Looks like the AI is still poor in Rise and Fall.

[Ferocitus]

You still failed to address the point as you rationalized the actions of the publisher / developer.

Why don't gamers hold developers / publishers to a higher standard?

I hold them to a very high standard, at the end of development.

Why are you denying me the opportunity to see the game early in development,
when it is at a standard that I'm happy to pay for but you are not?

 

[MooFreaky]

You still failed to address the point as you rationalized the actions of the publisher / developer.

Why don't gamers hold developers / publishers to a higher standard?

Gamers hold developers to higher standards than ever before. Gamers don't tolerate an extensive list of things without voicing it loudly, or simply not purchasing products. Gamers expect completely polished products out of the box, and games that actually don't provide a high degree of polish often collapse rapidly. Whereas the games from the past that people hold to super high regard (games like Dune2, SMAC, MoO2) were actually just as, if not more, broken/glitched/poorly designed than current games while being vastly simpler.

People completely overlook that there is a balance that needs to take place. Games are ridiculously more expensive to make than they have ever been, while still selling for the same retail cost as decades ago. Instead of one or two guys developing a game, it is teams in multiple fields, with millions spent on marketing, etc etc. All while costing the same price as those old titles did.
So game development is a low profit, high risk market which means publishers are tight with money and thus developers get limited. Developers often need a viable income stream (ie DLC) to compensate for some of the costs to get the money they need in the first place. This means that developers can't always pay for everything, so they are forced to aim for the crowd that makes the most money, the casual gamer. They aren't going to be as bothered about the AI not being perfect, as they aren't going to be winning on diety difficulty anyways. So something that is costs quite a bit, but has little return on investment won't be as high on the list.

It sucks, but developers are often tied by their publisher and publishers aren't going to risk their money on things that are too risky. Which is why developers like EA have taken over the market by investing in low risk franchises that can release a new game every year, while the more creative developers have gone bust when they had a single failure of a game. So unless gamers are willing to pay 50%-100% more than they do now on games (which would still be a better value for how much time is pent playing them) then the risk averse nature of the market will continue.

Yes, but the introduction of more cartoony characters together with already cartoony art style made me worried that the game will deflect in the wrong direction. Ages and governors make the game more rpg than competition. But it might be only my perception

The art style of each game is often met with criticism upon release. Eventually it goes quiet as people get used to it. Then, once the next game is out everyone pines for the art style that was just lost.
There was so much hate for Civ5's art style initially. It was often said the game was trying to be too realistic and should stick to being a 4X game, rather than trying to appeal to a new generation of gamers who need realistic graphics. The cycle will repeat itself when Civ7 comes out, I have no doubt.

 

[Thormodr]

Great post, MooFreaky.

You nailed it on the head. They want games for $50 when, with inflation, a AAA game should cost about $100 nowadays.

It is not cost effective to build an excellent AI. That’s the reality.

I’ll settle for competent and I’m confident that the Civ VI AI will be competent eventually. Hopefully some modders can help them out as they’ve done with previous iterations.

 

[Xur]

He didn't nail anything on the head. In the early days pirating games on floppy disks were rampant, so the only difference is that they actually make money now with steam and other DRM. When I started playing games, there wasn't even a retailer selling games in my area.

• It has never been easier to make money out of games.
• It has never been easier to publish games.
• It has never been easier to make games.
• It has never been easier to buy games.
• Tech gets better, and people dont invent the wheel all over every time they make a game.

It is naive to just look at inflation and say that games should cost 100$. By your reasoning movies should also cost more? I pay the same for a ticket at the cimema as I did in the 90's. The gaming industry has evolved and rivals the cinema industry.

Ironically you'll end up paying 100$ anyway before civ6 is any good. Back in the day games had to work out of the box because you couldn't just patch it over the internet. You got a game that didn't require several expansions to be good... so yea, missed that nail pretty hard.

 

[MooFreaky]

He didn't nail anything on the head. In the early days pirating games on floppy disks were rampant, so the only difference is that they actually make money now with steam and other DRM. When I started playing games, there wasn't even a retailer selling games in my area.

• It has never been easier to make money out of games.
• It has never been easier to publish games.
• It has never been easier to make games.
• It has never been easier to buy games.
• Tech gets better, and people dont invent the wheel all over every time they make a game.

It is naive to just look at inflation and say that games should cost 100$. By your reasoning movies should also cost more? I pay the same for a ticket at the cimema as I did in the 90's. The gaming industry has evolved and rivals the cinema industry.

Ironically you'll end up paying 100$ anyway before civ6 is any good. Back in the day games had to work out of the box because you couldn't just patch it over the internet. You got a game that didn't require several expansions to be good... so yea, missed that nail pretty hard.

