LK76 - AWE - Pangea, No armies, Random Civ

[Greebley]

I think the Mongols are a good idea. The only other town I might consider is Umma. I drew a map of a possible attack plan.

You place a town and bombard Umma with Artillery (this plan will be better with more artillery). Then take Umma and place a second town to move to the white border. The cities have hills between them and enemy which means the enemy cannot attack us on offense with tanks but do get the hill bonus (so we may want attack them after they retreat?) I kind of like the hills for a wall of defense though.

One advantage is that it takes away a saltpeter from the Sumeria. Not sure if that is important (it may only be so if they manage to get horses).

It needs to wait for 9 turns so there is no gap in the border between our current location and Umma, and may also have to wait for more artillery.

 

[Zwingli]

It will be quite a project, but taking out Umma would definitely improve our defensive position. It has the added bonus of keeping Sumerian bombers further from the key rail links.

It would greatly help out on border defense to build temples in Sidon and Gordium after walls. To do this, we can irrigate the area (under infantry protection) and hire more civil engineers.

Note: Taking a closer look at the culture graph, it looks like Babylon is mobilized. This means that they probably won't be a threat for UN, but accounts for the massive number of troops they have been sending recently.

 

[hotrod0823]

Working on it but had to stop after 2 tonight. Not feeling well at all

 

[hotrod0823]

1650 AD (0): A little MM for scientists shaves 1 turn off of corporation. I am tempted to turn off science entirely and get some gold to upgrade a few cannons to artillery. Without much else to do and unfortuately no elites to hit the wounded guerilla and knight I press space bar.

IBNT: Lots of AI movement, appears that only Babylon has rubber. Kill 1 Sumerian Rifle in defense. Not a few bombings on the coast and a couple units landed behind the lines. Need to be wary of Marines and empty towns later.

1655 AD (1): Gordium builds walls starts a temple. Bomb and kill a Bab Infantry and Guerilla near Sidon. Kill a redlined rifle outside of Zwolle. Lose a vet cav to a redlined rifle outside of Salt and silk. Take him out with an elite but no leader. Wound various other rifles/infantry and guerillas.

INBT: Various bombings by Aztecs. Aztec Cavs come out of the Fog and nearly take Gouda but our Swiss merc takes him out. Kill a Bab infantry in defence.

1660 AD (2): Amsterdam builds an infantry. Oh I wish all our towns had factories. Middleburg riots . Scoll ahead to avoid other mishaps. Enschede builds walls starts a temple. Kill 2 sumarians behind the lines but lose another healthy vet cav in the process to a redlined rifle. We are low on cavs again . Kill 2 redlined rifles behind the lines and promote 1 infantry to elite. Kill 1 redlined Aztec rifle and an aztec Cav. Wound a huge stack of Bab units outside of Bactra.

INBT: A lot of movement but no real action. Sumeria lands 5 units behind the lines.

1665 AD (3): Kill 2 Bab rifles. An 2 elite cavs takes out a 2 redlined Bab infantry. Fish with an elite infantry and get a leader. Change Rotterdam to a factory and rush it. Kill 2 more infantry outside of Bactra but can't take out the behind the lines sumerian stack. Lost a cav to another rifle.

INBT: Lose 3 Swiss mercs to 2 aztec cavs and a Mongol Keshik. Babs were kind enough to take the wounded home.

1670 AD (4): Amsterdam builds an infantry starts another. Rotterdam factory starts on courthouse. 5 elite victories in a row and now leaders. Lose another elite cav to a redlined rifle outside of Gordium. A vet steps in and makes the death blow. Sidon my be in trouble, just not enough units around to protect it and deal with the intruders in the core cities.

INBt: As expected Sidon is now a Mongol town. Not sure if I could've stopped it or not. Way too many babs units are approaching and the Sumarians are coming in from the back way again. Catch Gilgamesh planting a spy.

1675 AD (5): Bombing and hoping the few large stack will just turn and go away. Kill random Aztec and Mongol units that snuck in behind the lines. There are cavs available to move but no ducks to pluck off. Researching steel but can be changed and it is set to zero. I think we need some cash for rushes and possibly cannon upgrades.

Not really happy about my lack of progress on the fur town and the lose of Sidon but we are holding and hopfully with a few more leaders and factories about to turn the corner.

 

[LKendter]

Change Rotterdam to a factory and rush it.
Rotterdam factory starts on courthouse.

