Lo5 01 - The Puppetmaster
- Thread starter LawOfFives
- Start date
TheLoneMan
The Original Reindeer
* Rax right now, or not?
IMO, depends on how quickly it can be out.
* War declaration on Greece?
No. Definitely not.
* Lit beeline?
The best of our limited options, IMHO.
* Writing via purchase, via, 50-turn or via 100% research?
Hmm... I've got an idea, might not work, so tell me what you think... We could go for zero-science, maximizing money-making while building military. Then we can give Spain an MA vs Greece, as well as however much cash is needed, for Writing and any other techs we can get.
* Brainstorming on how to help Spain when we're not so well off ourselves
Don't. Just ignore Spain, leave her room, and just make sure we're doing OK. As long as she isn't about to kill herself or make a critical mistake, we need to make sure we're in a position to help her later in the game.
* There's gotta be something more
Establish the choke point, build a fortress if we can spare a worker and stack it with defense.
IMO, depends on how quickly it can be out.
* War declaration on Greece?
No. Definitely not.
* Lit beeline?
The best of our limited options, IMHO.
* Writing via purchase, via, 50-turn or via 100% research?
Hmm... I've got an idea, might not work, so tell me what you think... We could go for zero-science, maximizing money-making while building military. Then we can give Spain an MA vs Greece, as well as however much cash is needed, for Writing and any other techs we can get.
* Brainstorming on how to help Spain when we're not so well off ourselves
Don't. Just ignore Spain, leave her room, and just make sure we're doing OK. As long as she isn't about to kill herself or make a critical mistake, we need to make sure we're in a position to help her later in the game.
* There's gotta be something more
Establish the choke point, build a fortress if we can spare a worker and stack it with defense.
LawOfFives
Chieftain
frrosch said:
Thanks for standing up to the challenge, Frrosch! As usual, I'd like to go a bit more radical on the city stuffing
, so as to maximize how many squares (including sea squares) we can squeeze out of our territory. I'd replace Blue with two other cities, one of them 1 N and the other 2 SW, in that order (that is, 1} Red, 2} "Blue A": N of Blue, 3} "Blue B": 2 SW of Blue, 4} either Green or, if the low available squares count after switching to the "blues" is too worrisome, some different square a little further away from Blue A.It may be best to found Green third and Blue B fourth instead, actually, since Blue B needs some worker, uh, work to get going.
What do y'all say?
In any case, it seems Red is uncontroversial, so if I have the task of settling in my turnset (can't remember), I'll go there.
Thanks to everyone for the advice and patience with the delay of this turnset. Will be playing this evening and delivering tomorrow morning CET.
Lo5
LawOfFives
Chieftain
OK, regarding research, we have one vote each for 0%, 50-turn, and max. Thus, I'll do whatever seems like a good idea to me at the time.
Lo5
Thus, I'll do whatever seems like a good idea to me at the time. Lo5
frrosch
Chieftain
Replacing the blue spot with 2 other cities looks ok to me, too.
TimBentley
Deity
We need an embassy for a MA, and writing for an embassy.TheLoneMan said:
I would go for writing at max (if we are beaten it will reduce the price); 50-turn research is going to have us be the last person to get it again.
TheLoneMan
The Original Reindeer
TimBentley said:
I... knew that...
LawOfFives
Chieftain
The nice thing about going 100% for Lit is that, even if we get beaten to Writing, it minimizes the time until we get at least *some* benefits. If we don't get beaten to Writing, then that's icing on the cake.
LawOfFives
Chieftain
I delayed my turnset until the end of the evening, and then suddenly out of the blue, my wife decided that sex was more important than Civilization. I didn't have the nerve to explain that I'm in a succession game (and what one is) and that my turnset is more important than sex.
Moral of the story: do turnset at the *beginning* of an evening's play next time.
Lo5
Moral of the story: do turnset at the *beginning* of an evening's play next time.
Lo5
frrosch
Chieftain
no problem Lo5.
When will you play?
When will you play?
