LK76 - AWE - Pangea, No armies, Random Civ

Got it and will play tomorrow.

Do we want to consider going staight for Rep Parts? If we can get to artillery and infantry, we can simply defend and bombard. We won't lose any cities, and we get double speed repair of any damage.

Or do you all feel production from factories (that we can't afford to build) is more important?
 
I think that getting infantry and arty first would be a smart move. That would certainly help on the kill ratio and let us start hitting them before they are beside our cities.

It might also let us get some breathing room so that some of the factories can build without having to rush them.

One interesting thing in this game is that it doesn't appear that the AI's have fought each other much. I haven't seen any stretches were we weren't being attacked by all of the AI's. That hasn't helped us at all.
 
The Aztecs were probably at war. There were long stretches with no troops from them. In general, though, I agree. It has been a hard game in more ways than one.

We have depressingly few Cavalry - as many as I had when I started my previous turn (so no gain in 40-50 turns).

I am going to try my best to build up our cavalry. I am thinking of defending vs the rifles rather than attack. This can be done, but it is tricky to do right. We will see how it goes. There may be too much going on to pull it off.
 
I am thinking of defending vs the rifles rather than attack. This can be done, but it is tricky to do right.
I was trying to get this to happen. However, the rifle stacks were simply going deeping into our territory to pillage. Leave them alone, and they will pillage us to death.

May you be blessed with coal.
 
To get them to attack you have to lessen the defense in the city and then bombard them so too many don't attack at once else they take the town. As I said, it is very tricky. Too little defense and the town falls, too much, and the rifles pillage instead. I will err toward them not attacking and will definitely only consider this for corrupt towns I could replace as well as guard against the fact that a fallen town allows for deeper incursions into our territory.


I have successfully done all this before, but it may not be possible (or too complex) here. In that case I will simply try to survive.

I pray for coal too.

[Edit: As one final comment for anyone who wants to try this, injured or weaker unit in the town can be used to guarantee you don't lose the town. You can increase the number of units above the number of attackers, so if the first 2 Defenders die, they don't take the town but kill some lesser units). It is one of the few things that regular warriors are best at.
 
Preturn:
I go through the towns to MM them. They are in pretty good shape. I stop one rioting town and hire some scientists in towns where it doesn't change the build speed of our defenses. Steam in 3 but I will have to lower science. I also switch Lauwersoog so it isn't starving.

IBT: Cav attacks our Swiss Merc, but we win.

1405 AD: Play defensively. I try to not risk units. I only go for easier kills (1 hp rifle, longbow, injured cav).

IBT: We get good RNG on defense and only lose one Swiss Merc.

1410 AD: MM to still get steam in 1 turn.

IBT: Lose 2 swiss Mercs on defense. 5 Aztec Cavalry show up. Not what we wanted to see. We get steam and start on electricity.

1415 AD: We do have coal There are 2 more sites that are only slightly outside our reach if we need them.
Oh there is another site we could hook up. Coal is not a problem. Hopefully our iron source won't move although there is one right outside our borders if it does. Lose a cav on attack.

IBT: The Aztec cavalry do not attack but place themselves on the mountains so I can get to them well.

1420 AD: I try to defend the cities as best I can. We already have more mobility for our Cavalry which allows us to kill some red-lined rifles before they retreat and even get to the longbow underneath.

IBT: The four cavalry in our lands and some more from off screen all attack Gouda. We get better than average luck and only 2 Mercs die. Four cavalry of theirs have 3 hp.

1425 AD: We are doing better and being overrun. There are just so many enemy troops. We get a leader. Will probably be used for helping Infra.

IBT: The rifle poke a hole in our line.

1430 AD: Trying to build up strength while keeping out the enemy. Not easy. We are definitely gaining with Cavalry. The careful strategy is working for the most part.
I lose a cav attacking another cav.

IBT: Our two Swiss mercs lose to two rifles in dordrecht and we lose the city. Well it had to happen at some point. Too much to do.. Fortunately, this is an almost entirely useless city.

1435 AD: Not so good a round. Lose 2 cav taking the town back; the second one vs an MDI. Lose a Cav vs Cav fight. One bad round can really hurt. 12 Cav total.

IBT: Lose two mercs on defense.

1440 AD: Bombard 2 Cavalry to 1 hp - get a leader off the first one.

IBT: Grrr... Aztecs attack Gouda and weaken it enough that an injured Babylon rifle can take it. This town had 2 cav and 3 Swiss Mercs.