Why did we rush a factory in a city that needs a courthouse? Is this one of those one shield short deals?

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Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Zwingli
hotrod0823
Meldor (currently playing)

Our general game plan:
1) Science research must be very aggressive with deficit spending if we can afford it.
2) Try to build the roads before the city to take maximum advantage of the 3 tile city plans.
3) For the most part raze all cities unless they have a useful wonder

Remember 5 to 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Additional restriction: No armies

 

[Greebley]

IIRC, Rotterdam is our big shield city just outside our capitol. The courthouse would probably only give a few more shields. We may be better off skipping the courthouse and going for Infantry now, as it would take several player turns to "break even" on the 80 shields spent.

So I think we rushed the right factory, but are better off skipping the courthouse. Unfortunately, I don't have the save to make sure I am thinking of the right city.

 

[Zwingli]

Since we have nothing invested in Steel, how about going for Nationalism next? A round of drafting in our corrupt/maxed out cities might give us the defensive leeway to put more units on offense. By using conscript infantry to finish redlined units we can quickly promote them to regular (and if they die it isn't a big deal). I don't know how useful the police specialists would be, but they are an added bonus.

 

[Greebley]

I like this idea. Extra Conscript infantry would have allowed us to keep Sidon, I bet. This is especially true if we are attacked by lesser units as the conscript units will win and promote all the way to elite with multiple attacks. Some won't make it, but some will.

[Edit: We do have to be careful we don't overuse it though, as that will lead to our losing our scientists and ability to research quickly. All players will need to be careful on their use of this.]

 

[hotrod0823]

Greebley is correct Rotterdam was our highest shield town without the courthouse but has IIRC 5 or 6 corrupted shields. I rushed the factory in the town that had the highest shield output and was lucky enough to be empty after just finishing a cavalry.

It can be swapped to anything.

 

[LKendter]

Researching steel but can be changed and it is set to zero. I think we need some cash for rushes and possibly cannon upgrades.

I can't believe this question keeps coming up. Let me put my answer in simple term: Do you want to lose to a UN vote? WE WILL if we haven't taking the science lead by the end of this age.

I really feel like I have been banging my head against the wall on science. A few better units are worthless if we lose the race to the UN, or the AI has tanks for to long before we do. What do I need to do to get people to stop suggesting conversing cash for upgrades? If we lose the game to the UN it will be the cash spent our upgrades and the failure to stay at maximum research the whole game.

My proposed science path is Nationalism first as I agree with the draft idea. After that I propose Medicine and Scientific Method. NONE of the AIs have started ToE yet. I will gladly trade shields for 2 techs at this point. We still have an outside shot at Hoover and that would be a major plus.

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I got a chance to look at the game:

1) Bag the courthouse in Rotterdam. It can produce cavalry every other turn right now. Since we have a pitiful 11 cavalry right now that is a big help.

2) While the majority of our factories will have to come from leader rushes, I think we need build some naturally. I propose a maximum of *one* at a time being hand built. We won't defeat the AI civs until the majority of our high-shield cities have factories. I propose The Hague for the first hand built factory. If will go from an infantry every 5 turns to an infantry every 3 turns. That is worth tying the city up for 10 turns.

3) One the other hand I propose NO coal plants. We don't have the worker force to deal with that extra level of pollution. I already notice too much of our small worker force is tied up doing damage repair. Add in pollution and our workers won't keep up.

 

[meldor]

Got it and will start working on it.

 

[hotrod0823]

After playing the last round artillery vs Cannons is a HUGE difference. We have limited artillery right now and the ones that we do have are invaluable.

The additional range and ability to hit 2x per attack make a great difference. IF our cannons were all artillery we may be able actually kill some units rather than just fend them off.

I don't believe that the AI are that far ahead of us in tech. Like you said no one has started ToE yet.

 

[Greebley]

Actually my suspicion is that the AI's have all mobilized and so cannot build wonders and that this is the reason we have not seen the TOE. It could also mean the UN and space are very low threats.

On the other hand I am really worried about tanks. If I am right they could show up at any time and we will have no warning (based on wonders) if this is correct.

 

[hotrod0823]

If tanks are the real threat, and I believe you are correct, then we really need stronger defensive forces. Tanks coming out of the fog will put a hurting on our Swiss Merc protected towns. At least with infantry and rifles stacks you can see them coming.

 

[LKendter]

It could also mean the UN and space are very low threats.

Please read up the Persian AWE I played awhile back. It was a DIPLOMATIC LOSS. Never discount the UN as that is the biggest loss danger after rails are built.