LawOfFives
Chieftain
Tonight. I really ought to get internet connectivity at home again so things aren't delayed until the morning after every session. There are lots of other reasons as well, but hey, if it's a succession game that convinces me, so be it. :-D
Lo5
Lo5
frrosch
Chieftain
Play now! I can't wait for this going on.
LawOfFives
Chieftain
Sorry again for the extra day's unintended wait and the perhaps debatable intended one before that. Aaaand -- as the Ramones would say, rock and rock and rock and roll, let's go!
* * * * * * * *
I'd like to request that fellow puppetmasters END THEIR TURNSETS AT THE END OF THE TURN in future turnsets. This is standard practice in a lot of (most?) succession games, and I think the reasoning behind it (more convenient for pre-flight checking) is sound.
1500 BC (1): I choose Tim's suggestion since it's the most conservative and thus prudent in a crisis (which I think we're in), and my rather radical approach is what got us in trouble in the first place. In other words: I now raise the research rate to 90%.
Southern curragh southward ho!
Giuseppe abandons build of spearman -> settler, which after initial microing for max production (and a little whack-a-mole with MPs) will land very nicely at 0% overrun and 0 further micromanagement. Plus you can never have too many cities. Bursa abandons build of barracks -> warrior.
IBT: If Greece wasn't in GA before, it sure is now. :-( Edrine finishes Settler -> Worker, not necessarily final build.
1475 BC (2): Possible ATM to juggle and run 100% science, so I do. I send settler to Frrosch's Red. Unescorted. :-O
1450 BC (3): Zzz.
1425 BC (4): Curragh reveals barb camp S-SE of Giuseppe. Spanish explorer has hit the ocean; I decide to loop him back homeward.
IBT: the barbs were getting worried that we were going to ignore them, so they'd already sent out some horsies. OMG PONIEZ!! Bursa finishes warrior -> Settler.
1400 BC (5): Jiri Trnka founded at Red. Build set to Worker. I suddenly realize Giuseppe has a barracks. I still think the settler build is best, though.
IBT: Our continuing failure to build an "anti-extortion" tilted army (warriors and if possible archers rather than spearmen) plus the barb loss means YET MORE extortion. Greece this time. I chicken out. Barb warrior moves towards Jiri Trnka from the NW. Giuseppe Settler -> Warrior.
1375 BC (6) I suddenly realize I don't like the concept of not settling ANY of the even SLIGHTLY Eastern positions at all, and the Giuseppe settler is ideally sited to found this type of site, so I rebel a bit and head towards a new site at one of them. Apologies for bucking the dotmap. SW worker heads to spot that was mined but not roaded -- hope that wasn't me!
IBT: Spearman in Giuseppe kills barb horseman.
1350 BC (7): Zzz, except for last-minute change of mind on position of Selfishville.
IBT: Jiri Trnka ransacked, 17 gold lost. Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Warrior. (It's so rare to have the 5 shields level that so nicely fits Warrior/Worker builds that I hate to waste it, and a worker build would nuke it to utilize it.
1325 BC (8): I guess leaving border cities entirely undefended isn't gonna win me too many fans among the rest of the team, so the core cities send out what they can spare. The new spot for Selfishville turns out to score us a whale.
IBT: Isabella just doesn't understand me! *Sniff* (exploring warrior booted)
1300 BC (9): Selfishville founded, build set to Warrior. Temple for the whales is tempting, but probably not worth it for quite a while yet. Back to probing the depths of Isabella.
IBT: Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Settler.
1275 BC (10): Unhappiness outstrips supply of MP's, so I raise to 10% and send the spearman that that's freed up out to pop the hut on top of the future western Bluetown. Unfortunately, I send him out in the wrong direction. I blame the Wine.
**LARGE STRIP OF CURRAGH-UNSAFE COASTLINE DISCOVERED IN THE NW**. If we can't spare some suicide curraghs, we need to give Map Making a higher than usual priority. May also be galley-unsafe, though.