1445 AD: Take Gouda back and give it heavier defense.

IBT: Gah! a LOT of Mongol Cavalry attack Gouda. It very nearly falls with 6 defenders in it (including 2 cav

1450 AD: Only good thing is that I can really mop up around Gouda. Most of our Cavalry is there after killing some units.

Notes:
I moved out several towns defenders to guard our worker force near Gouda. You will want to return them next turn.

The Hague is MM'ed to 22 shields as it lost some earlier. It can be returned to 20 next turn.

I would connect up a second silk for insurance against the AI pillaging

I leave the next player with a disappointing 12 Cavalry after an all time high of 16. The second half did not go so well with heavy attacks. I would continue to try to only attack red-lined rifles, or Cav/longbow.

We need to destroy Gordium. Its borders gives the AI first attacks on an important Lux city.

We can probably take out Samaria as well by sticking to the mountains.

The number of Sumerian rifles is getting a bit ridiculous. We should be able to bombard it more.

Since we got Steam, I went ahead and ran science slightly lower to upgrade some of the Trebs. This increased our attacks and allowed me to red-line more units.

Electricity in 21; then on to Rep Parts.

Getting rifles to attack is very difficult this game. I had a few limited successes, but not a whole lot. The cavalry also mess things up for this. We will likely have to kill the rifles the hard way.

I increased our cannon count - we now have 40 of them.

Middleburg and Holwerd have had their 10 shields messed up. 9 shields works almost as well for Cavalry, but I would build an RR to get them to 10 anyway.

A lone ship has been bombarding us.

I think we can win this by surviving to Rep Parts and then destroying the AI with artillery barrages defended by infantry.

[Edit: I somehow forgot to mention I rushed a temple in Bactra with a second leader. The expansion should be soon.]
 
We do have coal
[dance]
We still have a fighting chance. Extra mobility and eventually more shields in our cities.

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IBT: Our two Swiss mercs lose to two rifles in dordrecht and we lose the city

Aztecs attack Gouda and weaken it enough that an injured Babylon rifle can take it.
It is getting rougher even if we did recover the cities.

====================

Do we want to consider going staight for Rep Parts? If we can get to artillery and infantry, we can simply defend and bombard. We won't lose any cities, and we get double speed repair of any damage.

Or do you all feel production from factories (that we can't afford to build) is more important?
To late to comment - I just noticed I completely missed this debate.

Now lets pray going this path gives us rubber.

====================

Since we got Steam, I went ahead and ran science slightly lower to upgrade some of the Trebs.
Nothing I can to about it at this time, but I disagree with this. What is killing is our the horrid tech position we are in. This only delays the time to infantry, artillery and factories arrive.

====================

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Zwingli (currently playing)
hotrod0823 (on deck)
Meldor

Our general game plan:
1) To target our cities to always be 3 apart tiles. With no armies it is really critical to keep this rule going.
2) Science research must be very aggressive with deficit spending if we can afford it.
3) Try to build the roads before the city to take maximum advantage of the 3 tile city plans.
4) Raze all cities unless they have a useful wonder.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Additional restriction: No armies
 
I think that in this case, infantry and arty first is the best move. We need the better defenders to allow us to stop building so many defenders ans build up attackers. Industrial will be a lot cheaper by the time we get to it. Maybe with infantry we can take out the Persians and make it cheaper still.
 
It is getting rougher even if we did recover the cities. [/qoute]

I suspect things will come in waves. The mongols had stopped attacking us to the SE before the attack. I think the switch in targets is part of the explanation of the surge in units.

I agree with Meldor on the tech path.


Quote: Since we got Steam, I went ahead and ran science slightly lower to upgrade some of the Trebs.

Nothing I can to about it at this time, but I disagree with this. What is killing is our the horrid tech position we are in. This only delays the time to infantry, artillery and factories arrive.

It is possible you are right. The problem was that we weren't red-lining units and cavalry had to sit idle. The are 40+ Sumerian rifles now and the numbers are still increasing. We have to get our kill rate up now. Infantry will be coming soon and will be even harder to red-line.

As for tech, I don't think the problem is that we are in a tech hole. The AI doesn't even have infantry yet. The problem is the large number of units coming at us each turn. Trimming those numbers will help us survive until we get the needed techs.

