Life Drawing - art or porn, sexual or not?

[sanabas]

Did a bit of googling following on from stuff written in this thread, and found this article. A few months old, but doesn't matter. Is all nudity, even that which is ostensibly art, automatically sexual and/or porn? Should the teacher be suspended/fired? Poll coming, although I make no promises about the neutrality of the options.

PETE PANSE is a talented and popular high school art teacher in Middletown, NY who uses traditional techniques to to train his students. In December 2005 Mr. Panse was suspended from his job for recommending that some of his advanced students consider taking figure drawing courses that included nude figure drawings. Mr. Panse is suspended from his job pending hearings after which he may be permanently fired, ending a 25-year teaching career. In the meantime, his students are sitting in study hall learning nothing and failing to prepare the materials necessary for their receiving scholarships.

In his discussions with students Mr. Panse mentioned several options for advancing their figure drawing skills; the local community college, a nearby frame shop that sponsors art classes, and the prestigious New York Academy of Art. He also described pre-college figure drawing programs at several other New York City art schools, and a highly successful art college prep program called the Mill Street Loft.

In addition to these established courses, Mr. Panse also indicated that he was considering the possibility of offering an intensive figure drawing program of his own (8 hours a day every Saturday for 35 weeks). This proposed course would also be open to area art teachers, and would have required that parents serve as chaperones to ensure a strong adult presence. Ultimately, Mr. Panse was unable to locate inexpensive space for a studio and was prevented from carrying out his plan because of the controversy that erupted over the proposal.

Panse told his students that if his own figure drawing class materialized, he would be obligated to submit any advertisement to the school principal for approval, and that a denial might preclude him from offering the course to his own students, for their consideration. The mere mention of the "possibility" of a "future" course, and discussions in the "theoretical" are what the school board regards as a fireable offense in this case.

What the charges are...

Specifically, Mr. Panse was charged with making “comments that students could construe as being of a sexual or personal nature...or using [his] position as a teacher to put students into any situation reasonably likely to make them feel uncomfortable because of the injection of sexuality into...the substance of [his] comments”. .......

 

[.Shane.]

Just more prudishness.

 

[CaptainF]

Art. Sexual in nature, but not porn.

Anyone who thinks this is porn is a n00b and has probably never even seen themself naked.

 

[Ramius75]

Its Art, sexual in nature, and there is nothing wrong with it. Its an appreciation of the human body aesthetically.

 

[Rhymes]

The line between art and porn is so far away that it isn't worth talking about it. Definitely art.

 

[Shylock]

hehehe, Mr. Panse (I'm assuming pronouced pansy).

The way I figure for a picture to be porn there has to be something sexual going on clearly. The Venus de Milo may look like she might be giving herself the finger so to speak, but in context it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[ironduck]

I can't believe this crap.. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised with the whole Janet Jackson boob hysteria though, but man.. I would be worried to live in the US, so many things I take as natural and positive are considered 'immoral' by the majority consensus there.

And for the record - life drawing just means drawing from life (live models). The nature of the drawings is completely up to the artist so it makes no sense whatsoever to label them before they have even been created!

Most life drawing is training and practicing for anyone who is curious to know.

 

[downtown]

I cant possibily see how life drawing could be taken as porn. I dont even really think its all that sexual.,

Also, my vote for "life drawing is not appropriate for high school, okay for college" has nothing to do with the fact that it involves naked people. Since most art classes in public schools are more general classes, I think that life drawing is usually too complicated for 16 year olds. Clearly, these students were advanced, and then this would be a fine thing to study outside of school

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I can't believe this crap.. I guess I shouldn't be too surprised with the whole Janet Jackson boob hysteria though, but man.. I would be worried to live in the US, so many things I take as natural and positive are considered 'immoral' by the majority consensus there.
.

its ironic, one of my classes this spring involved a trip to europe (on which i did not go, for financial reasons), and all i heard about it was how open sex is over there: topless girls on billboards, things that, over here in America, are more than frowned upon, they are stictly forbidden

 

[Sidhe]

There's more than one story on this subject. My God get ye America back into the 19th century where ye belong? Good job there are people who can apreciate art on an aesthetic level in the world, anyone who finds those drawings porn has a screw loose somewhere IMO.

EDIT Can't people who think art is porn go live in an isolotationist community and completely conceal there bodies with 19th century clothing, instead of forcing there antiquated opinions into the eyes of a world that doesn't care? Even the Amish would find this amusing if they had computers, or acces to the internet, which they may well do by now for all I know I fully realise that this is a minority opinion of prudes btw.

Interesting they appear to have web sites, I apologise to Amish communities everywhere it's an unfair comparrison, since some people appear to be even more antiquated.

 

[Tulkas12]

Just more prudishness.

Jesus, we are alot closer to NAMBLA's goals than I thought we were.

 

[Tulkas12]

There's more than one story on this subject. My God get ye America back into the 19th century where ye belong? Good job there are people who can apreciate art on an aesthetic level in the world, anyone who finds those drawings porn has a screw loose somewhere IMO.

