Logic behind the time restrictions for HOF

[superslug]

I have no gripes with reloading as a strategy in casual games, but here I'd like to think the participants are rolling with the punches and not relying on winning a 12% combat.

Amen. Hall of Fame players typically rely more on their mental capacity and strategic prowress than simply having too much time on their hands.

 

[RemoWilliams]

I don't think he was suggesting he was going to submit it to the HoF, just that he was going to do a write up about a Deity win. As long as his strategy doesn't depend on reloading, i'd be interested to read it. If his strategy is "reload until you win the battle", well, yeah, that's pointless and non-interesting.

I think 99.999% of us agree that reloading doesn't belong in the HoF, no point in everybody saying "I agree".

 

[Shadowsong]

If you want a "legal" game just look at that Deity conquest on large by Shadowsong. That's a game I'd like to a writeup on.

You want a write-up? It's basically the anarchy tactic.

 

[Kalleyao]

You want a write-up? It's basically the anarchy tactic.

Ok, I'll check your logs.

 

[VirusMonster]

Read my last post in the strategy forum where I discuss about how to make my strategy less luck dependent and more aimed for a competitive HOF game.

This strategy works under HOF rules well too, you just need to produce a bit more quechuas, and it is possible if you settle your first city on a plains/hill and work your 1 citizen on a forest/hill tile.

Basically, I answered all of your concerns on the strategy forums and I think the strategy rox and is one of the best, if not the best way to beat huge deity map without exploits. Entries in the old HOF used anarchy exploit to beat huge maps. I am playing very fair and in the spirit of HOF rules. I try save/reloading to learn and not to cheat common folk here.

If I did not play Incas, I would try an axeman rush with Washington.

 

[VirusMonster]

Sumerex,

I discuss the combat odds I take in detail in my post. Obviously, you haven't read it and talk about %12 precentages.

4 quechuas can kill 2 archers and take the capital despite the +20% defense bonus. If you can't do it, play 4-5games simultaneously and stick with the one where you succeed.

Read the 500k points domination win article where the player admits, he would restart the game if his venture with the huts did not yield him sufficient workers, settlers, and techs.

I attack the enemy capital by the 30th turn with 4 quechuas. You could alternatively attack the city with no cultural defense and level up your quechuas first. After you capture your inital city, you can capture additional cities much easier with 2 quechuas who have combat I, city raider I and cover. Sacrifice the unexperienced quechuas first and let the strong quechua fight vs a damaged archer.

Strategy works, go try it

 

[Shadowsong]

Basically, I answered all of your concerns on the strategy forums and I think the strategy rox and is one of the best, if not the best way to beat huge deity map without exploits. Entries in the old HOF used anarchy exploit to beat huge maps.

The anarchy tactic is an excellent strategy, IMO actually the best for Deity Conquest in Larger map sizes. Regarding your strategy, I suspect you won't be fast enough to conquer before the AIs get Axemen. Even Chariots would be enough to destroy your Quechas.

 

[VirusMonster]

You would be surprised to observe that with 17 civilizations only very few have horse and copper resources. I attack the ones who don't have it.

I stay peaceful with all enemies and adopt their religion to avoid fighting.

 

[Shadowsong]

You would be surprised to observe that with 17 civilizations only very few have horse and copper resources. I attack the ones who don't have it.

I stay peaceful with all enemies and adopt their religion to avoid fighting.

Then the question is: How do you continue? I strongly doubt Domination is possible after the remaining AIs have accessed those resources.

 

[VirusMonster]

I am writing that part of the strategy atm, but in short, I continue expanding at a %30 tech rate to achieve 2x city count of my closest rival. Additionally, I send a stack of quechuas to capture a holy city building of buddism, hinduism or judaism whichever religion has most cities. If they still did not build the holy city building, I wait until it is built. After that point I switch to the most common religion and wait an attack from an aggressive civ or from a civ whose religion is different than mine. In the mean time, I have axeman coming out from barracks.

I don't think early domination is possible either. I am playing to win via any victory condition and don't expect a high score.

Anarchy exploit does not work anymore with the 1.61 HOF mod, does it?

 

[Dianthus]

Anarchy exploit does not work anymore with the 1.61 HOF mod, does it?

Nothing to do with the HOF mod. It was fixed in the 1.61 patch.

 

[A_Turkish_Guy]

I am writing that part of the strategy atm, ......

eheheh.i tried that after the MSN talk.it is working perfect.and i think it will be the most important tactic for huge maps.

 

[Denniz]

Read my last post in the strategy forum where I discuss about how to make my strategy less luck dependent and more aimed for a competitive HOF game.

This strategy works under HOF rules well too, you just need to produce a bit more quechuas, and it is possible if you settle your first city on a plains/hill and work your 1 citizen on a forest/hill tile.

Basically, I answered all of your concerns on the strategy forums and I think the strategy rox and is one of the best, if not the best way to beat huge deity map without exploits. Entries in the old HOF used anarchy exploit to beat huge maps. I am playing very fair and in the spirit of HOF rules. I try save/reloading to learn and not to cheat common folk here.

If I did not play Incas, I would try an axeman rush with Washington.

I took a look a your strategy forum thread...

... If you are really unlucky to fail in all 5 games, then load up the first game assuming 1 hour has already passed thus satisfying the HOF rules and try again attacking the city next turn...

