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LK151 - WM, where are we?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by LKendter, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    Summary:
    Our stray frigates are working toward the Bearings Straight. Once war with Babylon starts, we don't want anything to break the convoy flow.

    Our fleet in New Unlundi is repairing and waiting new frigate escorts. One is almost there, but it needs to repair. This set of galleons will be a good chunk of the support to reinforce America, so we need to safely get it back.
    I left one army with three units, and two empty. We have enough troops to take out the old world, so I want to start building up armies we can get to the new world without waiting for transports.

    I left some workers fortified so that Greebley has them in case we need rails in another spot. Charles Dexter Ward and Wilbur Whateley still need a lot of worker love.
    I left three armies unused. These are left so that Greebley can decide where to escort the combat settlers. A lot of my cities were moved one into the borders to open up attacks need turn.

    They city review is complete. I rushed a bunch of settlers to replace last turns builds, and there are a few more stray gaps behind the lines that may need another settler to clean up.
    The military still needs to be checked, as with the borders moving every turn there may be unneeded garrisons in the back lines.

    We are already showing 28.6% of total land.


    This is the remnants of Venezuela.
     
  2. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    ROSTER:
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    Greebley (up)
    Northern Pike (on deck) (skip 7/10 to 7/16, and 7/31 to 8/31)
    CommandoBob (just played)
     

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  3. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Ok, I have got it. I am aiming for finishing around the 16th
     
  4. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Is the plan to go after Russia next? Do we have deals with them? It looks like that would give us the shortest front. Or is the Sioux preferred?
     
  5. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    Fine work. :thumbsup: I'm glad you sent a task force to take out the Zulus.

    Since we're already at war with the Sioux, we might as well finish them off, and then hit the Russians.

    Greebley, I'll be back on the 16th, but I probably wouldn't start playing until the evening of the 17th. So if you'd like to keep the game for that extra bit of time, great.
     
  6. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    I was thinking the Sioux getting finished of. We can also start getting them off the shared islands.
    Once they are gone, I don't think the order matters for the rest of Europe / Africa. We just need to plan for the navy to do the Alaska shuffle afterwards. ;)

    I have two galleons in upper Siberia waiting to head toward those two start towns of Venezuela.
     
  7. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    I probably shouldn't have referred to finishing the Sioux off, when their cities are more widely dispersed than any civ's. But we should certainly take their five remaining towns in Africa before the Chinese get them.

    There are just enough turns left in the game that we'll benefit from building hospitals in our core cities, and then merging them up to 80 or 90 spt.
     
  8. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    That makes it sound like the African Sioux cities should be razed and replaced. I just hope all of the Africa cities are NOT as pillaged as the ones I could see.


    If we decide to do this, I am going to ask the Greebley continue the cash worker rush I was doing. I merged a decent chunk of natives on my set to get slow growing cities with productivity up to 12. That is why every city in Siberia with a food tile is building workers or settlers. Even some of our new cities grow fast with at least one good food tile, and they also got cash rushed workers.
    This is even more important once we head to the Sioux. I could see 50+ workers sucked up per city location getting them started.
     
  9. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Have played to 1220 AD. 1200 and 1210 was taking out the rest of the cities near us owned by Venezuela. They have an island which I landed on in 1220. and a city on the far side of Russia. I sent an army that way to work on taking it out if Russia can't but I am being blocked.

    In 1220, we took out the remaining 3 Sioux cities in Africa. China had taken in the turns it took me to get to them.

    I think we have alliance with both Russia which won't break until Venezuela is gone and one with China. I may be going after the Aztecs, but will also be taking out Sioux islands.

    I think we now have 4-5 cities with one turn Cavalry. Our capitol failed to do so on the first turn due to pollution.