 

[Greebley]

I agree the that the UN is a threat. I just don't see it as the largest threat for this particular game at this particular time. The game you mention that was lost by UN was different in that warfare wasn't intense enough to cause the AI to mobilize. I think the AI is mobilizing in this one; perhaps all of them. We will see if any civ ever starts a wonder.

I am really worried about Tanks, Bombers and especially TOW. Any civ can build TOW and we won't be able to kill those with cavalry. This to me is a bigger concern at the moment than the UN.

We do agree on means - fast reasearch. We need a unit with better than a 6 attack. Even tons of artillery do not destroy the last hp of a red-lined unit and that is what is killing us. We are suffering too many losses killing red-lined units to make any progress. Thus upgrading artillery helps some, but does not fix our major weakness.

For that reason I think we need to get to either Bombers or tanks quickly.

I am wondering if it is worthwhile to go for medicine and scientific method, but then choose the techs to get to flight/tanks? Those two tech are cheaper than the later industrial techs, but do require us to take a major town off of units.

In any case, I think the chance of us reaching Fission before the AI is zero. Even if the AI is mobilized now and are currently unable to build the UN, we still want fission as soon as possible, because a war with another AI followed by peace could enable them to start it.

However, if we are worried about the UN loss we should get Epsionage too. That way we can sabatage production if worse comes to worse. If we already have Nationalism then we can go for Espionage when the AI enters the modern age, or when we have gotten bombers and/or tanks.

 

[Zwingli]

Perhaps in order to speed research we should "convert" about half of our cannon into artillery. Set 4 of our corrupt cities slowly accumulating shields to build artillery, and disband 6 cannon in each city once they reach 20 shields. This would save net 20gpt, paying for the upgrade of 1 cannon every 6 turns. Considering that artillery have ~3x the hitting power of cannon plus the advantage of extra range, we would break even in bombardment capability in the short term without slowing research (I consider 6 artillery the equivalent of 24 cannon). In the medium to long term we could either increase our net bombardment capability or our research capacity using the unit savings.

Note: Sumeria has over 10,000g in their treasury which we can use to boost research if we can plunder even one of their cities.

 

[LKendter]

I am wondering if it is worthwhile to go for medicine and scientific method, but then choose the techs to get to flight/tanks? Those two techs are cheaper than the later industrial techs, but do require us to take a major town off of units.

Would you like to get Hoover? That would help with production as we already have two factories and more on the way.

In any case, I think the chance of us reaching Fission before the AI is zero. Even if the AI is mobilized now and are currently unable to build the UN, we still want fission as soon as possible, because a war with another AI followed by peace could enable them to start it.

That is always a worry of AI wars and peace. The Aztecs seem to be awful quite.

We do agree on means - fast research.

I agree 100%. Why do you think I keep complaining when science is slowed down, money is spent on upgrades, and we aren't at optimal specialists?

The inverse of the research problem is slowing down the AI. That is why I want that fur town gone. That AI will either hire more clowns or up the luxury tax. Either way that is less cash for research. Luxury denial IMO is the most effective way to cripple the AI production and research. I certainly wouldn't argue with a slowdown of infantry coming our way.

 

[LKendter]

The confusion of cross posting...

Perhaps in order to speed research we should "convert" about half of our cannon into artillery. Set 4 of our corrupt cities slowly accumulating shields to build artillery, and disband 6 cannon in each city once they reach 20 shields.

We already have the corrupt cities building shields. The northern specialist cities that I think are on courthouses that could become artillery. I agree that artillery is way better than cannons. I would convert at least a few blocks of cannons to artillery this way.

Note: Sumeria has over 10,000g in their treasury which we can use to boost research if we can plunder even one of their cities.

I agree this could be a big science boost, or the change to upgrade some units WITHOUT slowing the science pace.


The lurkers must love all this discussions for squeezing a bit more out of your civ.

 

[Greebley]

If the Sumeria is that rich I feel that taking out Umma is definitely worth going for after the furs soon as we have enough fire to redline the defenders.

It would be worth 500 odd gold for us and if we do it before they get Infantry we are only attacking rifles. I suspect we can do this.

We may even want to go for more than one city depending on our strength. Might be more lucrative than the Mongols.

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I agree Hoover would be nice to go for if we have sufficient factories to make it worthwhile. If not, I prefer getting tanks/planes first and Hoover second when we have more factories.