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Lo5 01 - The Puppetmaster

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by LawOfFives, Aug 23, 2006.

  1. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    UK, Coventry
    I fomented the war between Greeks and Celts mainly to keep Greeks backward. Now that they are building GL, we should come up with some idea to make them fail their great plan of possessing this wonder.

    Spain, because we want them to win a war with Greece, has to more advanced in tech then Greeks if they want to be successful. To make things worse instead of building up her military Spain is building 5 wonder in nearly of her cities. Taking the "lower" path of research (leading to military tradition) is disputable. We need universities ASAP to ensure we are the world tech leaders.

    If Spain does not cease to build these wonders, she will be next prey of mighty Greeks, which is sad.

    I would not hope for Arabs, since they backward, even more than Greeks.
     
  2. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    I concur. I hope that the consensus actually *is* to go with Sipahis, but I realize I'm only one vote. Well, 2 with Frrosch. :)

    Lo5
     
  3. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    Anar, it takes a *lot* of income in a city to make a university pay off IMO. In a normal game even our libraries (yes, even as scientific) would be debatable, again IMO. (Of course in a normal game, we would be in the process of mercilessly crushing the hapless Spaniards right now. :-D) And we're already the tech leaders. And by the time time to get those universities built is about the time needed to reach Mil Trad and get 1/4 a way into our big giveaway of Greece to Spain, I'd guess. :)

    Spain only needs to be advanced enough to field units that can take down cannon-redlined last defenders. Med infs, which the idiots will probably build in any case, should be enough. We'll want cannons anyway so that we can count defenders. The usual problem of them slowing down our advance doesn't apply because it's not our advance, it's Spain's, and if anything we'll need to slow down to respect their pace. :) Some Sipahis within spain to take down Greek marauders will certainly be nice, though.

    The Spanish and the Greeks are no longer at war right now, so for the moment, they're not really threatened by the Greeks. Or do you think they're itching to re-declare on Spain? Are there any good indicators for that? Tim often has a nose for this kind of stuff -- Tim?

    The Great Library is nearing the end of its useful life. If we really want to hurt the Greeks (and ourselves too) we *let* them build it. However, it will take a lot longer than half a turnset for them to complete the one they manually started. :-D It's more an issue as a cascade for any other build they've got going, if they've got any -- do they?

    POST-EDIT: The wonder cascades could start hitting really soon. Maybe we should gift Lit to spain if they don't already have it, so that they hopefully get expensive libararies instead of expensive courthourses or worse yet super-expensive temples (as Religious).

    Lo5
     
  4. Bucephalus

    Bucephalus Shooting from the lip....

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    lurker's comment: If nobody minds me poking my nose in, I have a comment: Have you considered Spain winning by Spaceship? For that, Spain doesn't need to be strong, just alive. If the Greeks look like they might destroy Spain - and you cannot stop them - you could try one of two things; 1) If you have enough units, you could get a ROP with Spain, then surround completely the most likely city, and continue to do so as long as necessary, or, 2) In extremis, declare war on Spain yourselves, and try to leave one city surrounded by your territory. If the Greeks defeat the other cities, then it will become the new capital, and free of flip-risk. Then, for the rest of the game, spoon-feed Spain everything they need, while they sit cocooned in your protective bosom.
     
  5. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    Maybe you are right and I am too excited with our scientific trait. But according to Bucephalus' comment we can do it another way round. While focused on research, we will defend Spain from any invaders, and once the time is right we'll let them launch their Spaceship. Actually this option seems the most doable for me. In this case we should go straight for education. What do you think about this way of winning the game?
     
  6. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    BTW now we should build aqueducts.
     
  7. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    I agree with the (implied) idea that we should respect our trait. However, we should also respect our gold input. At the moment, we can raise our beaker income more effectively by investing those shields in other things. E.g. harbors will increase beakers by letting us work more squares and high-gold ones. Aqueducts will let us work more squares. Granaries will let us work more squares (but careful there). Courthouses will bring in beakers. And military units can do awesome things to bring in beakers too, muahaha...

    Don't get me wrong, I think half-price uni's are great, but even at half price, they're for quite developed cities. If we beeline for them, we'll have them before being anywhere near that level of development.