* * *
No overview map this time, didn't think of it. :-/
* * *
Lo5
* * * * * * * *
I'd like to request that fellow puppetmasters END THEIR TURNSETS AT THE END OF THE TURN in future turnsets. This is standard practice in a lot of (most?) succession games, and I think the reasoning behind it (more convenient for pre-flight checking) is sound.
1500 BC (1): I choose Tim's suggestion since it's the most conservative and thus prudent in a crisis (which I think we're in), and my rather radical approach is what got us in trouble in the first place. In other words: I now raise the research rate to 90%.
Southern curragh southward ho!
Giuseppe abandons build of spearman -> settler, which after initial microing for max production (and a little whack-a-mole with MPs) will land very nicely at 0% overrun and 0 further micromanagement. Plus you can never have too many cities.
Bursa abandons build of barracks -> warrior.IBT: If Greece wasn't in GA before, it sure is now. :-( Edrine finishes Settler -> Worker, not necessarily final build.
1475 BC (2): Possible ATM to juggle and run 100% science, so I do. I send settler to Frrosch's Red. Unescorted. :-O
1450 BC (3): Zzz.
1425 BC (4): Curragh reveals barb camp S-SE of Giuseppe. Spanish explorer has hit the ocean; I decide to loop him back homeward.
IBT: the barbs were getting worried that we were going to ignore them, so they'd already sent out some horsies. OMG PONIEZ!! Bursa finishes warrior -> Settler.
1400 BC (5): Jiri Trnka founded at Red. Build set to Worker. I suddenly realize Giuseppe has a barracks. I still think the settler build is best, though.
IBT: Our continuing failure to build an "anti-extortion" tilted army (warriors and if possible archers rather than spearmen) plus the barb loss means YET MORE extortion. Greece this time. I chicken out. Barb warrior moves towards Jiri Trnka from the NW. Giuseppe Settler -> Warrior.
1375 BC (6) I suddenly realize I don't like the concept of not settling ANY of the even SLIGHTLY Eastern positions at all, and the Giuseppe settler is ideally sited to found this type of site, so I rebel a bit and head towards a new site at one of them. Apologies for bucking the dotmap. SW worker heads to spot that was mined but not roaded -- hope that wasn't me!
IBT: Spearman in Giuseppe kills barb horseman.
1350 BC (7): Zzz, except for last-minute change of mind on position of Selfishville.
IBT: Jiri Trnka ransacked, 17 gold lost. Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Warrior. (It's so rare to have the 5 shields level that so nicely fits Warrior/Worker builds that I hate to waste it, and a worker build would nuke it to utilize it.
1325 BC (8): I guess leaving border cities entirely undefended isn't gonna win me too many fans among the rest of the team, so the core cities send out what they can spare. The new spot for Selfishville turns out to score us a whale.
IBT: Isabella just doesn't understand me! *Sniff* (exploring warrior booted)
1300 BC (9): Selfishville founded, build set to Warrior. Temple for the whales is tempting, but probably not worth it for quite a while yet. Back to probing the depths of Isabella.
IBT: Giuseppe finishes Warrior -> Settler.
1275 BC (10): Unhappiness outstrips supply of MP's, so I raise to 10% and send the spearman that that's freed up out to pop the hut on top of the future western Bluetown. Unfortunately, I send him out in the wrong direction. I blame the Wine.
**LARGE STRIP OF CURRAGH-UNSAFE COASTLINE DISCOVERED IN THE NW**. If we can't spare some suicide curraghs, we need to give Map Making a higher than usual priority. May also be galley-unsafe, though.
* * *
No overview map this time, didn't think of it. :-/
* * *
Lo5
frrosch
Chieftain
Shall I move immediately or is there any discussion to do?
Edit: I will have lunch first, if noone posts here the next 2 hours or so I will play, I don't think there's much to discuss about.
I just realized that the north of us is a peninsula, maybe we can manage to claim the whole north.
Galleys won't help us in the north, so I think we'll have to arrange with suicide curraghs.
Edit: I will have lunch first, if noone posts here the next 2 hours or so I will play, I don't think there's much to discuss about.