EDIT Can't people who think art is porn go live in an isolotationist community and completely conceal there bodies with 19th century clothing, instead of forcing there antiquated opinions into the eyes of a world that doesn't care? Even the Amish would find this amusing if they had computers, or acces to the internet, which they may well do by now for all I know I fully realise that this is a minority opinion of prudes btw.

Interesting they appear to have web sites, I apologise to Amish communities everywhere it's an unfair comparrison, since some people appear to be even more antiquated.

Again, adults doind this is one thing, but these are underage kids. Good lord wth is wrong with you guys? How would you like it if I took your daughter and said, "Hey, there's this place where you can draw nude male models". How would you like a teacher doing that to your daughter. I'm sure many of you wouldn't care, no wonder this is all falling apart.

 

[Rambuchan]

Whoever is condemning this teacher, these teaching methods and these images knows nothing about art at all. Underage students or not, life drawing has more to do with observation of the body's engineering and design than sexuality. If you don't know that then you should quit commenting and meddling, like these school boards should.

Perhaps we should start sacking doctors and surgeons for being such perverts and stripping off their patients before they go to work on them?


I'm signing the petition, this is madness.

 

[Sidhe]

Again, adults doind this is one thing, but these are underage kids. Good lord wth is wrong with you guys? How would you like it if I took your daughter and said, "Hey, there's this place where you can draw nude male models". How would you like a teacher doing that to your daughter. I'm sure many of you wouldn't care, no wonder this is all falling apart.

This is pre university ie 16-18 right?

Having an age of consent at the age of 18 is antiquated IMO, I'm not sure these days that a child of 16 is that any more. In Europe all those people studying this course would be considered adults. What's the difference exactly between a 16 year old Englishman and a 16 year old American? Answer that and your question answers itself?

How would you like a teacher doing that to your daughter. I'm sure many of you wouldn't care, no wonder this is all falling apart.

I would be thrilled if my daughter(don't have one but in theory) Had the talent to attend an academy of art and since nude painting is an integral part of art and she is over the age of consent she would be free legally to do paintings of nudes. I think your asking the wrong country that quesiton here.

EDIT: you can marry have sex and star in pornographic movies, but and I repeat but, you cannot draw pictures of nude people, do you see how insane that sounds by any chance?

 

[Tulkas12]

Whoever is condemning this teacher, these teaching methods and these images knows nothing about art at all. Underage students or not, life drawing has more to do with observation of the body's engineering and design than sexuality. If you don't know that then you should quit commenting and meddling, like these school boards should.

Perhaps we should start sacking doctors and surgeons for being such perverts and stripping off their patients before they go to work on them?


I'm signing the petition, this is madness.

This is absurd. The comparison is one thing, and noting the engineeing of the human body can be done with a texbook at this age. Cadavours are done in med-school, not in high school. This guy should be fired.

 

[Tulkas12]

This is pre university ie 16-18 right?

Having an age of consent at the age of 18 is antiquated IMO, I'm not sure these days that a child of 16 is that any more. In Europe all those people studying this course would be considered adults. What's the difference exactly between a 16 year old Englishman and a 16 year old American? Answer that and your question answers itself?




I would be thrilled if my daughter(don't have one but in theory) Had the talent to attend an academy of art and since nude painting is an integral part of art and she is over the age of consent she would be free legally to do paintings of nudes. I think your asking the wrong country that quesiton here.

Immaturity is rampant in both of them, and its no so much them I'm worried about. I'm assuming that these kids are under the age of consent. Sixteen year olds are hardly capable of making very rational decisions in most cases.

 

[Sidhe]

Immaturity is rampant in both of them, and its no so much them I'm worried about. I'm assuming that these kids are under the age of consent. Sixteen year olds are hardly capable of making very rational decisions in most cases.

Nonsense, as I remember it I was perfectly capable of making responsible decisions as were all my friends? It appears my government agree as they allow us to have sex and get married. Not that getting married at 16 is a good idea necessarily, but I respect the right of anyone in my country to do so.

 

[Rambuchan]

This is absurd. The comparison is one thing, and noting the engineeing of the human body can be done with a texbook at this age. Cadavours are done in med-school, not in high school. This guy should be fired.

Oh, you're one of those people. One who not only knows nothing about what he is talking about but also - far worse - you want to impose your ignorance onto others.

Some questions for you:

- Have you had any kind of an art education whatsoever?
- Have you ever even been to an art gallery?
- Did you not notice the nudes in there if you did?
- Do you get turned on when you look at a Renaissance painting?
- Do you think Leonardo Da Vinci, Boticelli, Michelangelo and the rest should have studied the human body through text books in order to deliver the Sistine Chapel, the Birth of Venus etc?
- What's your problem with the human body, don't you have one?

 

[FriendlyFire]

Nothing wrong provided he used OLD and FAT figures as modles. Thou I would question the use of naked women especially hot women.

Yeah we had life drawing. So we got a nice mix nothing erotic, mildly exciting and mentally sitmulating. Yes we did have hot chicjs naked. Thou I was already was in taken at the time. Programming class now that was excitment.

 

[The Last Conformist]

American prudishness will apparently never cease to amaze me.