    Also, we have three advantages -- scientific, industrious, and sipahi. Scientific is just one of them. We've just put a major push into respecting Scientific (via libraries) and Industrious (via workers). Sipahi are cryin' for a little lovin', y'know! :lol:

    But yeah, a tiny spain could certainly win the space race -- IF it has a patron making sure Bad Things Happen to anyone who starts to look like they could win instead. To have the kind of power to make Bad Things Happen, we will still need military strength. Like, say, a beeline to sipahis. :p

    OK, that makes the third time I've said "beeline for sipahis!!" in one form or another, so I will now officially shut up. :lol:

    Lo5
     
  8. frrosch

    frrosch Chieftain

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    Close to Nurenberg, Germany
    OK, let's go:

    Preturn 170 B.C:
    Science down to 60% what saves us 12 gpt (now -17 instead of -29) by only losing 1 turn).
    I think I'll build a military during my turnset, and be it only to upgrade it lateron.

    Mugla switched from Library to Courthouse, with 1 beaker per turn it won't need a library anytime soon.
    Selfishville horseman -> harbour. Will give us a 3 food wale.
    Izmit library -> harbour. It has only 1 3fpt and 1 2fpt tiles and the library isn't really worth it yet.

    rest seems ok, so I start.

    Turn 1 150 BC:
    Sword kills barb warrior without loss of HP.
    As an irrigation is finished I MM Konya/Guiseppe for +2 gpt without any loss.
    Arabia is at war with celtia as well, they conquered on of the 3 cities on the peninsula. Celtia has 4 cities left.
    I gift the spanish republic, they are now gracious.

    IBT:
    Swordsman gets attacked by barb horse, wins without loss of HP
    Edrine finishes library, starts aquaeduct
    Aydin's border expands
    Kafa finishes library, starts catapults.

    Turn 2 130 BC:
    Sword attacks barb horse, wins, loses 1 HP.
    Sword attacks barb horse, wins, loses no HP. No barbs visible any more.
    HMS Cheeseburgerbeast spots brown boarder.

    IBT:
    Greece and Celtia make peace. There were still 2 turns of MA left
    Curragh gets attacked by barb ship, wins, promotes (now elite, 5/5 HP)
    2 new barbs appear in the north.
    Guiseppe finishes horseman, starts a new one.
    Bursa finishes library, starts harbour.
    Military advisor tells me that it's said that there's a massive barb appearance close to Mugla. Wow, he really tells me news :lol:

    Turn 3 110 BC:
    Get contact to carthage. They are literature and republic back, as the americans. They got 10 cities, spices and loads of gold (627).
    Scince down to 50%, currency still done in 2.
    Notice that the greeks are in the Middle Ages. So there will be no need of gifting them there.
    I make peace with celtia, also already in the Middle Ages, get currency.
    Advance to Middle Ages, get monotheism as free tech. Greece as well got monotheism :(
    I gift Spain into the Middle Ages. Give them monotheism for monarchy.

    Now, as we got monarchy and no other medieval tech I'm thinking about going for universitys, but decide to go on fuedalism first. I decide to go for 50% science (-15 gpt, 13 turns), financing it by selling a tech to carthage.
    Do as said, sell carthago monarchy for 627 gold and sell it to America for 91 gold, because otherwise carthage will do it. We now got 842 gold, so I decide that we can even go 70% science, costing us 32 gpt but fuedalism now done in 10 turns.

    IBT:
    Carthage asks us to leave their territory.
    Spain lands a settler right next to Salonika.
    Arabia starts building collossus.
    Athens finishes Great library :sad:

    Turn 4 90 BC:
    nothing much, bit of MMing.

    IBT:
    Salonika riots :( sorry about this.
    Lots of World wonder switching.
    Barb turns up close to Mugla.

    Turn 5 70 BC:
    Establish RoP with Spain. send two workers to their territory.
    Hm, don't really know what to do with Salonika. A connection to the lux would solve the problems. I decide to let it starve, when it will grow the next time the harbour will be finished so it shouldn't be a problem.
    Sword kills barb.

    IBT:
    Loads of barbs turn up near Mugla and Salonika.
    Salonika starves.
    Arabia starts building Statue of Zeus.

    Turn 6 50 BC:
    All in all there are 16 barb horses an 1 warrior close to our cities in the north. I don't think I can kill them all. It seems like they also killed the spanish settler :(
    Move some units to the north, anti-barb.
    Second iron is connected.

