LK81 - Exploring RaR, Monarchy, a new civ

[LKendter]

this means getting the money back and having the chance for SGLs.

I play the LK series with them turned off. We won't see a game unbalancing SGL.

if they should declare war - they do and we are now in war with the Zulus!

There is nothing I can to a this point, but I disagree with the defiance. Even without alliances the peace will most likely cost us more then the $44 demand. IMO slowing down the expansion phase and possibly needing to build more military was a mistake.


Signed up:
LKendter
Rrau
Pfeffersack
Meldor (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I play the LK series with them turned off. We won't see a game unbalancing SGL.

Sorry, I didn't know that, but even without them I would decide this way.

There is nothing I can to a this point, but I disagree with the defiance. Even without alliances the peace will most likely cost us more then the $44 demand. IMO slowing down the expansion phase and possibly needing to build more military was a mistake.(...)

But the Zulu will also put additonal ressources in their military, which slows down their progress (them seem to be leading at the moment) and we experience increased happiness.If they should show up with some unit we can kill them for MGLs.So I don't see it as a mistake, but I see your points and will give in the next time, if I'm confronted with a demand under similar circumstances again.

 

[LKendter]

I think I have a different view of defiance / war then a lot of players. I don't like getting into a war unless I have a clear objective.

I have already started wars for something as little as 1 annoying city in my territory, or to kill a couple of settler pairs for some free workers. I even started to protect a monopoly tech. Wtih the absurd cash we have in this game despite all embassies built I am not worried about cash. I don't consider cash worth a war.

At this point I would build a least a couple of our best possible offensive unit.

 

[meldor]

I don't think the war will hurt that bad. At this point we can make sure we have a couple of defenders in the cities near that way and then a couple of offensive units to take out some troops. Once enough time passes or we take out the first troops to arrive, they will settle for peace alone.

 

[microbe]

I would agree with Lee on not having unnecessary wars.

There is one bad side effect: the more wars you have with a civ, the longer the "no talk" period you'll have with that civ in the next war.

At emperor it's probably not a problem, but sometimes we just want a quick war and losing that opportunity is bad.

 

[microbe]

I'm playing a solo game and have some experience.

1. The best defender is 1/3 in ancient ages (forget the name) and 1/4 in middle ages (pikemen). The best offender has attack 6 in middle ages.

2. We need to get at least two best defenders in our coastal cities, as some units have amphibious attack (Imperial Guard?) and AI WILL use it to raze your cities. Some navy wouldn't hurt.

3. Units have only 2 movement on road. This means AI landing is more difficult to deal with. Don't leave your core too empty if it's close to coast.

4. You can only load 2 units in an army until you have 3 armies and build Pentagon. AI WILL attack armies and killing them isn't difficult.

5. Get enough defenders if you are going to take cities. It's not hard to take city but counterattack will come and take it back. At emperor AI usually have 2 defenders in a city.

 

[LKendter]

Another factor in the war issue is that civs you have fought are more likely to agree to fight you again. Take a look at LK75 where we annoyed to many civs. Some of the same Civs keep war after war going. We were nice to France and still haven't had to fight them.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I would agree with Lee on not having unnecessary wars.
There is one bad side effect: the more wars you have with a civ, the longer the "no talk" period you'll have with that civ in the next war.At emperor it's probably not a problem, but sometimes we just want a quick war and losing that opportunity is bad.

Never heard of that.You convinced me, 44 gold isn't worth a war if you consider all the negativ effects.I will keep those things in mind if I get extorted for a few coins the next time...it will make it easier to swallow my pride

(...) 2. We need to get at least two best defenders in our coastal cities, as some units have amphibious attack (Imperial Guard?) and AI WILL use it to raze your cities. Some navy wouldn't hurt.(...)

Imperial Guards are amphibious, Swordsmen (+UUs which replace them) and even the defensive Spearman (which the AI uses for amphibious assaults on undefended cities, too).

 

[meldor]

1250 BC (0)
Not much to do. The Zulu still aren't talking. Nothing to do on the trade screen.
(I) Zeila monument->Worker Housing.

1225 BC (1)
I get to move the settler and the scouts.
(I) Cleo extorts 39g.

1200 BC (2)
I have to pass on buying a worker from the Sioux. The Zulu still won't talk.

1175 BC (3)
Still no action from the Zulu.

1150 BC (4)
The city of Adulis is built to bring in the Olives. I start it on a Monument. I drop Science down to 50%.
(I) We get Philosophy and I take Classical Education as the free tech. We then start in on Monotheism. Aksum Palace Gardens->Javelineer.

1125 BC (5)
Philosophy gets us Construction and 101g from Carthage, and Philosophy and 9g gets Aristocracy from the Sioux.

1100 BC (6)
The Zulu will talk and we make happy, exchanging 150g for Trade. We still have a monopoly on Classical Education.
(I) America tries to extort Classical Education. I am sorry, but I won't give up a monopoly tech mid-turn so they can trade it around. We are at war. Aksum Javelineer->Javelineer, Matara Shrine->Pioneer.