I just realized that the north of us is a peninsula, maybe we can manage to claim the whole north.
Galleys won't help us in the north, so I think we'll have to arrange with suicide curraghs.
LawOfFives
Chieftain
frrosch said:
There's one spot early on in that region with a diagonal that seemed like, with more information, it might possibly turn out to be galley-safe. I didn't examine it very closely, though, and I only mean to say that it didn't rule out the possibility of being galley-safe, not that it definitely is.
Lo5
frrosch
Chieftain
ok, I'll play right now, it got a bit later because I was "forced" to play a match of warcraft 
frrosch
Chieftain
Preturn 1275 BC:
Bit of MMing, Settler in Edrine now due in 1, switch Bursa to spear as we imo still need more military.
Lux raised to 20% for one turn so Edrine doesn't riot. Writing still done in 3.
What does our Warrior do there in Spanish territory? Will move him out asap.
IBT:
Edrine finishes Settler -> warrior (as a MP)
Bursa finishes Spear -> curragh
Turn 1 1250 BC:
Lux down to 0, Science still at 80 as it doesn't change anything if I raised it to 100 except gold loss. Now we're doing +1gpt
Northern Curragh discovers a barb village with 2 warriors and 2 horseman on the northern end of our peninsula.
Settler from Edrine moves towards Blue A.
Forgot that the spear was supposed to pop the hut, will do this as soon as there's another spare unit.
IBT:
Isabella sends the warrior out of her territory automaticly.
Turn 2 1225 BC:
Guiseppe grows to 4, warrior from Edrine moved there to prevent a riot.
A barb galley turned up next to our northern curragh. I decide to ignore it and hope that it will fail when attacking us.
Science down to 70%, Writing due in 1.
IBT:
Barb galley attacks, loses, our curragh loses no live and gets promoted to veteran.
Writing done. Science on 100% Literature, due in 14 at -3gpt. Maybe we'll have to turn down to 90 or even 80 percent.
Turn 3 1200 BC:
Sell Writing to the Greeks for Maths, Mysticism and 70 gold.
Buy the Wheel and Warrior Code from the Spaniards for Writing and 64 gold. Now both are gracious.
The Greeks are Horsebackriding and Polytheism ahead, the Spanish only HBR.
IBT:
The Greeks found Pharsalos north of the Spanish.
Warrior finished in Edrine, Edrine grows to 4. Starts a new settler.
Selfishville finishes Warrior -> Worker
Turn 4 1175 BC:
Nothing except moving.
IBT:
Bursa curragh -> granary
Jiri Trnka worker -> worker
Turn 5 1150 BC:
Found Izmit on Blue A. Starts worker as we will need them to chop all this jungle.
The curragh from Bursa will try to pass the sea in the north.
Ah, by the way we got no horses on the entire peninsula. There are some 5SE of Guiseppe but if we settled there that would mean "stealing" space from the spanish.
The northern curragh spots another island we can reach without problems.
IBT:
Guiseppe finishes Settler, starts another one.
The greeks start building the oracle.
Turn 6 1125 BC:
Spear pops the hut on Blue B, gets attacked
The new island in the north seems to be not bigger than 6 or 7 tiles. Theres a goody hut on it.
IBT:
On the island a celtish settler turns up. Seems like I was wrong.
Spear kills attacking barb, gets promoted (3/4 HP).
Warrior kills attacking barb (3/4 HP).
Bursa riots because I forgot that it would when I moved out the warrior to kill the barb.
Turn 7 1100 BC:
southern curragh descovers a barb village and 5 barb galleys. Probably will be lost this turn.
Celtia is Polytheism and HBR ahead of us but lacks the alphabet.
I buy HBR for alphabet and 23 gold.
Then I sell them Writing and Maths for Poly and 48 gold (all they have). They got Ivory and 6 cities.
I sell the spanish Polytheism for 250 gold. Now everyones on the same tech level and everyone has 6 cities, except Spain, they got 4
IBT:
Our curragh gets killed by the first barb galley.