    Take a deep breath and press enter

    IBT:
    Barb warrior attacks Mugla, looses. horsies ignore Salonica but will attack as soon as I move away the spear.
    Jiri Trnka finishes horse, starts spear.
    Izmit finishes harbour, starts spear.

    Turn 7 30 BC:
    spot blue border close to carthage, but can't get contact. I think we have to sail around for something like 5 turns to do so.

    ok, now it gets serious. our veteran spear in Mugla has to defeat 4 barb horses.

    IBT:
    Spear kills all 4 barb horses with only 1 HP lost, get's promoted after second.
    The spanish settler wasn't killed, they founded Zaragoza.
    4 barb horses move in direction to there.
    Guiseppe finishes horse, starts another.
    Skoupa finishes worker, starts harbour.
    Seville finishes MoM.
    Carthage starts pyramides.
    Carthage finishes great lighthouse.
    Greece starts great wall.
    americans start great wall.

    Turn 8 10 BC:
    Disband curragh close to greek territory, will only cost us.
    Kill 2 barb horses by attacking them. 6 left.
    road connection to spain is finished. I buy silks for iron and 64 gold. I hoped I could go down to 0 lux but I can't.
    Science down to 60%, fuedalism still done in 5 turns.

    IBT:
    The 4 barb horses that moved towards Zaragoza come back.
    Antalya finishes harbour, starts catapults.
    Greece starts building colossus.
    America starts building hanging gardens.

    Turn 9 10 AD:
    Nothing much. 6 barb horses will attack Antalya now, there is 1 spear, 1 warrior and 2 horses, all fortified.

    IBT:
    spear kills 5 horses, get's promoted, warrior kills the last one, doesn't get promoted. our spear is still alive.
    The 4 other horses seem to always move to and fro.
    Jim Henson finishes worker, starts another.
    Germany finishes pyramids.

    Turn 10 30 AD:
    Nothing much again. A lot of jungle chopping is already done, fuedalism done in 3 turns. There are already 2 workers in spanish territory, that should become more as their tiles are mainly unimproved.

    I don't have time for screens any more, so theres only the save today.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    Got the save, will play tonight.
     
  10. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    Should I play this turn?
     
  11. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    PMing Pneuma. If he doesn't post in this thread by late afternoon CET, please play so that I can conveniently *pick up* the save at least. (I only have 'net access at work at the moment, so I'll have to drop back in to drop off the save after I play.)

    Lo5
     
  12. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    Oh, um. Yeah, sorry.

    Playing now.
     
  13. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    Sometimes "tonight" means "three days from now, after having to be reminded."

    Turn 0: Wake Guiseppe's horse and move it to Kafa. We're in republic, so its doing nothing there.
    Giuseppe horseman -> market (it is getting 34 commerce total and is pushing up lux spending alone
    Micro in a few more loaves of bread

    IBT: Spain moves two archers to our border (probably to deal with barbs near their colony in the north)
    Jiri Trnka spear->harbor
    Izmit spear -> barracks
    5 libyan horses charge toward Mugla
    Madrid builds hanging gardens, nothing yet in the cascade

    T1 50 AD
    Move an elite spear and a 4/5 elite spear to intercept the barbarians in another turn. Move a swordsman to find their camp.
    In the proccess of that, I move two horses that I didn't see earlier to the southern border as well as the two new spears.
    Another worker moves into spain

    IBT: The three horses go... back to the fog?
    Kafa catapult->catapult
    The two spanish archers fortify.

    T2 70
    Move the sword to find the barbarian camp, and the two spears to make room for a new plan of attack
    The cheeseburgerbeast sees some germany-blue borders in the fog

    IBT
    Spanish archers move into our lands this time. Since the barbarian horses were in the LOS of that colony both times they moved, I'm almost certain that they mean no harm to us.
    Feudalism comes in, start on chivalry
    Selfishville harbor->minfantry
    The Colossus is built in Chicago (woo), nothing in the cascade.

    T3 90
    The barbarian hunting spears fortify (on a hill)
    After checking to see if we have a ROP with spain, I see that "always renegotiate deals" is on, and turn it off

    IBT
    All five horses charge and die. A flawless victory closes the epic saga
    Bursa harbor->catapult
    The great wall built in warshington

    T4 110
    Move around units in the north to end the barbarian threat by having all tiles visible to us, greece, or spain by 150 AD

    IBT
    The spanish archers head home
    Konya barracks->pike
    Kufah builds the SoZ. Maybe they'll be able to stand up to Alex after all. Greece and spain both put the lost shields into Sun Tzu's. Everyone else loses them.

