Bandobras Took
Emperor
Charlemagne is the only Protective leader to start with Hunting. That gives him a leg up on getting archery.
Leveraging Protective
- Thread starter Wodan
- Start date
Wodan
Deity
There's a guy on Poly who's done a couple of walk-through games to do archery rushes.
Getting archery early simply for defense seems like a good idea, as well, if one operates under the presumption that Protective might be better suited to not rush at all, but to grow peacefully during the early game.
Wodan
Getting archery early simply for defense seems like a good idea, as well, if one operates under the presumption that Protective might be better suited to not rush at all, but to grow peacefully during the early game.
Wodan
Wejer
Mentor
Speaking of Charlemagne...
His Landsknecht UU comes with Engineering, which also brings Castle, Trebutchets and +1 road movement. This may turn out excellent for war.
TabascoBob
Chieftain
Wodan, looking forward to the article. I was lurking and paging through articles while home with the flu (not up to playing) and saw a couple by VirusMonster and others that inspired me to try a game. Sitting Bull, protective leverage and espionage economy (now that I have alphabet). Amazingly, after popping Metal Casting, I Oracled Machinery. Now all I'm doing is pumping out spys, crossbows and missionaries.... should be fun, I feel better already
Wodan
Deity
I've still got this on my list but got sidetracked with a SE->CE walkthrough, plus RL issues. I'll get to it eventually. 
Wodan
Wodan
johnny_rico
one more turn addict
I'm wondering how many ways there are to initial xp's on drafted units. For instance, I believe drafted units will start with +2 xp's if drafting under theocracy. But I don't think the barracks works. What about west point and/or settled military instructors.
I was trying to think of the means to getting drafted units to start with 4 xp. With churchill, you could be drafting some serious redcoats; coupled with the globe theatre, that's some power.
I was trying to think of the means to getting drafted units to start with 4 xp. With churchill, you could be drafting some serious redcoats; coupled with the globe theatre, that's some power.
Drafting causes the experience received from training to become halved. Therefore, to get 4xp you get to be capable to creating regular units with 8-9xp. The only city that can do this, outside of settled great generals, is a Theo/Vass+Barracks+WestPoint city. Later on, with Pentagon and running both Theo and Vass you can draft 4xp land units in any city with a barracks.
Under Theo with a barracks you get 5xp; divided by 2 and round down and you get 2. Thus, both are "working".
Under Theo with a barracks you get 5xp; divided by 2 and round down and you get 2. Thus, both are "working".
johnny_rico
one more turn addict
Ah, I didn't realize xp's were halved. But knowing that, it is certainly possible to get to 8 xp's relatively easy. The problem is, you wouldn't want to burn a couple of GG's as instructors in a globe theatre drafting city.
But vassalage wouldn't be a factor. If you're running vassalage, you cannot draft units.
But vassalage wouldn't be a factor. If you're running vassalage, you cannot draft units.
Wodan
Deity
Drafted units still get "free" promotions from Protective, Aggressive, etc. That's the best bang for the buck you're going to find, really. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it and use those GGs on high XP Warlords to stiffen your grunt troops.
Wodan
Wodan
Hey Wodan, I just saw that post you made in the Chitzen Itza thread, saying that the defensive bonus from CI was un-bombardable. That made me think that maybe CI could be combined with protective to great effect.
Spefically, what I'm thinking is that you could build Chitzen Itza and the statue of zeus, beeline engineering, build castles at all your border cities, and then declare war on all the civs who are in the lead. Then- DON'T attack them. just keep putting longbows in your cities, and let them attack you. With luck, they'll waste tons of units against your defenses, and be crippled by war weariness.
I'm not sure how feasible this is though, because I know the AI gets a huge discount on WW. I do know that I've crippled several people in MP with WW by fighting defensive wars, though.
Spefically, what I'm thinking is that you could build Chitzen Itza and the statue of zeus, beeline engineering, build castles at all your border cities, and then declare war on all the civs who are in the lead. Then- DON'T attack them. just keep putting longbows in your cities, and let them attack you. With luck, they'll waste tons of units against your defenses, and be crippled by war weariness.
I'm not sure how feasible this is though, because I know the AI gets a huge discount on WW. I do know that I've crippled several people in MP with WW by fighting defensive wars, though.
Wodan
Deity
What you're talking about, pi, is exactly one of the strats the article will discuss in detail.