1075 BC (7)
Start the Javelineer towards Zeila. Our scout near America runs like heck.

1050 NC (8)
Not much.
(I) The Sioux and America embargo us. Aksum Javelineer->School of Scribes.

1025 BC (9)
Javelineer on its way to Adulis. The Olive Oil is hooked up but isn't enough to let us lower Lux.

1000 BC (10)
America still isn't talking. We still have the monopoly on Classical Education, there are several deals for it including getting that worker from the Sioux now that it is 1000 BC. We have two defenders in the cities to the west. Only one defender in the coastal city.

 

[microbe]

Got it .

 

[microbe]

Preturn: I would have chosen to research toward Democracy for better government.

Why are we building School of Scribles in our capital? Acadamy is cheaper and has the same effect. I am tempted to switch it to Hardy Pioneer but I keep it for now. It will take 4 more turns and we can build up more pop anyway.

Also, why Adulis is building Monument (we actually have built 2)? It has nothing to offer except culture. Shrine is the best way to get border expansion. I switch to granary. I also switch Matara to granary.

Babylon is down to 2CC.

We can buy a worker from Maya for 116g, but I sell Classical Education instead:
To Zulu for 293g
To Carthage for 137g
To Maya (no, Sioux) for worker+17g (not full price but should be close)

We can mine now so start mining around capital.

I have no idea what the worker is doing on the hill..

(1)975BC: nothing
(2)950BC: Zulu/Carthage have Civil Engineering.

IBT Zeila WH -> granary.

(3)925BC: Aksum Acadamy -> Handy Pioneer and MM to 15spt. Egypt starts Sphinx.

(4)900BC: CoL and Seafaring show up and we'll get them next turn. Sci drops to 10 and get Monotheism next turn.

(5)875BC: We get Monotheism as Monopoly. America agrees to talk but I'd rather keep the war happiness for now.

Monotheism to Zulu for Civil Engineering+125g.
Monotheism to Carthage for Seafaring+43g.
Civil Engineering to Sioux for Code of Laws+2g.

I start on Democracy in 6 turns. We want to revolt into it. AI is likely to stay with Republic if they get that tech first, so we could also get that tech and sell around to trick AI into it, but I'll go with Democracy for now. Hopefully AI will research Republic first.

IBT Matara granary->WH.

(6)850BC: We find cotton to our west. It's really good that Babylon's expansion got halted, that we have plenty of land to settle. No worry it will be stolen.

IBT Adulis granary->WH. Carthage starts Hanging Gardens.

(7)825BC: nothing.

IBT Capital settler->Javelineer MM to get in 2 turns. And damn, Babylon is going to settle the cotton spot. We need to take it out at some point.

(8)800BC: It's interesting to note that mining a hill takes much less time than mining a plain!

(9)775BC: 3 AI have Republic! That's really good.

Our scount sees pigs.

(10)750BC: lower sci and Democracy will be in next turn.

Note: the settler and the Javelineer are going to the white spot. It will waste a few tiles but it's next to river and coast. The pink dot could be settled later. Another Javelineer at capital is going to scout around north-east for the next city spot.

Let's revolt next turn into Democracy. Carthage/Zulu/America is in anarchy. Do not sell Democracy until they enter Republic!

Babylon blocked our expansion to the west but let's not worry about it now. It should be easy to build a few archers to take it out at some point.

For all new cities, in general I would go for granary, WH first. If you need happiness building, build a shrine. In fact, we may build it in capital now and it will allow us to drop lux to 0.

Remember: we are still at war with America. It hasn't sent anything to us. I would stay in war until we see their units or it is close to the tech that allows Military Alliance (should be next age).

 

[Greebley]

lurker's comment: One nice thing about an ancient-age/early middle age war is that some of the units enslave. You can build up a substantial numbers of slaves that saves you from building workers.

Also the slaves are nice for a quick border expansion. I think 1 is sufficient to expand the border. Very nice for cities that want a cow right away. Not sure if there are limitations on doing this.

As a side note, I heard somewhere that it didn't matter if a resource was connected or not for depletion purposes.

Also I think Republic a good govt. It does give the commercial bonus of +1 gold even though the Civopedia doesn't mention it. I think it better than Democracy with the high unit costs.

 

[meldor]

The worker on the hill was moving to Zeila to improve around it. That was the fastest way. The school of scribes adds 50% and doesn't expire, the effect of the Academy adds to this, 50% from each, why not build both? The monument was for cheap culture. The shrine takes longer in a low pop town, the monument gets the expansion faster.

 

[microbe]

lurker's comment: Also I think Republic a good govt. It does give the commercial bonus of +1 gold even though the Civopedia doesn't mention it. I think it better than Democracy with the high unit costs.

If it adds commerce bonus then I agree. Damn it, I trusted the documentation too much.

The shrine takes longer in a low pop town, the monument gets the expansion faster.