    I will keep playing tomorrow
     
  10. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Preturn:
    I switch to Hospitals. This only takes cities away from troop building. Things like Workers are left untouched. I can rush workers. Assume it's been done for the preturn already.
    I attack Bochinche with left over armies killing a few Rifles.
    I also reinforced a city reachable by Cavalry with a single defender - actually use all the Conscript Bef's for border cities reachable even from Russian Lands by a Cavalry.
    Use the fortified Workers to improve our lands. Going above size 12 means even more lands need improving. The city Amy Pond still have jungle over a banana square - the city has only made it to size 2
    There is a set of 3 Sioux boats. I red-line all the Frigates and sink the Escorted Galleons and one Galley.
    There is one other set of Sioux boats but we can only bombard it as we have no Frigates, Cities on the Arabian Penisula rush Harbors, I am thinking of sending some after the Sioux supply of ships.
    IBT: Aztecs and Venezuella make peace. A Sioux city looks like it was captured by them.
    Russians capture Venezuella's city of New Coro.
    1200 AD: Finish off the last 4 Rifles in Bachinche and capture the city.
    San Cristobol is captured with speed 4 Cavalry Armies.
    Build a temp city to get within Knight Army range (if it wasn't temp then Succotash would Suffer.
    Kill off some Rifles in Cabruta with the Armies. Have trouble finding our Elite Cavalry. When I do it kills the Longbow without damage and gives us a leader for another Army while capturing the city.
    Fill 2 out of the 3 empty Armies with 3 units each.
    Move Cavalry Armies on the next two cities. For one, Artillery can reach next turn so we move some up for next turn bombardment as well.
    I probably went a bit overboard on the Workers, but I do plan to merge them.
    Brazillia gets a Police Station as its just short of Armies in 4 turns.
    IBT: Not much
    1210 AD: Bombard and capture Esnerakda without losing a hp.
    Our two Cav Arnues that moved up on Curiapo Capture it as well
    We capture their current capitol of New Caracas (a civ isn't doing well if their Capital starts with 'new')
    Venezuella has 4 cities left. 1 more near us on the main continent. 2 more on an islance we we can land on next turn and one on the far side of Russia that they haven't taken out.
    Esnerakda has to be abandoned and a new city settle or russia will likely get the one near us. We had another route but they blocked that way. We get close enough to bombard and take out the red-lined troops with Elite - no Armies or losses.
    2 Armies get on a boat to prepare for landing. I also send one Army deep into Russian lands to see if they can take out the last city.
    IBT: Nothing from or Enemies.
    1220 AD: In quick succession we capture Cree to the North, Dakota just to the South and then their capitol bear butte with Leo's workshop. That is all that remains of the Sioux in Africa.
    Do about 1/2 the worker actions when accidentally hit end of turn. Since I had done all the battles I planned, I kept the misclick and didn't reload.
    IBT: Russia takes out the last Venezuelan city on the continent.
    1230 AD:
    I also stole Espionage safely and start on the Intel Agency. I could build it in 2 but that is our Army city so instead its in 5 turns. I was initially planning on waiting until we get Corporation (and stealing it) from Babylon to start research but it occurs to me that there is a chance they are working on Ironclads or Electronics. Since we really do want transports or our size 4 Armies will be useless soon, I decide to go full research on Corporation. Its 9 turns but I may be able to better. I personally think full research would have been best and given us transports about the time we finished off the continent, but that is a personal preference. Keeping Armies at size 3 risks them, yet we are forced to do so since we haven't been researching them. In any case, I plan to keep new ones at size 3 for now.
    Note that the Intel Agency is also useful for planting a spy to see if there is a Settler out there.
    Our first Army captures the Venezuelan island city of New Barinas with little damage taken. The other army can reach the final city and kills a Rifle. Looks like Venezuela will fall next turn barring a settler.
    We got active alliances still going with China and Aztecs vs the Sioux for 6 more turns, so our best option is to wait a turn for Venezuela to go away and then Attack Russia.
    FInally, I MM for science. I think its worth bringing our Armies into play. I get it down to 6 turns. If we can grow fast enough and can keep it to 6 we can get Transports in 24 turns or a bit after we finish clearing the continent, I think.
    IBT: We lose two even fights with SIoux Frigates.
    1240: Easily capture the Venezuelan city:

    Make sure we are outside of Russian lands and cancel our ROP which is still active. I then declare war on them. Four cities are reachable with Artillery that I bombard.
    Our 3 available Elite Cavalry take red-lined Samarra. Our Veteran Cav take red-lined kursk, red-lined Staraya, and red-line Magaden are captured, with no losses, leaders or advancements to elite.
    Novgorod falls to our 3 move 3 (Knight) Armies and a Cavalry Army. We then Capture Kazan and Smolensk using Cavalry Armies.
    Finally I go for Yaroslavl and capture it with the remaining Cavalry Armies.
    The next step is to use our Artillery to bombard the Russian units between cities that were heading back from the war. I then wake our Bef's and our Bef cleverly disguised as a Carrot Eating Musketman (I can't comment on the carrot eating part as I don't have access to his dietary data, but Musketman part is clearly a fail as he looks like an Infantry, so I take back the 'cleverly' aspect of my previous statement. His friends must humor him).
    Actually, there is are so many enemies that most units get involved. I even hunt for fortified units all over the map to provide more protection for key points. Russia has enough units to break through somewhere if they throw everything at us...
    IBT: Well it is mostly successful as most units go around. Russia does attack one stack to get to another one with a few workers (3 I think) that he keeps. We lose some Conscripts (3 I think).
    We killed a few Cavalry on defense.
    We lost Ivory.
    1250 AD: We reget Ivory and gpt for Industrialization with indonesia. We trade some of our resources for Gems from Babylon.
    Babylon got Electronics. I was intending to see if the price for it was going down, but forgot.
    We have 4 turns left on Corporation and I think we will get it first.
    For the Russian, war most of Russia's units are to the far north in Finland because that is where the last Venezuelan city was. We will therefore take Europe first.
    3 Knight Armies take out Krasnoyarsk.
    By lucky chance Krasnoyarsk is close enough to Moscow that we can bombard it with Artillery first. Even more odd, there is only 1 Rifle in Moscow the rest are Pikes.
    One of the Elites has only 4 hp and goes for a defense 3 unit not in a city. It gets a leader for another Army. Plus we just built an Army in Brazillia.
    Using all Cavalry we take Moscow without loss. Kabarovsk to the south is captured.
    Vladivostok which is north Europe (Denmark) falls. It seems many cities have only 1 Rifle. Its a bit odd.
    We then Capture St. Petersburg (France). It didn't occur to me before, but Russia started fairly close to their normal starting position (somewhat west of it). I think they win the closest start award. I don't remember all the starts. Indonesia did fairly well starting in Australia, but no where as close as Russia.