    T5 130
    Disband 3 regular warriors
    Contact with Germany! They're down all four 4th tier ancient age techs

    IBT
    A worker in spain sees a settler pair moving towards the coast. Probably going for that last city spot in the north.
    Edrine aqueduct->catapult

    T6 150
    Nothing interesting

    IBT
    Aydin aqueduct->minfantry

    T7 170
    Lux up to 0.8.2 to make room for Edrine and Bursa.
    Three more reg warrior disbands

    IBT: Spanish galley leaving the city the settler went into moves north
    Edrine catapult->catapult
    Izmit barracks->minfantry
    Antalya catapult->catapult
    Kafa catapult->catapult
    (That may look like I'm going crazy with the artillery. But guess how many we have now. Four.)

    T8 190
    Science down for chivalry's imminent arrival

    IBT
    Arabia demands currency. I cave to the only nation weaker than us (hahahaha... no. They don't declare)
    Bursa catapult->market

    T9 210
    Nothing of note

    IBT
    Chivalry invented. Engineering is started on
    Giuseppe market ->Minfantry
    Edrine catapult->catapult
    Selfishville minfantry->minfantry
    Jim Henson (You know, he asked my grandmother out when they were in high school. She turned him down.) worker->library
    The greeks have chivalry too. They started the knights templar. (The spanish have the tech too, but no progress on the wonder)

    T10 230
    cmd-s cmd-shift-3 cmd-shift-3 cmd-q


    Our army is shamefully small. I did what I could to start fixing that, but our total army, including fog busters is: 2 warriors, 1 archer, 5 spearmen, 2 swordsmen, 3 horsemen, 6 catapults, and 1 minfantry. And that's only our front line (Kafa) troops. We haven't got anything stationed to deal with anything coming from the water. But since everything is fairly centralized, that shouldn't take much.
     
  14. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    0 turn - 230 AD:
    I change production in some cities. I am focused on aqueducts and marketplaces. No need for MDI or catapults since we are not about to declare war, moreover we are going to use our superSipahi.

    IBT: Alex demands 27 gp. I give in, no point taking a risk for that amount.

    1 turn - 240 AD:
    I build embassy in Mecca. Celts are down to 4 cities. We need more luxuries to afford faster research.

    2 turn - 250 AD:
    Spain begins Knights Templar.

    3 turn - 260 AD:
    We should establish a trade road to Arabs. They have two surplus luxuries and we have technologies that don't. Jiri Trnka harbor-> aqueducts.

    4 turn - 270 AD:
    nothing.

    5 turn - 280 AD:
    Greeks are building Sistine Chapel. Seems they took another research path.

    6 turn - 290 AD:
    Spain is building Sistine Chapel, Celts Sun Tzu's. Greeks are trying to get through our land with settlers, make sure you won't let it happen.

    7 turn - 300 AD:
    nothing.

    8 turn - 310 AD:
    nothing.

    9 turn - 320 AD:
    Antalya library->aqueducts

    10 turn - 330 AD:
    Giuseppe knight->knight. Engineering due in 3 turns.


    http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95852/Lo5_1_330_AD.SAV
     
  15. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    If we don't have a decent size army, we won't be able to come to Isabella's defense if Alex decides to expand south.
     
  16. Anar

    Anar Chieftain

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    We agreed that we want to use Sipahi in our warfare so we need to produce horsemen and knights.

    Btw I prefer building aqueducts and marketplaces in productive cities before I start producing military.
     
  17. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    Got it. Tomorrow morning CET...

    Disappointed with the choice to study Chivalry (no real benefit, yet delays MilTrad), but no use crying over spilled milk.

    Lo5
     
  18. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    Ah, sorry about that. I was under the impression that we were going to help spain beat up greece a little in the immediate future, and not wait until Sipahi.
     
  19. LawOfFives

    LawOfFives Chieftain

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    Couldn't play yesterday, won't be able to today, either. Please skip me, Frrosch.

    Pneuma -- no problem, let's move on and win this!

    Lo5
     
  20. frrosch

    frrosch Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
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    Location:
    Close to Nurenberg, Germany
    got it, will play this afternoon or evening
     

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