I haven't done the math yet, but in my experience the AI isn't terribly crippled, not like a human would be, by the WW. It does have an impact though and it's worth doing. In particular, however, the impact is felt on the AI's build priorities. Basically, the AI will keep building units and will throw them at you in penny packets. Do you want the AI making more universities and banks in its cities, or do you want it making units that you easily wipe out? Meanwhile you keep getting more and more XP.
One game I had 11 or 12 warlord units. Or, I could have attached them to my military city for ~30 XP out of the gate. But, I find warlords are simply too much fun when you use them en masse. What are they... tactics and commando, I think... that give +1 move an allow you to use enemy roads. Combined with spys to invoke revolt, you can easily take cities in one turn, just run in and take them with a bunch of warlords.
Anyway, the CI and Protective obviously have a synergy and it's worth leveraging. It's a totally different playstyle than most people are used to, however. I'll be interested in seeing what people think when I finish the article.
Wodan
I haven't done the math yet, but in my experience the AI isn't terribly crippled, not like a human would be, by the WW. It does have an impact though and it's worth doing. In particular, however, the impact is felt on the AI's build priorities. Basically, the AI will keep building units and will throw them at you in penny packets. Do you want the AI making more universities and banks in its cities, or do you want it making units that you easily wipe out? Meanwhile you keep getting more and more XP.
One game I had 11 or 12 warlord units. Or, I could have attached them to my military city for ~30 XP out of the gate. But, I find warlords are simply too much fun when you use them en masse. What are they... tactics and commando, I think... that give +1 move an allow you to use enemy roads. Combined with spys to invoke revolt, you can easily take cities in one turn, just run in and take them with a bunch of warlords.
Anyway, the CI and Protective obviously have a synergy and it's worth leveraging. It's a totally different playstyle than most people are used to, however. I'll be interested in seeing what people think when I finish the article.
Wodan
Bandobras Took
Emperor
I've found the great advantage not to be War Weariness so much as an opposing AI diverting their resources into fruitless wartime production -- I played a game where Shaka declared on me with the end result that I never even had to invade him because he didn't bother expanding to the territory northward -- he just kept trying to kill the first city he came across.
Hmm, interesting. Maybe I'll give that a try with Charlemagne, and put that imperialistic trait to good use. I've always found imperialistic somewhat awkward, almost as much as protective.
Update: my game with Charlemagne is not going so well. Zara yaqkob is the leader, and when I declared war on him, hoping to get him bogged down in a useless war against my defenses, he simply ignored me for a while then used the AP to force peace against me. He's on the other side of the pangaea, with sitting bull in between us, who's last in everything and everybody hates. I think the geography + leader personalities may have foiled this attempt, which is annoying because it was going really well at first (having stone nearby is NICE, even though I didn't build the 'mids).
Update: my game with Charlemagne is not going so well. Zara yaqkob is the leader, and when I declared war on him, hoping to get him bogged down in a useless war against my defenses, he simply ignored me for a while then used the AP to force peace against me. He's on the other side of the pangaea, with sitting bull in between us, who's last in everything and everybody hates. I think the geography + leader personalities may have foiled this attempt, which is annoying because it was going really well at first (having stone nearby is NICE, even though I didn't build the 'mids).
Bandobras Took
Emperor
Yeah, it won't work too well when the other guy has to march across the map to get at you. In the Shaka example, he was my next door neighbor (Literally; I had room for one city between my capital and his).
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 2,029
Charlemagne is one of the most difficult leaders to play. Don't be too hard on yourself. I find him overly complicated and frankly, not my style at all. There are much better protective leaders out there.
obsolete
Deity
I have NEVER seen an AI crippled by war weariness, even when fighting for thousands of years.
Human player... yes.
AI...no.
r_rolo1
King of myself
^^You play Immortal/Deity .... Prince- AI get hit pretty badly by WW, especially because the AI is very inept avoiding/managing WW ( at any level )
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Crippled no, but I do think it slows them down. Maybe we need some research to quantify how much, but I've seen them slow down a lot on Emperor when engaged in a conflict they can't get out of.
obsolete
Deity
This thread inspired me to finally give Japan a shot after all this time. Started Immortal, Pangae map. Warmongering sure is easy as hell so far. I eliminated one civ already, vassaled another, and am working on my 3'rd vassal.
After I get back next week, I'll try to continue. Can't wait for mech-infantry to kick in. But for now, I'm doing fine with 4 drill promoted sammuri.
After I get back next week, I'll try to continue. Can't wait for mech-infantry to kick in. But for now, I'm doing fine with 4 drill promoted sammuri.
Cool. Are you going to make a game report on this? I would be interested. I find Japan difficult because I tend to conquer way too much and just go broke.
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