There have been so many gaming developers going under over the years. As games have gotten more complex the risk has skyrocketed.
You're right games make more money now, but that it revenue and not profit. As a ROI game development is riskier than it has ever been, because you are having to outlay such a high amount of money, meaning you need extremely high sales to make a profit. That income is also split more ways than ever, with publishers, developers, marketing etc all taking slices that never happened in the past. So while there is a bigger market, the returns needed are so extreme by comparison to the past.
It is easy to publish games? Only if they are small games. Anything else is actually very hard to get published as it requires getting big money to get started. Games like Civ and Crusader Kings are small times games by comparison to the big boys, so unless you are an indie developer making a small game it is hard going. Even then indie developers go under with incredible frequency.

Tech is getting better, but that isn't a simple step forward every time. There is a constant learning process where things regularly need to go back to square one as developers attempt to get the new technologies doing what they want. Just adding onto old methods often doesn't work at all, or if it does can be incredibly inefficient.


Your comparison with cinema tickets doesn't work. Cinema prices did go up steadily in most places, before falling again as they adapted to the current market. Cinemas don't make most of their money from ticket sales, it comes from the candy bar. And candy bar prices have sky rocketed.

 

[Thormodr]

He didn't nail anything on the head. In the early days pirating games on floppy disks were rampant, so the only difference is that they actually make money now with steam and other DRM. When I started playing games, there wasn't even a retailer selling games in my area.

• It has never been easier to make money out of games.
• It has never been easier to publish games.
• It has never been easier to make games.
• It has never been easier to buy games.
• Tech gets better, and people dont invent the wheel all over every time they make a game.

It is naive to just look at inflation and say that games should cost 100$. By your reasoning movies should also cost more? I pay the same for a ticket at the cimema as I did in the 90's. The gaming industry has evolved and rivals the cinema industry.

Ironically you'll end up paying 100$ anyway before civ6 is any good. Back in the day games had to work out of the box because you couldn't just patch it over the internet. You got a game that didn't require several expansions to be good... so yea, missed that nail pretty hard.

Just your opinion, of course, and you are looking at the past with rose coloured glasses.

Games nowadays are multiple degrees more complex. The business model has changed.

Shareholders demand more and more profit. Developers are beholden to them, sadly.

Times have changed. You can live in the past but it won’t do you any good.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

By your reasoning movies should also cost more? I pay the same for a ticket at the cimema as I did in the 90's. The gaming industry has evolved and rivals the cinema industry.

Off topic, (sorry, cba with the rest of this discussion, life's too short) but whaaaat! This makes me mad! I pay at least 3, probably 4 times more than I used to at the cinema. It's fantastically expensive, sometimes as much as going to the theatre, madness I tells ya.

Carry on.

 

[bbbt]

It is naive to just look at inflation and say that games should cost 100$. By your reasoning movies should also cost more? I pay the same for a ticket at the cimema as I did in the 90's. The gaming industry has evolved and rivals the cinema industry.

Ironically you'll end up paying 100$ anyway before civ6 is any good. Back in the day games had to work out of the box because you couldn't just patch it over the internet. You got a game that didn't require several expansions to be good... so yea, missed that nail pretty hard.

What? Ticket prices have doubled since the 90s: http://www.natoonline.org/data/ticket-price/

And all but the first Civ have had expansions.

 

[Zuizgond]

Once the game is feature complete, the code will be released.

So it means the game is still in beta. Agreed.

 

[Disgustipated]

Gamers expect completely polished products out of the box, and games that actually don't provide a high degree of polish often collapse rapidly. Whereas the games from the past that people hold to super high regard (games like Dune2, SMAC, MoO2) were actually just as, if not more, broken/glitched/poorly designed than current games while being vastly simpler.

Yeah I think of what happened with Mass Effect: Andromeda. Though it wasn't necessarily bugs that did that game in (though there were countless graphical bugs), but poor gameplay, dialogue, story, and role playing (pretty much everything LOL). The fans didn't "let them get away with it", they were slammed for a poor game.

I just wanted to mention SMAC because I've played a few games lately, and I still play at least once a year. Such a fantastic game. But it has its bugs as well. But generally the AI can be a threat in that game, but it isn't hampered by one unit per tile (which I still consider a failure). But the AI can easily be exploited as well. It's so easy to goad the AI into war so I don't take the diplomatic hit for declaring war. The game has huge balance issues which can be exploited by the human, but oh are those issues so much fun (I'm looking at you crawlers and needlejets).

Back on topic, from what I've seen in yesterdays streams, AI problems are the same as they were before.

 

[Xur]

What? Ticket prices have doubled since the 90s: http://www.natoonline.org/data/ticket-price/

And all but the first Civ have had expansions.

Everyone doesn’t live in the US.........

 

[bbbt]

Everyone doesn’t live in the US.........

I'm aware of that, but the Firaxis does.

 

[Xur]

I'm aware of that, but the Firaxis does.

And they sell movie tickets? Getting a bit silly now...

 

[bbbt]

And they sell movie tickets? Getting a bit silly now...

No - to the point of your original post, in the US, where Firaxis pays wages, inflation has been about 50% since the 90s. Movie tickets have risen in the US more that the cost of inflation. Computer game prices have not, and may even be cheaper compared to inflation than were in the 90s.