergy
• UB synergy

 

[Wodan]

Assumptions

Depends on which strategy is being illustrated. I'm thinking it's going to take a mixture of a real sample game, then tweaked using WB to create different situations. This has the benefit that the base game will be identical. No-one should be able to complain that the game was played differently or something happened during the game that affected the situation. WB will be necessary, though, to do something such as change units from Drill promotioned Xbows to CR promoted Maces, that sort of thing.

As the strategy list is finalized, the assumptions can likewise be discussed in detail.

Wodan

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

My favorite use of protective is with unrestricted leaders, and Mali. Protective skirmishers can wipe out any civ in an early rush. They can get cover right from the beginning, and all they'll be facing is other archers.

 

[Bandobras Took]

One thing you might want to do is include a section for specific Civs. Protective does not exist in a vacuum.

Saladin (Protective/Spiritual)
Mao Zedong (Protective/Expansive)
Qin Shi Huang (Protective/Industrious)
Churchill (Protective/Charismatic)
Tokugawa (Protective/Aggressive)
Wang Kon (Protective/Financial)
Charlemagne (Protective/Imperialistic)
Sitting Bull (Protective/Philosophical)
Gilgamesh (Protective/Creative)

Obviously, different Civs will have different uses, but of the CIVs with Protective:

Mao/Qin can tear you apart with Cho-ko-Nus.
Churchill can tear you apart with Redcoats.
Tokugawa's Gunpowder units start with Combat I, City Garrison I, and Drill I.
Charlemagne and Gilgamesh each have astonishing chances at large empires through their UBs.
Sitting Bull's UB enhances archery units.
Wang Kon and Saladin I'm not sure about.

But it seems that the default Protective civs actually can make use of that trait in various ways that aren't as obvious when considered in a void.

I would also mention that protective gives you a viable military that depends on no resources. Even aggressive often requires hooking up metals.

 

[Wodan]

I doubt I'll tackle unrestricted leaders, though maybe it's worth a mention in the introduction or something.

Good point BT. I'm thinking those will exist not so much as an appendix detailing each civ/leader, but rather perhaps each section of the article will pick one or two civ/leaders to use as example of that strategy.

There are other oddball examples, as well. Such as taking Tokugawa's Samurais, promoting up CR (or something), then upgrading them to gunpowder units for the free promotions.

Wodan

 

[Bhruic]

Such as taking Tokugawa's Samurais, promoting up CR (or something), then upgrading them to gunpowder units for the free promotions.

I don't understand what you mean here - what free promotions would you get by upgrading them?

Bh

 

[VirusMonster]

don't upgraded Samurais get CityGarrison I bonus?

 

[Bhruic]

I just tried it, and they didn't for me. I can't recall ever getting free promotions from upgrading, unless it's a promotion inherent to the unit itself (and not granted by traits).

Bh

 

[Wodan]

You're correct, I just tested myself as well. I thought they did, but I guess not.

Wodan

 

[johnny_rico]

One thing you might want to do is include a section for specific Civs. Protective does not exist in a vacuum.

Saladin (Protective/Spiritual)
Mao Zedong (Protective/Expansive)
Qin Shi Huang (Protective/Industrious)
Churchill (Protective/Charismatic)
Tokugawa (Protective/Aggressive)
Wang Kon (Protective/Financial)
Charlemagne (Protective/Imperialistic)
Sitting Bull (Protective/Philosophical)
Gilgamesh (Protective/Creative)

Obviously, different Civs will have different uses, but of the CIVs with Protective:

Mao/Qin can tear you apart with Cho-ko-Nus.
Churchill can tear you apart with Redcoats.
Tokugawa's Gunpowder units start with Combat I, City Garrison I, and Drill I.
Charlemagne and Gilgamesh each have astonishing chances at large empires through their UBs.
Sitting Bull's UB enhances archery units.
Wang Kon and Saladin I'm not sure about.

But it seems that the default Protective civs actually can make use of that trait in various ways that aren't as obvious when considered in a void.

I would also mention that protective gives you a viable military that depends on no resources. Even aggressive often requires hooking up metals.

Crossbows require Iron.

More notes:

Don't forget about the feudalism slingshot (especially with sitting bull)

If one is going to rely on the drill line for offensive units, a beeline to engineering should be considered if planning to be offensive. Stacks of trebs to soften cities will improve surivival rates of troops. That way, during wartime, mostly seige units are being produced vs. trying to reinforce a front with sorely needed troops. As the AI tends to build cities on hills, more often than not, it is wise to have a series of troops pursue the guerilla promotion line. It will be eaiser to hold those cities once captured, and if units reach guerilla III, the retreat option is fantastic.

