LK74 - Sid, Civ = TDB

[LKendter]

There's a settler heading west from Delhi. I sort of like him right where he is, next to the river.

Please find my dot map from before. This city completely fouls up my dot map plan. I had explained in the post why I *don't* want the city there.

Danz,

I can accept people not agreeing with the dot-map. However, if you have issues please discuss them before making your turn.

Lee

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I disagree with working the forest in Bangalore. We need bigger cities not more shields at the moment. I would not have switched Bangalore from the worker it had been building before.

I agree 100% with Greebley. We need workers before we need the temple. Temples in cities with out roads is going to kill our economy.

Working the forest was a mistake - period. We are in the grow cities phase of the game.

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Madras is the wrong city to build the ship it. The ship should be built in Bangalore. Hotrod, please move the ship build to Bangalore. They mystery land area is on that side.

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I can't figure out how Bombay needs 17 turns to grow. I can't load the game right now - something with loading the game kills my dial-up connection. However, this looks really screwed up.

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Danz,

We are in the city expansion phase. Can you let me understand why you totally stopped expansion in favor of the temples? This move could cost us a couple of city spots, and right now cities are all that matter.

Lee

 

[danz]

Some commments and a picture:

I think it a bit early to be building temples in all our cities. We have other more pressing needs.

You're right, how about we only built a temple in Delhi and Bomay, which had a shield surplus? Other cities need granaries more than temples, except for maybe Madras, which is likely to see some cultural pressure from the Hittites soon.

I disagree with working the forest in Bangalore. We need bigger cities not more shields at the moment. I would not have switched Bangalore from the worker it had been building before.

Maybe a granary would be better. We are food constrained on this map. A worker should come from a more food-rich town, perhaps Delhi or Bombay, after it builds a temple.

If Delhi is too small, I would prefer a granary rather than a temple.

Delhi already had a granary, that's why it's the only city with decent growth. I would love to see it become a worker/settler farm if we can stabilize its population at a minimum of 2-3 citizens. Less than that and we won't be working our most productive tiles.

I'd also love to bring those exploring warriors back. They're already made all the contacts available to them, and now they're just annoying our neighbors. We need them for MP duty so we can save some tax money.

Another thing that scares me is the Hittites. If they declare war on us and start bringing the three-man chariots, we're toast. We have to keep them happy. Maybe a GPT<->G deal would help, even if it earns us negative interest? I almost made one but they only had 4G on hand, which seemed too much of a ripoff.

 

[danz]

Please find my dot map from before. This city completely fouls up my dot map plan. I had explained in the post why I *don't* want the city there.

Whoa, I didn't build any cities, just sent a settler out West. The next player gets to build a city. No need to get upset...

I agree 100% with Greebley. We need workers before we need the temple. Temples in cities with out roads is going to kill our economy.

By the time anything is built (barracks, temple, or granary) we'll have roads. And we can't build workers in cities with a growth rate of 1-2 FPT. It takes too long.

Madras is the wrong city to build the ship it. The ship should be built in Bangalore. Hotrod, please move the ship build to Bangalore. They mystery land area is on that side.

Madras had just the right number of shields for it. Not enought or a building, too many for a settler or worker given its slow growth. Bangalore is in the same boat, so to speak. They both need to grow before they can become useful.

I can't figure out how Bombay needs 17 turns to grow. I can't load the game right now - something with loading the game kills my dial-up connection. However, this looks really screwed up.

We have very little food availale. The best tiles are forest-next-to-river.

We are in the city expansion phase. Can you let me understand why you totally stopped expansion in favor of the temples? This move could cost us a couple of city spots, and right now cities are all that matter.

Delhi should grow a little, then resume with settler and worker production. The rest of our cities have too little food to be useful as settler/worker farms. Bangalore was hrowing from 1->2 and producing a settler every 10th turn, keeping it at 1SPT/1GPT for the foreseeable future. This is terrible. It will do a lot better if a worker could come down from Delhi or some other city. You can't squeeze water out of a rock.

 

[danz]

p.s. the wheat out West has the best food potential in our territory... I urge you to reconsider the dot map so that we can claim it ASAP.

 

[LKendter]

Delhi already had a granary, that's why it's the only city with decent growth. I would love to see it become a worker/settler farm if we can stabilize its population at a minimum of 2-3 citizens. Less than that and we won't be working our most productive tiles.

Delhi isn't plus 5 food. It will never be a worker / settler farm. The deer at 3 food gives it some help, but it lacks enough food to really push the workers and settlers out. I agree larger would help, but I would rather build a couple of warriors just to avoid empty cities.

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By the time anything is built (barracks, temple, or granary) we'll have roads. And we can't build workers in cities with a growth rate of 1-2 FPT. It takes too long.

