Live stream "The Tech Web: Midgame Choices" Thursday, Sept 18 at 2pm EST

[Khaim]

It's not that bad. You can arrange it so there's only a single "weird" line that doesn't naturally fit into the tree. Put Ecology at the top and Computing at the bottom, and the cross-connecting line links between tier1 and tier2, which is annoying but not terrible.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Certainly an interesting layer added to the bland tile improvement system from Civ V. Now I see why in earlier builds the terrascape had 9 energy maintenance. I wonder if the Ecoscaping virtue adds the bonuses to what it provides or to the tile yield...

In fact, if some improvements do really give benefits without being worked, we could see an actual shift from "food/pop" focused strategies towards an "improvement" or even "specialist" focused economy, CIV4 style!

 

[3of5]

I don't think researching back down will have many applications anyway. you're going to have all the T1 stem techs, either by researching them (2-3 turns in midgame) or by espionage (random tech stolen). They all do give quite useful and cheap buildings, units and other options. Since from one ring to the next required beakers rise by a factor of 4-8, reaching too far into the outlying techs is very expensive and brings extreme opportunity costs with it (unless those were free techs, as FI gets). Therefore having a Ring 3 Tech and reaching back into Ring 2 while not having the dirty cheap Ring 1 techs that also lead there is pretty unlikely anyway.

It would be nice though to know the mechanic, just outt of curiosity. I doubt that there are strategical applications for it.

 

[Leo Tang]

It's not that bad. You can arrange it so there's only a single "weird" line that doesn't naturally fit into the tree. Put Ecology at the top and Computing at the bottom, and the cross-connecting line links between tier1 and tier2, which is annoying but not terrible.

I tried to make that tree too and while you are right there is only one weird line, the resulting tree is not as intuitive as a web layout (Also really ugly). Especially for the links between same tier tech. A vertical bidirectional arrow between two tech is not something you expect to see in a tech tree that implies progression.

 

[gunnergoz]

"Linear" is not really the right term, but it's reasonable to think of it as a tree. It's just a very wide, very short tree. Whereas the Civ V tree is about 6 wide and 20 tall, the Civ:BE "tree" is 24 wide and 5 tall.

It would be useful to rearrange the tech web in tree form (I might try if I find time). Doing that would make it really obvious how the shape is different from the normal tech tree.

I can't imagine any "tree" that has "branches" that grow back into its "roots." There is a basic difference between a linear tree like Civ V's and a multi-directional web like BE has...they are as different as a straight line is from a circle.

 

[Browd]

Trees can be funny things. Banyan trees, for example, drop aerial (or adventitious) prop roots from their branches (supposedly the inspiration for the name of Banyan VINES).

 

[BrotherAriman]

I can't imagine any "tree" that has "branches" that grow back into its "roots." There is a basic difference between a linear tree like Civ V's and a multi-directional web like BE has...they are as different as a straight line is from a circle.

Behold the Banyan Tree that belonged to Thomas Edison in my hometown of Fort Myers.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I withhold judgment about Adept Blue's status as OP or a game-breaker until I've played the game a few times. I find it hard to believe that it would prove to be such in the face of what must be very intensive QA beta testing - which is surely still in progress.

Well, I consider myself a Firaxis fan and I (eventually) really enjoy their games, but past experience precludes me from giving them the benefit of doubt regarding polish and balance until the game is at least three months old. Sometimes imbalanced things get fixed after release (National Bank in Civ III, CS slingshot in IV and V, gunpower units from goody huts in the ancient era in V) , sometimes they never get fixed (Great Library before IV, Crawlers in SMAC , Praetorians in V) and sometimes patches even buff things into imbalance (inefficiency immunity for the Hive, Library construction bonus for creative leaders in Civ IV).

Despite my experience, I agree that Adept Blue at least (probably) isn't OP. Early stations usually give you four of something. Four culture, three food and one culture, two production and two science etc. A (as of now hypothetical) 4 science station doesn't compare too badly. It will give you 100 science over 25 turns (slightly more with modifiers from virtues and buildings) while AB may give you a tier 1 tech worth 80. You can research all tier 1 stems to get something more expensive, but letting that station dictate your early research path like that constrains your strategy and probably isn't worth it. There's also always a good chance that you'll get a very low priority tech. Furthermore the station never levels up while other stations will increase their yields and benefit from the Alternative Markets virtue and foreign and domestic routes also become more profitable over time with tech, buildings, virtues and growth. Finally, a route to AB will only give you something when it's finished. If the trade unit or the station is destroyed on turn 24/25 you get nothing. It's high risk and potentially high reward.

 

[SupremacyKing]

All I know is that if Adept Blue is anywhere near my faction, I am going to fight for it. I am not going to let another faction connect to it!

 

[gunnergoz]

OK so my analogy fails because of the &*^% banyan tree but my point stands about the difference between linear and potentially circular systems and a web allows for the latter while a linear system like Civ V does not.

 

[JokerJace]

All I know is that if Adept Blue is anywhere near my faction, I am going to fight for it. I am not going to let another faction connect to it!