So while I agree getting the tech quickly is of high importance, the fact that in some earlier turns we weren't able to red-line any units - well it meant we didn't have sufficient artillery power. I had to change towns away from cavalry to build more cannon - it was our primary shortage and enemy units were penetrating deep into our territory.

So the upgrading is one of the reasons behind why our lands are not currently full of enemy troops; the rails being the other admittedly larger one.(allowing more cannon to come into play).

As I said it was a touch call. for me The reasons above are why I chose the way I did. It is hard for me to judge the difference between Treb and Cannon, but the Treb just weren't doing much in the first turns with long strings of misses. Perhaps that is just the RNG though. Not sure.
 
I am already worried that based on our tech pace and almost none existent expansion that this game is heading toward a UN loss. We can reduce that danger by destroying Persia, but I am not sure if that is enough to prevent it.

Our real need is to start expanding our empire again, and infantry will be the key to do so.

I would like to get to the point of moving toward the furs to give us a 4th luxury, and to weaken the AI production / science rate. I can't see that until after we have infantry.
 
After game I will take a short AWE break. This is just to stressful, but hate the way AWE plays out with armies. Just wait until you get 2 to 3 armies in the field and raze AI cities.

I can tell I have run to many very hard military games as a bit of Civ exhaustion is starting to set in. I need to come up with a couple of "easy" ideas.
 
Maybe the balance is that arimes can only be used defensively and never to pillage deeper than one city into enemy territory.

This would relieve pressure on defending units and allow pillaging of cities that you want to attack but keep off the table the army blitz.
 
I was trying to define this idea too that Meldor mentions. Here was my best attempt:

Land units cannot bypass a city without destroying it first.
Sea units can go anywhere and drop off land units on any coast. The land units must then destroy the cities before passing them either inland or along the coast (though they can bypass the coastal city by getting back on the boat).


The idea here is to lessen the AI weakness of leaving armies completely alone and allowing massive pillaging. If it didn't have this weakness, you could pillage coastal resources by using boats, but inland resources would require fighting your way there. Its not exact because you can drop off a smaller force and get away again instead of being killed.

Another way to lessen intensity is to go for continents rather than pangea.
 
I have gotten to turn 6 tonight, but due to the length of turns I will take another half day to finish. So far we have suffered relatively few losses with reasonable to good RNG luck. The best news is that Mongolia's saltpeter depleted and reappeared in our territory :D.
 
1450 AD (0)
There are 92 visible enemy units although most are currently healing or in transit. The next few turns will be trouble. Unless absolutely necessary, I plan to attack only redlined riflemen or yellow cavalry.

IBT-1 rifle defeated, no losses. Babylon drops a lone rifle behind the lines.

1455 AD (1)
Bombard and destroy 5 rifles, 1 musket, 2 cavalry, and 2 longbowmen without loss.

IBT- 1 cav defeated, but after supporting naval bombardment, the landed rifleman kills our defending merc and captures Leidin (I had thought it would go for an undefended city).

1460 AD (2)
Recapture Leidin from redlined rifle. A total of 3 riflemen, 4 cavalry, 1 longbow, and 1 spear are removed without loss. There are still huge Sumerian stacks approaching the north-eastern cities and I have to pull mercs from elsewhere to ensure no lost cities.

Leidin has most infrastructure intact, but lost the library.

IBT- 4 riflemen killed at a cost of 2 mercs, but the Sumerians overrun one of our forts with a large rifle stack. The damaged portion of the Sumerian super-stack retreats

1465 AD (3)
3 riflemen and 3 cavalry destroyed without loss.

IBT- Sumeria loses 2 rifles killing 2 mercs

1470 AD (4)
Kill 5 riflemen, 4 longbows, 2 cavalry, and 1 knight without losses. A couple of the smaller stacks have been destroyed.

IBT- Lose 1 merc and an unimportant road is pillaged.

1475 AD (5)
Kill 4 rifles, 2 MDI, 2 longbows, 2 cavs, and 1 knight at a cost of 1 cavalry.

IBT- We defeat 2 mongolian Cavalry in defense, and the Mongolian saltpeter supply appears in our territory.

1480 AD (6)
Destroy 5 riflemen, 1 cav, 1 knight, 1 musket, and 1 mdi at a cost of 1 cavalry. At this point, I feel we are nearly strong enough to go on the offense in the north (Sameria) and begin laying roads/rails in preparation.

IBT- 1 enemy cav dies to our defenses, riflemen mill around.