    Verenozah which would be in Northern Italy near Venice, is captureed without loss a well. All the cities are defended weakly and not a Musket in sight. Rostov is close enough to Bombard so I can use a more injured Army to kill some of the units.
    Five Wheat Feat barely fails to be able to make 1 turn Cavalry. One I last checked our population percentage was 6% behind our area %. By growing it large (so it barely has 40 shields and won't grow) the population is 7.8 million which is just a bit short of 10 size 12 cities. Sure enough Population is now only 1% behind area. It is also close to twice as much science as our second best science city. Mostly though, I am just curious how big 5 wheat can make it. The answer is size 39, with 4 more population points possible, but that would make it less than 40 shields.
    We start cleaning up the Russian units. We have enough left over including an Army to Capture Novosibirsk.
    Accidentally shot Artillery from inside Kazan. SInce its a flip risk this turn, I abandon it and replace with one of ours to keep the Artillery from a flip (actually I believe the new city is also not free of risk, but its a lot less). The suggest name of Campo Grande become Taco Grande.
    I check out the Sioux city I landed next to and they have 2 Conscript Rifles and a Vet next to the city. I wonder how that happened. Did the normal Vet ones die? I don't think they usually move them. Arapaho is Captured.
    IBT: Made a mistake and Russia recaptures Smolensk. It was guarded by an MDI to end resistance. One direction just wasn't protected. Not really an issue as we can get it back fairly easily. It even lured out a bunch of their Cav type units.
    1255 AD:
    Capture back Smolensk. Bombard and Capture Murmansk. Tobolsk was alao red-line but we lose a Vet Cavalry anyway.
    We can also bomb Orenbug in Spain. Yetkaterinburg gets the same treatment. We use our Armies to grab Irkusk and then swing around to bombard and Capture the final city of Tver in Spain. The rest of the cities are all to the north in the Finland/Sweden Area, plus the Islands. I would like to take out all of Russia so we don't get flips. Keeping the cities will speed science.
    On Indonesian Island, we Capture Spokane from the Sioux after bombardment.
    We also capture Kiowa on another island nearby with our city of Erza Scarlet on it.
    Moved a Settler into Russian territory to push back the borders next turn near arkhangel'sk
    IBT: Vladivostok flips back losing the token conscript.
    1260 AD: Vladivostok is captured back. Build a city to cross the English Channel. Porto Vino, build two forests for the chops and rushed a Galleon. Russia has a city in Ireland and one in England.
    We build our city in Russsian lands and change Bele Horizonte to Bar Horizonte (Vino was something else too). Unlike last time the Drinking theme was accidental. I was going for the more obvious meaning.
    We kill a nearby red-lined Cossack with an Elite Bef and gain another leader/Army. Attacking arkhangel'sk with Cavalry we get another Elite. Capture the city and rename it Archangel isk.
    The cities up in the Tundra of Finland, et al. don't have border expansions for the most part which means we may be actually able to take them and not slog through forest.
    We build a city of Bah Hi (not actually needed to get close) and capture Ecatepec guarded only by Pikes. I chop forest as I go to complete a Temple.
    We bombard the one and only Pike in New Coro and then I use the Guerilla Army for a city capture. There was a non-forested tile. Coatepec also with no expansion is bombarded and captured without effort as they again only had the Pikes. The next city does require a city built to reach, but also is in grassland. Our armies also need to heal so I put 3 units in the new one.
    We capture Astrakhan which becomes Ash Tray Can
    Next is a City over a mountain. We can reach with Artillery to red-line both Pikes which is nice as it allows us to attack with 8 and 6 hp Armies with relative safety. Now Russia's last city is the same as Venezuela's last city on the Continent. We are close enough to Bombard and can thus capture. Armies didn't get to rest but Russia is off the Continent so they can rest next 1-2 turns. I was planning on leaving the next war to the next player anyway, as Africa can get messy for the front and is harder to take over from someone else.
    I will be trying to finish off as much as Russia as I can. We have to hit a city in Ireland, England, and Northern Greenland, plus they own iceland with 2 Cities.
    Getting ships out of Vladavostok and Yekaterinburg would be nice but they are in resistance. SO I have 3 options.
    1) Replace the towns
    2) Squeeze in our towns between.
    3) Plant and cut down forests.
    4) Cull the large number of Artillery and/or draft conscripts for 20/22 shields.
    5) Cull the Catapults and Trebuckets we got from Russia for shields.
    2,3,5 - require the least sacrifice so I go for those to build my fleet, though we have so many artillery, we can easily spare some.
    Yekatarinburg works out nearly perfectly. 3 forest chops, 2 Trebucket, and a Catapult gives exactly 50 shields (technically we only needed 49). The other is optimal. 3 forest, Cannon, Treb, and Slave.
    Looks like we will have 2 Frigate, and 4 Galleon with 4 normal rushes possible the turn after which is plenty.
    IBT: We get the Intel Agency.
    1265 AD: Continue to move on the Sioux. We have 2 Landings on islands and we continue down Indonesia toward their current capital. We still won't be taking them out soon but will eventually. I realize we also need to go toward Madagascar.
    I rush the boats for that for next turn. It won't have an Army.
    Attempt to plant a spy with Russia but it fails and Angers her.
    Well Babylon got Corporation this turn. That is very fast research. It lessens the need to research ourselves. Usually the AI tends majorly stall when hitting the industrial times - it shows that they are quite powerful in infrastructure at least.. Not that the MM hurts us - it was just time consuming. Our research did lower the price a bit:

    For the next tech I want to try to guess which tech they will go for and research the other one which will get us transports faster (if we pick the same our research is just lowering the price). Refining has a resource so Steel is better odds. It will take 7 turns to get, it may be worth trying to lower that to 6 by MM and town improvements. I THINK the AI is limited by the 4 turn minimum so if they go for refining first, we will win the race to Steel. I am not sure if Babylon is doing techs in 4 turns, but It very well might be close. They got Corporation pretty quick.
    We have boats this turn but the Armies aren't ready and need to heal. I will wait a turn on sending over troops to England.
    Helena and Claudia Donovan are both close to 80 shields so they are building Police stations. they can also have Policemen if they have extra population (or just mine more squares if there are some to mine). Those cities that can't reach 80 shields are the ones building Bef's.
    Without war we have nearly 250 bored workers after I finish the MM of the towns with new Hospitals. I use these to MM for science and have about 30 left when Steel goes to 6 turns.
    I then provide a bit of a buffer science so it stays at 6.
    I filled in some better land we weren't using. Our settler count is down so I rush some instead of just waiting for them.
    IBT: Yaroslavl decides to flip. All cities that still have resistors have a conscript unit in them. Ones without resistance are empty. The plan is to simply capture them back for the 5-10 turns it will take to eliminate Russia.
    The Police Station and a Police man gets Claudia Donovan to 80+ shields.
    While scanning for the next turn I spot a piece of coastline so wide open that the Sioux have been able to plant a city wihout us noticing the units.
    1270 AD: My last turn of the set. We are ready for the next war in any case with most of our Armies healed.
    I use a Cavalry Army to take out the Sioux city I mentioned above and plant our own (pretty useless) city to fil the hole.
    Getting both Claudia Donovan and Helena G. Wells to 80 shields requires a lot of finagling, but is doable with the Police Stations. It unbalances Five Wheat Feat that has to give up a square to do it (it is now growing). When it does grow it can't feed itself so either build a Worker or draft a Conscript. FWF is a size point smaller as well.
    For the Sioux invasion, we kill one unit in Osage and then need to heal. Our capture of Kensa on Indonesia goes well. In Oto there are more Rifles that I expect. I think I finally drove it down to 1 but there is noone to take it out.
    Bear Butte has been building a Worker each turn using forests to bring it down in size. It had a decent world wonder (Leo's) though we don't have much current use other than upgrading capture units. In any case it was big and the capitol and will be size 1 next turn and mostly safe (totally save with 2-3 units). Cree will also become size 1 which leaves only Dakota of our Sioux possessions that need to be smallened.
    Three core cities I missed before and really need mines. A general search for cities with huge food surplus will likely be the last way I use the workers.
    Notes:
    A war can be started in the preturn if desired. All units are fortified near the capitol - just use the h (home) key to go to them. Almost no units have been used and are located there. I used up all but fifty of our Foreign workers and our Native Workers this turn. They are for the war. If we don't attack, then we still had some improving to do. I previously missed cities that had too much food and fixed three already. Cities like 'Artie Nelson' and 'It be Salty' are still way positive on the food.
    I did go through the cities this time to optimize them. I spent more time than usual optimizing so we could run good science. If we get Steel and Babylon gets Refining we could have transports soon. I would keep the high science rate (until we have transports) because it reduces the price of techs to small and is cheaper than buying them. There is a better than 50/50 chance we will get transports not long after clearing out our continent - if we can do a steel for Refining type trade.
    We have done well with NP's plan of getting cities to 80 shields. Our top production is a 4-turn Army, six 1-turn Cavalry, four 2-turn Bef. Note that we have many needed buildings but zero Stock Exchanges.
    I only tried to plant one Spy - that was with Russia when got the Intel agency. I didn't feel like I wanted to start a random war. It just occurred to me we should try the Sioux. We should also try planting a spy with whomever we are going to declare war against. If it works we have troop counts. If it fails the AI is more likely to declare war when we 'winning' and we get War Happiness if they do.
    There is a run to take out the SIoux Madagascar. If it left next turn it would be 8 artillery and 4 Bef, which I think is enough.
    The attack on Oto is a bit complex. We killed lots of their units but they will likely have at least 2 Rifles. It occured to me that we could bombard the city from the Indonesia so I was placing rails to use the Kansa Artillery on Oto. Red-line I think our units could take the city.
    After taking out Oto, I would use the troops to go help Osage. The Army there needs to heal after killing a Rifle. I would have both groups proced together to take out the hard to reach Sioux islands.
    There is also the Russian attack force which just start by landing in England. I initially forgot to bring settlers so I loaded 4 (one for each island, but there are 5 cities) onto the boats. They don't have to be used as Russia will soon be dead however. If you keep the 4 settlers, then 4 units can be left behind (defender) in England and Russia, or you can drop off the settlers if keeping the cities. I did not bring workers, but they can still be put on the boats (but boot of someone else). Another rushed Galleon or two could bring workers after.
    As for the home continent, we lose less money if we attack the Azteces. Another way to decide is to try to plant a spy with the Aztecs. If its war you stop, if it succeeds try then try China. If either leads to war you are decided. If neither then you could have info on both future enemies (failing to plant a spy but not getting war is the worst result).
     
