Liberalism tech

[JulesDogg]

What tech do you grab if you get Liberalism first?

 

[lymond]

It's very situational and depends on several factors. There is not just one almighty tech that you take with Lib. Also, depends quite a bit on how fast you are teching compared to the AI. If they are not even close to Lib, I usually tech to within 1 turn of Lib and then start teching and trading to a prereq that will give me an even better tech like Steel or MT or some peaceful techs like SM.

If you are on tech parity and racing for Lib then the following techs are generally taken:

Nationalism - Build Taj and Draft
Astronomy - Great for Watery maps or isolation (opens foreign trade routes and overseas navy, plus observatory aint bad either)
Chemistry - workshops are now viable along with Guilds and leads to Steel for rockin' cannons
(Note: I often try to tech Chem first to try to Lib Steel if going the military route)
Printing Press -nice boost to commerce and on path to a whole bunch of good stuff both peaceful and military.

The above are the ones I generally go for unless I have the opportunity to hold off for more advanced techs. Nationalism seems quite popular to get an edge on the Taj and makes decent trade bait later, but beware that AIs often shoot for Nat.

 

[2metraninja]

Most people go for Nationalism. Especially in multiplayer.

I sometimes go for the economic one that gives Great Merchant.

 

[Fleme]

Nationalism is the "easy" call and what I assume to be a common goal for Libbing - especially if you're going for that early pre 500 AD lib where little other goals are available.

If you have full knowledge of what the enemies are teching and how fast they're getting there, it's useful to research lib to 1 turns from ready and then pursue other goals. Steel for one can win you the game right then and there if you get a decisive monopoly edge on it and is something I occasionally go for. For other more fancy Libs, there are Assembly Line, Biology and Democracy to consider - all of which I would pursue in select scenarios if the situation allowed for it.

Granted, the aforementioned scenarios are few and far between and for the more common libs I'd say PP/RP/Nat

 

[Tristan_C]

Are there any Emp+ games on the forum that took Lib-Assembly Line? I'd like to see that.

 

[mariogreymist]

Nationalism is the "easy" call and what I assume to be a common goal for Libbing - especially if you're going for that early pre 500 AD lib where little other goals are available.

If you have full knowledge of what the enemies are teching and how fast they're getting there, it's useful to research lib to 1 turns from ready and then pursue other goals. Steel for one can win you the game right then and there if you get a decisive monopoly edge on it and is something I occasionally go for. For other more fancy Libs, there are Assembly Line, Biology and Democracy to consider - all of which I would pursue in select scenarios if the situation allowed for it.

Granted, the aforementioned scenarios are few and far between and for the more common libs I'd say PP/RP/Nat

I have grabbed some of those high end techs with liberalism, but I don't often go for anything more advanced than Steel anymore, and there is a good reason. If one is planning to adopt Free Religion, then delaying liberalism has an opportunity cost of 10% of the scientific output of the empire.

This is a moot point if you're planning on retaining religion, but 9/10 of the time I want FR for its diplomatic and scientific benefits. Taking Nationalism, then researching Constitution (for Representation) will usually result in getting to Assembly line faster than if I stopped one turn short of liberalism and researched all the pre-reqs without the research benefits of FR/Reps.

There is a time and place when delaying liberalism for a big tech makes sense, but only if you have S Paya or need to retain religion.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Well, I'd grab Liberalism ASAP to get its benefits not just the free tech. That free tech is usually situational but when in doubt (ok, usually the choice is dictated by the strategy you have been following), grab the most expensive one that is also useful to you. As often as not, that tends to be Astronomy which also happens to be very useful in a lot of situations.

 

[Framesticker]

Here a few generic choices:

Nationalism - Opens up both the Draft and the Taj Mahal, which can be useful for a GA anarchy-free into the array of new civics available around this time (Free Religion, Free Speech, Free Market, Emancipation, Universal Suffrage, Representation, etc.)

Astronomy - EXTREMELY benefical on all maps that feature at least populated landmasses, for both intercontinental trade routes and intercontinental invasions (Galleons/Frigates). Observatories can also give up quite a boost in your good science cities.

Economics - Free Market is awesome for Trade-route based economies and Custom Houses can be quite useful as well. The free Great Merchant can fund research for quite some time, too.

Printing Press - With lots of cottages, this can be as much +200BPT from just taking this tech, which is huge - and that's not including Free Speech yet.

Sometimes, if you have a big tech lead, you can sometimes take much better like Biology or Assembly Line, but that's rare.

 

[Nez477]

In a current game I'm playing, actually my first Prince game that I feel I have a good chance of winning, I am Washington and was the first to circumnavigate and also got Liberalism on a 3-continent map.... I went with Astronomy and it seems to be paying dividends

 

[Yamps]

If one is planning to adopt Free Religion, then delaying liberalism has an opportunity cost of 10% of the scientific output of the empire.

Note that free religion only gives +10% to the base beaker output of the city, not to the total. That's a very marginal contribution, especially if you have other multipliers like Academy and Oxford done already.

 

[mariogreymist]

Note that free religion only gives +10% to the base beaker output of the city, not to the total. That's a very marginal contribution, especially if you have other multipliers like Academy and Oxford done already.

True, and the overall effect of the FR benefit is variable based on a large number of factors. Even if you consider that the gross effect of the bonus is as low as 3% (and only civs that get a large majority of their from 1-2 specialized cities drive it that low), that means that 33 turns is the break even point for delaying FR. That is, if you're out to get Democracy, you need to research Nationalism, Constitution, and Printing Press in that amount of time to make the benefit worth the cost.

And that's discounting the danger of a zealot DoWing during the same period based on "heathen religion" modifiers. This of course depends on who and where your opponents are. Lots of nearby zealots with differing religions makes FR more valuable.

Delaying for a bigger tech is not nearly as beneficial as I used to believe. I will now do it only for steel (which usually requires trading for guilds and engineering, then researching gunpowder and chem), and only when an early steel monopoly will lead the way to an easy domination win. If I am going for culture or space, I just take liberalism ASAP for either nationalism (if my economy is based more on specialists) or astronomy (based on cottages/trade) and let the bonuses (FR+ either reps specialists or overseas trade) get me to things like Demo and Steel well ahead of my competition.

 

[mariogreymist]

Are there any Emp+ games on the forum that took Lib-Assembly Line? I'd like to see that.

Here's one I played today that could have done that, in all likelihood. A good map for someone trying to beat emperor for the first time, but not for emperor players looking for a challenge. (except maybe to see what the best tech is you can get for liberalism)

Spoiler :

The key is the rush. Get your immortals, then take the large landmass.

I went for liberalism>nationalism because I wanted to get FR for diplomatic protection (I was thinking space from about 1500BCE forward), but if you manage to build the 'mids (I did it in Athens) then a dedicated reps/castes/pacifism approach will yield just silly tech rates here. It's a cottage spam dream map, with the single best leader with which to do it. There are a couple of good GPP sites too. (it's not a challenging map, if that's what you're looking for)

Settings: Darius of Persia (Fin/Org), Large map, tectonics (70% water), epic speed, no huts, emperor difficulty