Why do we want expansion so badly? It's not like there is a bonus tile we want right away.

 

[Pfeffersack]

lurker's comment: One nice thing about an ancient-age/early middle age war is that some of the units enslave. You can build up a substantial numbers of slaves that saves you from building workers.

Also the slaves are nice for a quick border expansion. I think 1 is sufficient to expand the border. Very nice for cities that want a cow right away. Not sure if there are limitations on doing this.

Yes, slaves are indeed a nice thing to have around as workforce, but I would abstain from sacrificing them immediately - I would upgrade them to workers before doing so.If you upgrade them to Workers (ok, it costs 87, but if you have the moeny...), you can sacrifice them for 20 culture points instead of 2.There are no limitations on this and especially if you trying an 25000-culture-victory, it is a nice thing if time gets short.

lurker's comment: As a side note, I heard somewhere that it didn't matter if a resource was connected or not for depletion purposes..

I thought a long time building a city on the top of a ressource prevents depleting, but it proofed wrong.I'm not sure about connecting, but I have never experienced the depletion of an unconnected ressource.

lurker's comment: Also I think Republic a good govt. It does give the commercial bonus of +1 gold even though the Civopedia doesn't mention it. I think it better than Democracy with the high unit costs.

I would go for Republic, too (only drawback it has pop-rushing instead of cash-rushing).But since we are religious another switch is only a minor problem.For government choices it is usually best to consult the editor, unless you are absolutely sure you have the newest civilopedia around (which has corrected governments entries).

(...)The school of scribes adds 50% and doesn't expire, the effect of the Academy adds to this, 50% from each, why not build both?

In the very long run, yes. But nevertheless you should always prefer a cheaper building with the same or better effects (here: same science output, additonal +1 culture and it is the prequesite for the SW "The Academy" - and all this for -20 shields!), the expensive one could be build always later...

The monument was for cheap culture. The shrine takes longer in a low pop town, the monument gets the expansion faster.

Remember, we are religious.Which means that both monument and shrine cost 20 shields.And the shine provides additional +1 happiness (under cost of 1 maintenance, but that shouldn't be a problem with our amount of cash)

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Rrau (on deck)
Pfeffersack
Meldor
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


I am looking at my spreadsheet on RaR govt. and it still isn't clear if Republic or Democracy is better. I do notice Democracy has higher unit support cost (OUCH!)

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I am looking at my spreadsheet on RaR govt. and it still isn't clear if Republic or Democracy is better

That was the intention .

 

[Matt_G]

lurker's comment:
Take a look at this spreadsheet guys. Sounds like it will come in handy.

BTW, that is the top post of page 31 of the RaR thread in the Completed Modpacks forum.

 

[LKendter]

750 BC
Note: You can mine forest in RaR. That is more powerful that a mined plain. I cancel the plains being mined near the capitol.

I notice an unescorted settler out there. RaR seems to have more aggressive AI. I got destroyed more than once fooling around with the game and weak defenders or empty cities. We need to be fanatical on no open cities.

I didn't realize how much Olive Oil rocks for a tile to develop. 3 food and 4 shields is awesome from a tile.

I upgrade 2 guardsmen to javelineers.
(IT) I know elephants are great with wars, so I start research on riding to head to elephant training.
I am still not sure if Democracy is the best, but I revolt.


690 BC
(IT) Riding completes and research on elephant riding begins.


670 BC
Samidi is formed to claim the white dot from Microbes map. We do want to get the white dot also, as that city will have great revenue.
I sell riding to the Zulu for $205. It devalued fast, but I get $75 out of Egypt for it.


650 BC
(IT) The Sioux get Democracy in tribute. All the tech leaders already know it.
American and Babylon embargo us. Does it really matter with no valid trade routes?


630 BC
I sign peace with America and get Iron Working at a discount price of $100.

I cash rush the shrine in Samidi to get the borders locked.
(IT) I start research on military training to get the rights to build barracks in all cities.


610 BC
I upgrade our first worker to serf for $0. We want to do this will all of our workers.

The Zulu continue to be great trading partners and we ship them Elephant Training for $235. I take all of American money for it and gain another $59. No other Civ is worth trading with.


590 BC
There is no Civ trying for the Colossus. However, it expires much early in RaR so I pass.

I give the Zulu $125 back and gain a worker that is immediately upgraded to serf.


550 BC
I pay America $23 and buy military training. Several Civs got it this turn.
I start research on Currency, as I see no benefit from any of the remaining optional techs.


==========================

Summary:
I am trying to get our capitol to a size 14 and a shield powerhouse. At that point I would pump out Elephants like crazy so that we can apply the

I still want the purple from Microbe as that city will be revenue awesome and grow nicely with a harbor.
I would also like the below city to claim dyes as another luxury.



Signed up:
LKendter
Rrau (currently playing)
Pfeffersack (on deck)
Meldor
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK81-550BC.zip

 

[rrau]

ok, got it. Now back to work