  11. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    I have tried to keep up the building of Workers as the city improvements have been draining on their numbers. I always had enough with the round where I was planting forests to hurry Ship building after railing across Scandinavia, the one turn where I pretty much used them all. The number may be less than usual however as I usually don't MM the effectiveness of our towns as much as this round.
    In any case, I would keep building them. Usually we have so many its ridiculous trying to find things for them to do, but that may not be true this game.

    On the other hand our cities are much more efficient than other games both in production and science.
     
  12. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    I find it interest to have another round off high MM worker use. I suspect a lot of that was because of hospitals.

    Glad to see more enemies got beat up hard.

    ROSTER:
    LKendter
    Greebley (just played)
    Northern Pike (up) (skip 7/10 to 7/16, and 7/31 to 8/31)
    CommandoBob (on deck)
     
  13. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    I think it was both the fact that we got Hospitals earlier in the game than usual - probably due to Babylons impressive research speed and also city placement.

    We did not use an Always War type placement where each city gets 12 squares. During my turn I though it ironic that we had a seven square forest adjacent to our Capitol ( I was noticing while playing and thinking our Civ must really love nature very much to dedicate such prime real estate to forext).

    Here is a picture of our current core if anyone is interested:

     
  14. Ray2

    Ray2 Chieftain

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    lurker's comment: :eek: A Size 38 core city? :eek: Very rare for a non AI city.

    :)drool: at razing that one :mischief: )

     
  15. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    A 38 size city building a granary. Sure looks AI to me :):):)
     
  16. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Not sure if the reason 'why a granary' is obvious. Before it had a constant population so no need of a Granary. Now that it is growing it is likely to hit size 39. Without a granary, if unwatched it immediately starves losing a guy. With a granary it has half full food, and so you can draft or build a worker within 20 turns and you start growing again.
     
  17. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    A formidable attacking round. :thumbsup:

    I've got it. Greebley, thanks for the ideal timing, from my point of view. :cool:
     
  18. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    Apart from an island that's giving us trouble (with no empty tile where we can land), we've conquered the Aztec lands. I hope to take the remainder of Africa from the Chinese and post in about a week.
     
  19. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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  20. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    1270 (1): Very precise MM of our core for shields. :goodjob:

    I won't try to eliminate the Sioux--it's a pointless diversion of resources when they have islands all over the Pacific, and we aren't trying for the conquest victory. We will advance towards the RussiansÂ’ last five towns, since we're holding so many of their cities.

    It's a close decision whether we should attack the Aztecs or the Chinese next. (For the lurkers, both these civs are in RL Africa.) I choose the Aztecs, since we're receiving less gpt from them and a clean kill looks possible--they have two island cities, but they're just off the coast.

    The Aztecs have an RoP with China, increasing the amount of border we'll have to defend in Africa, but no inconvenient MPP's. We're strong relative to them.

    We successfully plant a spy with the Aztecs (102 gold), and aren't much impressed with their military--43 cav, nothing else of note. They do have four settlers and two galleons, so a houseboat problem is possible.

    We also plant a spy with the Sioux, according to Greebley's suggestion (68 gold). They have almost no army left, of course, but do have two settlers and three galleons.

    We only have enough uncommitted workers to rail thirteen tiles this turn, but the Aztec cities nearest to our starting point at Henery Hawk are tightly packed, so we should be able to do some damage:
     

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