We need Delhi on 100% settler to try and claim enough land. To accomplish that goal we need to skim a few workers from other cities. I agree that a worker Bangalore isn't the best from the food perspective, but we can't afford to have Delhi or Bombay build them as it could cost us a city site.

Hotrod, can you please put Bangalore back on the worker since Danz only played 5 turns. Please do so - we need to improve our lands.

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I now understand how Bombay is 17 turns to grow. The #1 priority of grow your cities was bypassed in favor of shields.

Hotrod0823, if you switch Bombay from forest to the deer grassland you can get growth in 6 and settler in 6. We need cities - period. This will speed up the process of grabbing the land near us. The other choice is a granary. Either way the city needs growth above all.

Please play 15 turns to get the game back in sync with turns ending in 0 is what is passed to the next player.

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p.s. the wheat out West has the best food potential in our territory... I urge you to reconsider the dot map so that we can claim it ASAP.

Actually, the grassland deer by Bombay is just as good with irrigation.

Trying to fit the northern wheat is means trying to get at least one more city up north. The odds are already against use claiming the cities planned out. I am more concerned with shear territory size at this point for the potential future resources.

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Danz,

Why did you play just 5 turns?

Lee

 

[akots]

No empty cities please, Sid AI just loves to attack you if you have even one. If we want to keep Hittites out, at least having a warrior in each city is a must IMHO. And having a gpt deal with them might really save us. We can gift them 1gpt atm.

@LK: IMvHO, your dot map calls for very spacious build. It might be better to have slightly more dense city placement. However, considering the landgrabbing phase and few food bonuses hence difficulty in producing settlers, it might be OK. Though, if we can squeeze in some extra cities later on just for unit support, that would be really helpful as well as couple of fishermen villages for cash flow.

 

[LKendter]

@LK: IMvHO, your dot map calls for very spacious build. It might be better to have slightly more dense city placement. However, considering the landgrabbing phase and few food bonuses hence difficulty in producing settlers, it might be OK. Though, if we can squeeze in some extra cities later on just for unit support, that would be really helpful as well as couple of fishermen villages for cash flow.

I think your one comment sums it up - few food bonuses hence difficulty in producing settlers . I am trying to grab the most land with the fewest settlers. We already lost yellow dot and potential resouces.

Even the jungle area could prove important with coal or rubber.

I am trying to maximize our land with minimal cities. I just hope we don't lose to many spots.

 

[danz]

No empty cities please, Sid AI just loves to attack you if you have even one. If we want to keep Hittites out, at least having a warrior in each city is a must IMHO.

I was thinking the same thing, but the two free warriors might be necesary to stop a settler going for our lands. Maybe the cities that have too many shields to produce workers/settlers can fill in. Except we also badly need granaries and just about everything else

And having a gpt deal with them might really save us. We can gift them 1gpt atm.

Cheap compared to a war, you're right, I should have signed up 4G for 1 GPT

@LK: IMvHO, your dot map calls for very spacious build. It might be better to have slightly more dense city placement. However, considering the landgrabbing phase and few food bonuses hence difficulty in producing settlers, it might be OK. Though, if we can squeeze in some extra cities later on just for unit support, that would be really helpful as well as couple of fishermen villages for cash flow.

Amen, that's why I was eyeing the wheat, thinking we can always fill in later... of course, if the AI build in the middle of our turf and we have no culture, it will be our cities that flip, not theirs

Why 5 turns? I was under the impresion we were playing 5 turns, but I probably confused the rules with another SG. Sorry about that. Although I'm sure the next player won't mind playing an extra 5

 

[Greebley]

Warriors in cities:
I actually think that SID difficulty is where it is least important to guard your cities in the early game. I think it was Betazed who showed that a game without any offensive units is easier when playing diety than at any easier difficulty. The reason was essentially that the AI likes to attack when it is smaller, but has more units. At SID you are too insignificant to be a threat. I still put warriors in cities, but it is quite possible that it is entirely unnecessary this early in the game. We will be building warrior anyway, but I think they should never take precedence over other things.

To get the most land we should never slow down city growth in terms of food - the only exception being when completing a granary (sometimes you get more food by slowing growth). The more I play at the higher levels, the more I become convinced of this. The only tricky bit is if/when to build a granary. My personal opinion in this game is that we should go for granaries right away in our first two towns because we can block off AI settlers and so we have a bit more time as they need boats.

I am in favor of switching Bombay to a granary - it is a very tough call on whether to do that or build a settler in 6 turns though.

I also favor the more spread out dot map that Lee has chosen for the reason he mentioned.

Akots - if you have a counter example to my statement above (about not needing warriors in the early game), I would be interested in seeing/knowing it. I have not yet seen the AI attack the human player early in SID just to grab an empty town myself, nor do not feel secure that I know all the reasons the AI will attack - I think I can say that if they will it is rare.