Getting an ARBITRARY tech after 24 turns isn't better than some of the other bonuses. Especially considering how many potential techs you can have at a given point. Definitely not every one will be interesting to you. It's not like previous Civ games where tech is a consecutive progress.

 

[SupremacyKing]

Getting an ARBITRARY tech after 24 turns isn't better than some of the other bonuses. Especially considering how many potential techs you can have at a given point. Definitely not every one will be interesting to you. It's not like previous Civ games where tech is a consecutive progress.

I am not saying it is better. But I do think it is a good bonus to have. Why not try to get it?

 

[OldEarthRelic]

Getting an ARBITRARY tech after 24 turns isn't better than some of the other bonuses. Especially considering how many potential techs you can have at a given point. Definitely not every one will be interesting to you. It's not like previous Civ games where tech is a consecutive progress.

In a way I disagree with this. Even with the web the stems will be beneficial if only to shorten the route to the techs you want. And if you get a leaf, they're expensive and will probably have something helpful, even if you wouldn't make the investment yourself.

 

[gunnergoz]

The impact of Adept Blue in SP games probably is up to the individual player, but I suspect that MP gamers will be falling all over themselves to keep the other guy from getting their hands on it, no matter what.

 

[Lights]

For franco-iberia which station would be better, adept blue or a cultural one???

 

[gunnergoz]

For franco-iberia which station would be better, adept blue or a cultural one???

I would think that would depend upon whether you wanted to pile on the techs or pile on the virtues...either strategy has its advantages. If I get my hands on it, I will for sure try the free techs first but there is no question that grabbing a bunch of virtues can really add a lot of force multipliers to your army and boosts to your resource generation.

 

[thedrizzle02]

Getting an ARBITRARY tech after 24 turns isn't better than some of the other bonuses. Especially considering how many potential techs you can have at a given point. Definitely not every one will be interesting to you. It's not like previous Civ games where tech is a consecutive progress.

This seems completely false.... it seems so much better. If I research all of the first ring techs then I automatically get a t1leaf or t2 tech every 25 turns on top of my regular research, with the off chance that my research is wasted on a tech I get free from adept blue.

What other station gives a comparable bonus?? Maybe one of the military forts that give 2 combat rovers per trip?

I just worry that adept blue will allow you to get a t3 or even t3leaf tech way earlier than any other civ giving their trading partner a huge tech/affinity boost.

 

[AriochIV]

Which stations are in play is random -- even when you're offered a choice, it's only between two randomly selected options. There are a lot of stations, more than twenty at least, and so you can't count on Alpha Blue being one of them, any more than you can count on finding El Dorado as Spain. If stations were a Seeding choice, then people might always pick Alpha Blue, and that would be a problem... but stations are not a choice, so I don't see how some stations being better than others is any kind of gameplay problem.

Those who are seeking in Civilization a finely-balanced competitive multiplayer game (or a reliable, deterministic ruler to use in measuring their e-peens) are barking up the wrong tree to begin with.

 

[Aeson]

Getting an ARBITRARY tech after 24 turns isn't better than some of the other bonuses. Especially considering how many potential techs you can have at a given point. Definitely not every one will be interesting to you. It's not like previous Civ games where tech is a consecutive progress.

Statistically it is better. Some games it could be slightly worse than other stations. Some it could be MUCH MUCH better. The expected would be better than other stations.

The example we have so far is almost a tripling of Science output in the first 93 turns.

Almost all techs are useful, especially in the early game when you can viably go in several directions. If you get a tech that doesn't fit with what you were planning to do, it doesn't mean it's useless ... it just opens up other options you weren't considering.

Like with Computing in the livestream. Maybe he wasn't going for it, but now that he's got it it opens up early Espionage.

The problem with Adept Blue is the huge variation and the upper bound is just absurdly out-of-whack. Tripling a civ's science output just because they built a Trade Convoy is ridiculous cost:benefit, and isn't even the upper bound.

 

[Aeson]

Which stations are in play is random -- even when you're offered a choice, it's only between two randomly selected options. There are a lot of stations, more than twenty at least, and so you can't count on Alpha Blue being one of them, any more than you can count on finding El Dorado as Spain. If stations were a Seeding choice, then people might always pick Alpha Blue, and that would be a problem... but stations are not a choice, so I don't see how some stations being better than others is any kind of gameplay problem.

Those who are seeking in Civilization a finely-balanced competitive multiplayer game (or a reliable, deterministic ruler to use in measuring their e-peens) are barking up the wrong tree to begin with.

Making something with the potential to be wildly imbalanced rare and unpredictable doesn't make it any better. It actually makes it worse. At least if it was predictable comparing results wouldn't be affected as much.

There's a GOTM and HOF here on Civfanatics as well as PBEM and MP. They exist because Civ is a strategy game and is a platform which allows fun comparative/competitive environment. You can ruin that with too much randomness though.

Adept Blue is well into unreasonable territory and only serves to undermine the strategy aspect of the game. It doesn't add anything integral. So why not change it to something reasonable?