From this last quote, I am afraid that you have failed to grasp even the spirit of the HOF rules.

Reloading for the purpose of replaying even a single move is against the HOF rules. Waiting a hour between illegal attempts does not make it okay. It is merely an attempt to hide the illegal activity. (The hour or half hour suggested session length is meant to deter reloading activity by making it, I don't know, more "boring", for someone trying to use save/reload to replay events.)

The spirit of the Hall of Fame is to celebrate the best results done without resorting to reloading and replaying or using other exploits to gain an unfair advantage. (And please, nobody needs bring up the anarchy exploit. It was fixed in 1.61 and none of those games will make it into the permanent HOF. )

If someone with better communication skills than mine , would care to take a crack a better way to word this, you won't hurt my feelings.

 

[Conroe]

I think you may have misread VirusMonster's statement. I know I certainly did the first time I saw it. He is not advocating that you wait an hour to replay the same turn, but rather wait an hour before loading the earlier save to play the next turn.

In other words, if your assault on the city fails the first time that you try, the defenders have probably been weakened enough that the city will fall on the next turn.

At least, that's the way that I read it.

 

[Denniz]

I think you may have misread VirusMonster's statement. I know I certainly did the first time I saw it. He is not advocating that you wait an hour to replay the same turn, but rather wait an hour before loading the earlier save to play the next turn.

In other words, if your assault on the city fails the first time that you try, the defenders have probably been weakened enough that the city will fall on the next turn.

At least, that's the way that I read it.

You could be right. If so, I apologize. I guess all the talk of saving and reloading makes me nervous.

Why not just play the next turn, immediately. One minute and you will know whether you can continue or abandon. No need to wait an hour.

 

[The-Hawk]

If someone with better communication skills than mine , would care to take a crack a better way to word this, you won't hurt my feelings.

I think you said it very well.

It's all about honor isn't it? The people who submit to HOF (and GOTM) need to be willing to follow an honor system. Otherwise, the whole concept falls apart. It would be like buying a gold medal in a pawn shop and claiming you won an olympic race. Where's the satisfaction in that?

The feeling of satisfaction of winning at deity without cheats or exploits is tremendous. Well worth the trouble of learning to play the game well and earn it. I honestly feel bad for people who cheat themselves of this opportunity by looking for a "short cut".

I think you may have misread VirusMonster's statement.

Actually, based on some of VirusMonster's earlier posts, I think Denniz did inteprete it correctly. I will say that VirusMonster's later posts suggest he/she is coming around and focusing on developing a strategy that doesn't require save/reload to work.

 

[superslug]

It's all about honor isn't it? The people who submit to HOF (and GOTM) need to be willing to follow an honor system. Otherwise, the whole concept falls apart.

I can't totally agree with the "falls apart" bit. Having an active staff refereeing the environment does catch/prevent a lot of malicious submissions. And at the risk of sounding arrogant, I think our work is more effective than an honor system by itself would be.

On the other hand, I'm glad to see there's so much honor esteemed in the HOF. For one, it makes our jobs that much easier. It also makes it a better venue to compete in on a personal level.

 

[Conroe]

Actually, based on some of VirusMonster's earlier posts, I think Denniz did inteprete it correctly. I will say that VirusMonster's later posts suggest he/she is coming around and focusing on developing a strategy that doesn't require save/reload to work.

In a way, you are correct. I really have no clue what VirusMonster's truly meant to say in the sentence that Denniz quoted. And it is definitely not my place to put words into his mouth.

try again attacking the city next turn

The emphasis was added by me. Does he mean (1) load an earlier save and play the next turn, or does he mean (2) reload the save and play the same turn again? Only VirusMonster can answer that question.

From that same post, though, he makes the following statement which implies that he understands the concept.

I am very positive that with a mass quechua build it is possible even under HOF rules.

But, statements such as this one (in the very same post) say otherwise ...

but it is easy to adjust my use of save reloading with the current HOF rules.

Again, emphasis added by me. But what is there to adjust? You cannot do it! Period! Nothing to adjust!

 

[The-Hawk]

Having an active staff refereeing the environment does catch/prevent a lot of malicious submissions. And at the risk of sounding arrogant, I think our work is more effective than an honor system by itself would be.

I agree 100%... and the work of the staff is greatly appreciated. I'm on the "gray end" of the age demographic on this board, been around WAY too long to think everyone is honorable all the time. Besides, I suspect you see... ummmmm... a fair number of invalid submissions from honest people who don't completely read the rules. Matter of fact, IIRC my first HOF submission fell into this category .

 

[superslug]

I agree 100%... and the work of the staff is greatly appreciated.

And it's always great to hear that. Thank you.

I'm on the "gray end" of the age demographic on this board, been around WAY too long to think everyone is honorable all the time.

If your profile is right about your age, you are hardly on the gray end of the demographic. We've had at least two 80+ players active on the boards at some point in the last several years. Quit whinin' about your age, young'un!

Besides, I suspect you see... ummmmm... a fair number of invalid submissions from honest people who don't completely read the rules. Matter of fact, IIRC my first HOF submission fell into this category .

The overwhelming majority of unacceptable submissions are indeed such, mistakes, accidents, etc, etc. We actually had to toss one of my own games in III because I forgot to Preserve Random Seed!

We do see very little actual cheating, and that is a serious testament to the honor of the players.