Since protective, unlike most traits, offers nada towards the improvement of one's economy, I often like to utilize espionage with protective. That includes building the great wall and getting alphabet sooner than later. Spies can be used to steal techs in the early game and can also be used to great advantage during wartime. Counter espionage missions are clutch, as well as reducing defense to 0, and switching civics away from slavery during a war. I find the AI will make use of the whip when DoW'ed. If you bounced them out of slavery just before the war, it is a lot of initial extra troops you won't have to deal with.

I like the Took's idea to have a section dedicated to different ideas for each protective leader.

I'll add more later. I think protective is the most underrated trait. However, getting the most out of it involves a different style of play.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Since protective, unlike most traits, offers nada towards the improvement of one's economy, I often like to utilize espionage with protective.

There's always the +1 trade route from cheap castles. For all the 10 turns that will last.

 

[Wodan]

There's always the +1 trade route from cheap castles. For all the 10 turns that will last.

That's already listed. And, properly done, it will last quite a bit longer.

Anyway different/distinct strategies are what I'm hoping for people to suggest, before I write the article.

Wodan

 

[Grifftavian]

Don't forget about the feudalism slingshot (especially with sitting bull)

Yes, I think the early strategy with Protective should be to beeline Archery and Feudalism, and switch to Vassalage Civic. With Barracks and Vassalage, your Longbowmen can be promoted to City Garrison III. Cities build on hills with CG III Longbowmen behind Walls would be a tough nut to crack. Sitting Bull, with a Barracks and his UB Totem Pole can even produce CG III Archers.

Also, you can probably defend you cities with just a couple of CG III Longbowmen, allowing you to create more offensive troops for your conquests without breaking the bank.

 

[mystyfly]

Mao/Qin can tear you apart with Cho-ko-Nus.
Churchill can tear you apart with Redcoats.
Tokugawa's Gunpowder units start with Combat I, City Garrison I, and Drill I.
Charlemagne and Gilgamesh each have astonishing chances at large empires through their UBs.
Sitting Bull's UB enhances archery units.
Wang Kon and Saladin I'm not sure about.

Note about Gilgamesh: Since early Priesthood is nice for ultra-early Courts, The Oracle often is your friend. From The Oracle you can take MC. Then you can do that Machinery sling via GE. Have fun with ultra-early protective-boosted XBows.

Dunno, probabely worth mentioning. Even if it dictates almost your whole early game, but still...

 

[Wodan]

Since protective, unlike most traits, offers nada towards the improvement of one's economy

Not quite true: castles; but I take your point.

I often like to utilize espionage with protective. That includes building the great wall and getting alphabet sooner than later. Spies can be used to steal techs in the early game and can also be used to great advantage during wartime. Counter espionage missions are clutch, as well as reducing defense to 0, and switching civics away from slavery during a war. I find the AI will make use of the whip when DoW'ed. If you bounced them out of slavery just before the war, it is a lot of initial extra troops you won't have to deal with.

All excellent ideas. However, unless I'm missing something, it doesn't have any synergy with Pro, and other traits can do it just as easily. So, I don't think it belongs here. If espionage is really such a good economic aid, then it can be done by other Traits to make them even better. (Which I agree it is, and it can be, so it does not add to the comparison of Pro to those Traits.)

I'll add more later. I think protective is the most underrated trait. However, getting the most out of it involves a different style of play.

I totally agree. Which is why for this article.

I think people try to use Pro with their tried-and-true strats and gameplay style. Which is nonsense. You don't play the same way when you have a Fin leader, why assume you should play the same way with a Pro leader? The same is true of Agg or anything, really. To honestly get the most out of it, it's best used with a Nationalism strat, a Combat-line promotions strat, etc. Ditto with Pro.

Wodan

 

[Bandobras Took]

One advantage of beelining Engineering is that your Drill-promoted army can be wiped out by Mounted units, so prioritizing anti-Cavalry is a must. You want to be able to produce Pikemen to counter mounted units. And you really don't have to worry about Melee units at all.

 

[Wodan]

Excellent point. I've added it to the list.

Wodan

 

[Winth]

I don't know if that counts, but Protective is great for Multiplayer. It really helps in choking and preventing the block from your enemy forces, cheap walls/castles can be a life-saver in a city elimination game.

 

[Wodan]

I can see how first strike would help in a choke strategy. Good idea.

Not sure I understand what city elimination has to do with anything. No difference between your opponent capturing your cities vs razing them.

The question is does cheap walls/castles help more vs a human than vs an AI? Not sure the answer to that. A human will do things such as choke or go on a pillage campaign, if he sees the city defenses are too strong. The AI isn't smart enough to do that.

So, walls/castles will be a deterrent vs a human and may give you time to rally a counter attack force, but at the cost of a pillage or choke. But, you keep your city. Vs an AI, the walls/castles will often simply allow your defenders to kill all the attackers, making a counter attack force not require as many units.

Wodan