Edrine grows to 5
Turn 8 1075 BC:
The "small island" turns out to be a continent, maybe even the same we are on.
Lux to 20% so Edrine won't riot. MM a bit so settler is due in 2.
IBT:
Selfishville finishes Worker, starts Temple to get the whale.
Turn 9 1050 BC:
Worker finishes road so a second wine and Jiri Trnka is connected. starts a mine.
Aydin founded on Blue B.
The celts got philosophy and monarchy
IBT:
Iron gets connected.
Edrine finishes settler -> spear.
Turn 10 1025 BC:
Nothing much.
--------------------------
Save, Screenshots and comments in the next post.
Bit of MMing, Settler in Edrine now due in 1, switch Bursa to spear as we imo still need more military.
Lux raised to 20% for one turn so Edrine doesn't riot. Writing still done in 3.
What does our Warrior do there in Spanish territory? Will move him out asap.
IBT:
Edrine finishes Settler -> warrior (as a MP)
Bursa finishes Spear -> curragh
Turn 1 1250 BC:
Lux down to 0, Science still at 80 as it doesn't change anything if I raised it to 100 except gold loss. Now we're doing +1gpt
Northern Curragh discovers a barb village with 2 warriors and 2 horseman on the northern end of our peninsula.
Settler from Edrine moves towards Blue A.
Forgot that the spear was supposed to pop the hut, will do this as soon as there's another spare unit.
IBT:
Isabella sends the warrior out of her territory automaticly.
Turn 2 1225 BC:
Guiseppe grows to 4, warrior from Edrine moved there to prevent a riot.
A barb galley turned up next to our northern curragh. I decide to ignore it and hope that it will fail when attacking us.
Science down to 70%, Writing due in 1.
IBT:
Barb galley attacks, loses, our curragh loses no live and gets promoted to veteran.
Writing done. Science on 100% Literature, due in 14 at -3gpt. Maybe we'll have to turn down to 90 or even 80 percent.
Turn 3 1200 BC:
Sell Writing to the Greeks for Maths, Mysticism and 70 gold.
Buy the Wheel and Warrior Code from the Spaniards for Writing and 64 gold. Now both are gracious.
The Greeks are Horsebackriding and Polytheism ahead, the Spanish only HBR.
IBT:
The Greeks found Pharsalos north of the Spanish.
Warrior finished in Edrine, Edrine grows to 4. Starts a new settler.
Selfishville finishes Warrior -> Worker
Turn 4 1175 BC:
Nothing except moving.
IBT:
Bursa curragh -> granary
Jiri Trnka worker -> worker
Turn 5 1150 BC:
Found Izmit on Blue A. Starts worker as we will need them to chop all this jungle.
The curragh from Bursa will try to pass the sea in the north.
Ah, by the way we got no horses on the entire peninsula. There are some 5SE of Guiseppe but if we settled there that would mean "stealing" space from the spanish.
The northern curragh spots another island we can reach without problems.
IBT:
Guiseppe finishes Settler, starts another one.
The greeks start building the oracle.
Turn 6 1125 BC:
Spear pops the hut on Blue B, gets attacked
The new island in the north seems to be not bigger than 6 or 7 tiles. Theres a goody hut on it.
IBT:
On the island a celtish settler turns up. Seems like I was wrong.
Spear kills attacking barb, gets promoted (3/4 HP).
Warrior kills attacking barb (3/4 HP).
Bursa riots because I forgot that it would when I moved out the warrior to kill the barb.
Turn 7 1100 BC:
southern curragh descovers a barb village and 5 barb galleys. Probably will be lost this turn.
Celtia is Polytheism and HBR ahead of us but lacks the alphabet.
I buy HBR for alphabet and 23 gold.
Then I sell them Writing and Maths for Poly and 48 gold (all they have). They got Ivory and 6 cities.
I sell the spanish Polytheism for 250 gold. Now everyones on the same tech level and everyone has 6 cities, except Spain, they got 4
IBT:
Our curragh gets killed by the first barb galley.