 

[hotrod0823]

1625 BC (0): Well hello SiD! We have such a nice piece of land to grab from I can't believe we will be able to get a great land grab without much AI interference. With that in mind I think a settler out of Bombay is a must and a 6/6 is all we can ask for. Also, change the curragh in Madras to a temple, move the curragh to Banglore over workers for the time being. I want to get to the southern land mass ASAP. Settler in the West will continue to the pink dot. With no 2-fers available I will not buy anything just yet. We can afford bronze but then we are cash poor. On the other hand do we really want all that gold hanging around incase of demands? I want to see what is south before I make the decision, hopefully they will leave us alone for the time being.

1600 BC (1): Spot a red border to the north of the X-man. NO new contacts yet. Continueing the irrigation trail to the grass game. Drop lux to 0% for now. Hope the silks are on line soon. WTH, why is the settler in Bombay now only due in 2 turns. I can't figure out what happened. Change it to a temple. Did a forest chop just end? Did I miss something? Can't build a settler here yet.

Oh nearest I can tell is that the road completed and magically we gain a shield from reduced corruption. Well less corruption is a good thing but unfortunately it came at a bad time.

1575 BC (2): Contact with Bzantines. Ofcourse no 2frs but our cost have dropped. Upon furth review and extra shields swap Bombay to a granary. The Hiitties our closest neighbor will get our gold anyway if they ask for it so may as well get something for it now that our prices have dropped. I send 110 gold and 2gpt to the Hittites for Bronze, we need spears sooner or later. Iron working will cost all our gold and gpt. No other deals as I don't want to be totally broke. We can buy IW and I am tempted to see where the iron is exactly. Lux to 10% to avoid riots in Delhi.

1550 BC (3): Build Calcutta at the pink dot start on a warrior.

1525 BC (4): Wow a whole turn without a crash. Sorry had to put this in here. I just had to uninstal XP SP2 to get this game to run. We hit that 100 gold threshold again but I want to save this time as the curragh is due next turn.

1500 BC (5): Bangalore gets a curragh and starts on a much needed worker, sorry for the delay but felt that the curragh was a priority. Well we are wasting a few shields in Delhi so I opt for a taxman and lowering the lux to make the most of it. Still get a settler next turn with growth and less waste. IW and WC are still too steep for my tastes, just hope no one comes asking for donations.

1475 BC (6): [dance] Silks are online now we can get on with some real improvements. Delhi completed a settler, will try to sneek in a warrior before the next settler. Tax man in Banglore to keep Bangalore happy. needs some MPs.

1450 BC (7): Settler is heading West to Sugar spot. Not much else. Change Calcutta to a worker. It is apparent that we need workers ASAP. I hope the curragh was worth it. Not so sure it was worth delaying a much needed worker. Well rather then just give my gold away I buy IW from teh Inca for 120 and 7gpt. We are happy to know that the iron is right outside of calcutta. Okay now I am normally going to pass this up but is that really 2 workers availble from the Hittites. The aren't cheap and may be a problem if I buy them but how could I not. Man it will strap us down for a long time 9gpt is too steep. Ouch now I wish I didn't make the iron deal first, yuck.

1425 BC (8): Delhi builds a warrior starts a settler. Madras builds a temple starts a worker. Inca completed MoM. MM Delhi for shields.

1400 BC (9): Settler is almost to the site. Followed by a warrior from Delhi. More worker actions Bombay is ready to pop now with the irrigated game. All we need is the granary to complete.

1375 BC (10): Settler is in place. Exploring the southern land mass.

1350 BC (11): Found Lahore at the sugar start a Baracks, we need some vet units and may was well be from here. Not very shield rich but then again none of our cities are and the others are all set on settlers or worker to help expansion not protection.

1325 BC (12): Well I guess Persia is in the Middle ages and got Feudalism, they started SunTzu. Looks like the land is just a small island .

1300 BC (13): The Hittites approach with a settler/warrior pair. Madras expands just in time. Calcutta builds worker starts a warrior. Byzantines build HG and start on Sun. Okay now I am not positive but I think we get the settler next turn. We will grow with 3 food, and have 5 shields, now the extra citizen should work the forest giving 2 more shields and the settler. That is ofcourse only if we don't get hit by corruption then all bets are off and we wasted many shields. Lux to 20% to keep Bombay happy.

1275 BC (14): Yes!!! Delhi gets a settler. Playing that Spain GOTM paid off. Anyway, start a warrior. Bombay gets a granary starts a settler. Great wall is completed by Mayans, Byza... start Statue of Zues. Settler is heading south to orange dot and will allow Bombay settlers to focus on the North White dot. Okay I am not passing up this opportunity. Buy an Incan worker from the Inca for 60gold and 4 gpt. Steep yes but IMO needed.