1485 AD (7)
Destroy 3 riflemen, 5 cav, and 1 musket costing 1 cavalry. Mercs and workers move into position for a rail line to Sameria.

IBT- Riflemen mill, no attacks except a couple naval bombards.

1490 AD (8)
Attack Samaria and capture it generating a leader (University in Delft). I know it is both over 3 tiles and an enemy city, but the flip risk should be minimal with low Persian culture, and rails negate the distance problem. We also need the extra culture coverage to make an attempt a grabbing furs from Babylon.

In total, we destroy 7 riflemen, 1 cavalry, 1 musket, and 1 longbow at a cost of 1 cavalry. With threatening riflemen at a new low, I move a settler and a 3 mercs toward Suruppak to claim the furs, and hopefully eliminate the northern front for good.

IBT- A bad round for defense as we lose 4 mercs in fortified positions for no enemy losses.

1495 AD (9)
3 riflemen and 7 cavalry destroyed (hopefully the last of the Mongolian breed) without loss. Settler stack advances on Suruppak, and workers begin railing toward our hopeful city position.

IBT- 2 cavalry and 1 knight defeated in defense at a cost of 2 mercs. However, these two mercs were extremely costly as a Sumerian rifle destroys the undelying (native) worker stack, and the Babylonians overrun a key mountain rail position linking Samaria with the rest of our territory. I was relying too much on the AI ignoring mountain mercs :cringe:.

1500 AD (10)
Despite our recent gains, the strategic position is now grim. Unless we can dislodge 6 riflemen and 1 knight from the mountain, we may lose Samaria and the upcoming fur city due to lack of reinforcements. We can either bomb the riflemen and hope they move off without pillaging the sole rail/road link, or scrape together all the cannon we have to kill them while putting off threats in other areas. I decide to retake the mountain at all costs...

Bombardment (barely) redlines all the riflemen and damages the knight, but we still lose 5 cavalry each with more than 4hp taking the mountain. To make matters worse, we lose 2 cavalry attacking a damaged logbow on another mountain outside Samaria and can't remove it. We do get a leader out of the combat.

With these losses we can't destroy Surrupak, but found Roosendaal anyway to claim furs. Lux tax lowered to 10% and science up to 40% with Electricity in 7 turns.
lk76_1500ad_map.jpg

Post-turn
Rails have really helped to focus our cannon on a single threat each turn and destroy it. Unfortunately, with the last turn's losses I leave somewhat of a mess to the next player with 10 cavalry remaining. We will probably need to simply damage all riflemen in range to give our units time to regroup. Enemy cavalry will attack the mountaintop mercs, so keep all key positions well staffed

I used the leader to rush a library in Samaria for fast culture, but this can be switched to a temple or walls if desired (I probably should have just left the leader active). There are a number of regular mercs building at the moment which can be thought of as city stuffers to prevent captures or mobile infrastructure to garrison unhappy cities.
 
I been following this LK76 with some interest, because it's given me a few tips to help my own game.
Nice to see that you've managed to take back some lost land, but feel a little bit sorry for the loses. Keep at them and don't give in.
 
I know it is both over 3 tiles and an enemy city, but the flip risk should be minimal with low Persian culture, and rails negate the distance problem.
I agree - the 3 apart rule isn't as critical with rails.

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However, these two mercs were extremely costly as a Sumerian rifle destroys the underlying (native) worker stack
Lost workers is very painful to hear. For an AWE game we have gain very little in free labor.

=======================

Time will tell if Samaria was worth it. 5 dead cavalry is very painful to read about.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Zwingli
hotrod0823 (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Our general game plan:
1) To target our cities to always be 3 apart tiles. With no armies it is really critical to keep this rule going.
2) Science research must be very aggressive with deficit spending if we can afford it.
3) Try to build the roads before the city to take maximum advantage of the 3 tile city plans.
4) Raze all cities unless they have a useful wonder.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Additional restriction: No armies
 
Things still sound rough.

I hope the rifle on our road to the north doesn't pillage as we will lose the furs.

Having a fourth Lux will help.

It looks like we can have a wall of defenders from Bactra to the neck of the peninsula all on mountains or hills. It seems worth trying to establish this if we can. Then after we take the Babylon town, we will be able to clean out the north and will have a shorter front.

The next player should check for riots. Our capitol at least is currently unhappy.

Its good to see less Sumerian rifles. Babylon is picking up the slack though...
 
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