Edrine grows to 5
Turn 8 1075 BC:
The "small island" turns out to be a continent, maybe even the same we are on.
Lux to 20% so Edrine won't riot. MM a bit so settler is due in 2.
IBT:
Selfishville finishes Worker, starts Temple to get the whale.
Turn 9 1050 BC:
Worker finishes road so a second wine and Jiri Trnka is connected. starts a mine.
Aydin founded on Blue B.
The celts got philosophy and monarchy
IBT:
Iron gets connected.
Edrine finishes settler -> spear.
Turn 10 1025 BC:
Nothing much.
--------------------------
Save, Screenshots and comments in the next post.
frrosch
Chieftain
Ok, here we go:
I think there's nothing to add, now I'm quite sure it's one continent, which would probably mean that celts and greeks know each other.
That's where I'd go with the curragh.
And then, I got an idea, just say what you think about it: We could build a city on one of the 3 dots in the following screenshot, preferably the blue one. This would (with a temple) give us control over the iron and the horses. The horses would be for us, and, now the idea: As the spanish as far as I know don't have a own iron, we could either gift or sell it to them. As a consequence, they would like us more and were a kind of dependent of us, what could be an advantage. I didn't really work this out, but I think it could be good.
Ah, before I forget it, an overview over our little empire. I don't have the nerves to do a dotmap now, maybe later.
I think there's nothing to add, now I'm quite sure it's one continent, which would probably mean that celts and greeks know each other.
That's where I'd go with the curragh.
And then, I got an idea, just say what you think about it: We could build a city on one of the 3 dots in the following screenshot, preferably the blue one. This would (with a temple) give us control over the iron and the horses. The horses would be for us, and, now the idea: As the spanish as far as I know don't have a own iron, we could either gift or sell it to them. As a consequence, they would like us more and were a kind of dependent of us, what could be an advantage. I didn't really work this out, but I think it could be good.
Ah, before I forget it, an overview over our little empire. I don't have the nerves to do a dotmap now, maybe later.
frrosch
Chieftain
Ah, now I forgot another thing: Maybe we could build embassys with all the gold we have, at least in the spanish capital.
LawOfFives
Chieftain
Frrosch said:
I explore folks' territory without ROP all the time in single-player. If anything, constantly getting booted can be an advantage, in the cases where it amounts to useful points of free movement. The attitude penalties from being asked to leave/being booted are very temporary.
We haven't named any units so far all game, and naming units seems to be a succession-game tradition. If we start, that band of spearmen looks like it's on its way to earning the title of "The Winos."
That's a lot of use to have been getting out of writing considering we started next to two Alphabet civs! I wonder if the AI decides for Mathematics over Writing more frequently/always if it's at war? In any case, the Spaniards currently have the additional research difficulty of having been totally screwed over all around. :-(
**IMO We should invest in a Spanish embassy ASAP.**
Discussion: do we want monarchy? It looks like a monarchy-literature trade will be the fastest way out of Despotism this game, but will we be doing enough early warring to justify the sacrifice of not switching somewhat later to Republic and staying there all game? I don't think so, but what do other people think?
The Spanish have started it too, by the way, during my turnset.
I like the idea in general. I think the Spanish still have enough lebensraum; actually, what they need is not more lebensraum, but a cattle prod to make them use it. :-/ The way things are going, it wouldn't be the Spanish that would take that space, but rather the Greeks.
Does right-clicking the blue one show any gold income? I can never remember the rules for that kind of position. If it's not on the river, I'd say either one of the other two dots, or 1NW of Blue. I like blue and green for nabbing us the horses without a temple, as it's better not to have to build one quickly. (Assuming Game's 1st Horses are more important than Game's 2nd Iron.) I like "NW of Blue" because it appeals to my tight-settlement fetish
I don't like red at all -- 2 spaces from a very nice bit of coast, not on river, needs temple for the horses, don't see the quick access to the iron as important as it will take some time to hook up to Spain in any case.Lo5
Edit: rewrote reaction to dotmap based on a couple of realizations, added reactions to all the dots.