1250 BC (15): Madras gets a worker starts a barracks but I think maybe a curragh is in order to see what lies to the East. Obviously can be changed. Settler is heading south to the orange dot. The slave is out to connect Banglore and a new worker from Banglore is due next turn. Really need more MPs but not sure from where. Tech hole is deep and I may have blown it with the slave purchase but we have deals with the inca expiring in 13 turns that gives us 7gpt back. Maybe iron over WC was a mistake but I think knowing where the iron is is more important than archers. Same goes for the slave vs the Tech. We need workers now, archers not so much.

 

[hotrod0823]

Well so far the expansion looks good. Not sure what the next step is. Good luck.

Hotrod

 

[LKendter]

Tech hole is deep and I may have blown it with the slave purchase but we have deals with the inca expiring in 13 turns that gives us 7gpt back.

2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.

I think I need to check when the 50th turn occurs.

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Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Danz
Hotrod0823
Akots (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

 

[Greebley]

The 50th turn is 1750 BC so we are fine (I remember that 1000 BC is turn 80(81) from the GOTM QSC and subrtact 30)

 

[danz]

Nice plays, Hotrod. I'm starting to like the looks of our little empire. Delhi has a first ring of cities around it, Madras has a chance to survive a Hittite border push, and we have some slaves helping to connect the dots. It's a little scary how much debt we're carrying relative to how little we have to show for it. We're living off credit cards, so to speak but you made the right call. We are the last to learn, so these techs are not going to get any cheaper. Plus we do need to know where the iron is. One thing we might want to consider is to minimize trades with the Hittites for fear of making them even stronger. I'm especially scared of big GPT deals, because they pump up their research pace. On the other hand, they are less likely to blitz us if we owe them some money. It's a tough call!

 

[Greebley]

A good turn Hotrod. I think choosing Iron Working was correct. I don't much reason to build archers anyway. I would rather continue the farmers gambit and then build swords.

Has the AI tried to send Settlers up to the north yet?

 

[hotrod0823]

I think I need to check when the 50th turn occurs.

I saw your reaction coming. FWIW there were 7 Inca workers available and the Hittites had 2 Inca workers availble the previous opportunity.

Don't think we are in any danger of crippling and honestly I think we are very close to 50 turns. You played ~30, greebly 10, danz 5 and my 15 make it close to 50. Also, considering the number of workers the Sid AI get I don't think 1 at those prices will be crippling. Actually it can be argued that the extra gold they are getting is more helpful to him in the short term. Well maybe that is a stretch.

As far as the settling the Hittites are very active to the SW of Madras and may have actually just settled in that vacinity. I haven't seen any "new" settlements but with the advent of Maps Making I think we will see some activity to the NW and possibly to the SW. Even with that I think we can get a few more cities in along with more workers. Now that Bombay has a granary and the irrigated game it is a strong growing pseudo settler/worker factory. BTW Delhi can produced settlers rather quickly with some creative MM. Got it to work on my turns but it is not a straight forward factory condition.

Hotrod

 

[LKendter]

FWIW there were 7 Inca workers available

This is the type of news you should report. This tells me someone is at war with the Inca!

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I suspect the settler flood to our lands isn't to far away. We should make the 3 northern does the priority as I don't want any cities to close to our iron. Plus the extra horses may prove tradable. You know the AI will rush to the horse source!

The orange dot in the south now overlaps the AI. Don't build in that locaiton.

 

[akots]

Dowloaded the save, will try to play today. It is all more or less clear IMO.

 

[Greebley]

There is one other thing that I feel is important in SID. This has come from bad experiences in SID games I have tried.

Only connect up ONE of each resource and luxury. The reason is that in more than one SID game the AI has demanded the extra lux. If one gives in then there is high risk to ruining ones reputation which makes SID much harder - I think it has happened more than once in not that many civ games. If one refuses, then one is at war with a civ that has a large number of units and diverts resources away from growth

This catch-22 can really hurt. It is easier to simply wait until you are ready to want to trade resources before connecting them up.

Alternatively you can simply not make a trade route with any other civs, but this means we can't build harbors. That strategy would actually be feasable in our current setup, but more tricky. The AI can plant cities build a harbor in the north.

In any case, I highly advise doing one of the two. A broken rep seems very common in the SID games I have tried.

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BTW, we should decide on a policy of giving into demands. A lot of ppl like to refuse for far away civs, but this has a very real risk of a dog pile in SID. I think we should always give in to demands. What do others think?

 

[LKendter]

BTW, we should decide on a policy of giving into demands. A lot of ppl like to refuse for far away civs, but this has a very real risk of a dog pile in SID. I think we should always give in to demands. What do others think?

I always cave early. Go look at the first Babylon 100K game and the whole world against us dogpile to see why. I don't refuse until I have a decent military.