Loot Boxes - A UK call for evidence

[sherbz]

If you or someone you know has been affected by loot boxes or gambling in games, then i would encourage you to fill out the form linked on this page. The Department of Culture, Media and Sport has called for evidence from the public. So input would be appreciated. Hopefully with a concerted effort we can either get them banned or regulated as gambling, which they clearly are.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/loot-boxes-in-video-games-call-for-evidence

Obviously this is only open to people from the UK. Stories like the following are becoming all too frequent. And i worry about young people and the games that they play. The NHS has set up a dedicated clinic to help kids who have become gambling addicts. And a lot of this starts in the games they play.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gambling-addict-kids-losing-up-22900268#comments-sectionhttps://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gambling-addict-kids-losing-up-22900268#comments-section

 

[Kyriakos]

Is this about gambling games-within-other-games?
For example, enter a contest in some MMO, and win credits/stuff which matter in the game world.

There were a few cases of smart thinking by kids that managed to make some pretty coin out of such scams, taking advantage of game mechanics to cover up the rigged game ^_^

 

[amadeus]

Kind of like a combination of baseball cards and those 1-900 phone numbers where you could talk to Santa Claus (but get your parents’ permission first!)*

Is it gambling? Ehhh, I don’t know. But do we need more regulation than there already is if the kids are stealing their parents’ credit cards? Maybe the parents ought to do a little better job of not letting their kids get hold of them, or raise them not to steal from their parents.

Spoiler * :

WINK WINK

 

[sherbz]

Primarily its concerning things like Loot boxes. Mostly in EA sports titles like Fifa Ultimate team. But they have also appeared in other titles as well. And they are awash in the mobile market. Basically power in the game is gated behind a randomised reward which you purchase with real world money. Even for adults this is exploitative. But the fact these games are played by millions of kids is inexcusable. Stuff like this simply should not be allowed:

I know plenty of people who play games because they see gaming as a much safer alternative to gambling. And they are angry at the seeping monetisation that you see in games these days because companies are pushing the same buttons that can lead to addiction problems.

 

[Bamspeedy]

So if the 'loot box' was not a random reward, but a clearly defined reward, it's not gambling. But the kids will be bugging their parents for (or stealing from them) 'game money' just as badly.

 

[Kyriakos]

That's not new, though. I mean game cards (eg for football) were the same: the kid felt they had to buy more so as to trade for missing cards.
I thought this was about scams in gambling games-within-MMOs, which are more interesting (and at times a bit cerebral) ^_^

 

[Bamspeedy]

That's not new, though. I mean game cards (eg for football) were the same: the kid felt they had to buy more so as to trade for missing cards.
I thought this was about scams in gambling games-within-MMOs, which are more interesting (and at times a bit cerebral) ^_^

Football/baseball cards eventually you would get a full set, you wouldn't spend 50,000 on it, and soon you just wouldn't have room for them. Electronic game rewards can go through cash quicker, no trading value, but at least storage is not a problem....

You want to spend money to give yourself stuff in a game fine, you spend real life cash to get game cash and use the game cash to get your game character stuff. But when the stuff you are buying is random, then it's gambling (whether the random reward is at the point of when you give the real cash, or after you buy a loot box with the game cash, but I imagine that's a loophole that will be exploited or challenged).

My kids bug me for Robux for Roblox. We only gave them some robux once ($10), but anyone know if that game has loot box type things they can buy with their Robux?

 

[sherbz]

That's not new, though. I mean game cards (eg for football) were the same: the kid felt they had to buy more so as to trade for missing cards.
I thought this was about scams in gambling games-within-MMOs, which are more interesting (and at times a bit cerebral) ^_^

The difference with card packs is that you actually got a physical card which had a monetary value, albeit a small one (and you could of course swap them). Loot boxes are different because the rewards have no value at all. At least not in a real world sense (i know that some digital items or skins can sell for thousands of dollars, but these transactions take place outside of the game economy - i.e. its not the developer of the game who is selling them). Their value is primarily related to the game and how powerful or good you can become at it. And its exploitative. See the below patent from Activision as an example of how this is so:

In this example the matching algorithm intentionally matches you against someone you stand a good chance of losing against because of a certain item/card. Then it offers you the chance of obtaining the same item. Then if you acquire it it matches you against someone who does not have it.

Its also been proven that unpacking videos of streamers who open up multiple packs of an in game lootbox have the rate at which legendary or epic cards appear in their packs increased, in some cases exponentially. The insinuation is that the company has doctored their packs (many streamers receive their packs for free from the developers) to make those rare cards appear. But if you went out and bought the same number of packs you would not get anywhere near what they got unless you are obscenely lucky.

 

[EnglishEdward]

@sherbz

I am supportive of abolishing such.

I regard the targeting of children or vulnerable adults to order things using other people's credit cards
or phone bills etc as shameful fraud, and would like to see some corporate executives in gaol for it.

 

[amadeus]

Loot boxes are different because the rewards have no value at all.

If the outcome of a game is always the lose condition, then how is it gambling?

 

[sherbz]

Just some info for those interested. The late TB talking about loot boxes and gambling (he addresses the point about card packs and how they are different):

And for the history of the loot box and the man responsible:

 

[Bugfatty300]

30 years later...I still have my cards. I can sell them for cash, use them as kindling in a survival situation, put them in my bike spokes, wipe my butt with them, etc.

Gamers' "winnings" are on a server awaiting deletion along with the entire game itself. You don't "win" or "buy" anything. It's all dopamine reward addiction exploitation designed to drain bank accounts to fund billion dollar yachts and pedophile rape islands to sail them to. No different than meth and opium dealers.

Power to the player played!

 

[Lexicus]

I regard the targeting of children or vulnerable adults to order things using other people's credit cards
or phone bills etc as shameful fraud, and would like to see some corporate executives in gaol for it.

"And that's why I vote Tory"

 

[Kyriakos]

Iirc, some cards (in material card packs, such as in the 80s-90s) were virtually impossible to get, but the "game" there was to get all cards so as to fill pages in some album and send the complete collection to the company (usually Panini) to collect some prize.
So in that sense... it was also sort of a scam. As long as you actually cared about "winning", anyway.

And while the cards only mattered within the specific game, it wasn't unusual to see kids trade them for all sorts of stuff (other, unrelated cards, other toys etc).

 

[Angst]

The problem isn't necessarily that loot boxes are gambling, but that they're mostly unregulated gambling. Gambling outside video games is heavily regulated to counteract its predatory aspects.

I'm reasonably OK with trading cards and such. You keep and own the cards you buy. You don't own anything when buying video games, but the license to use them. This is important especially in online economies that can be shut down at any point. This fact combined with the fact that video game gambling is unregulated is a very toxic combination.

 

[Kyriakos]

Can other players sell stuff to you? That seems to be where the real money would be made.
And imagine the possibilities if you are also a company employee with some tech abilities ($$$)
If it can't be traced back to you, I'd try it. Would only regret getting away with $100.000 if it led to a suicide.

(more seriously, taking 100.000 from a single person would certainly be too immoral for me ^_^ Then again I think people sell game stuff - armor, weapons etc- for thousands of dollars online).

 

[sherbz]

Can other players sell stuff to you? That seems to be where the real money would be made.
And imagine the possibilities if you are also a company employee with some tech abilities ($$$)
If it can't be traced back to you, I'd try it. Would only regret getting away with $100.000 if it led to a suicide.

(more seriously, taking 100.000 from a single person would certainly be too immoral for me ^_^ Then again I think people sell game stuff - armor, weapons etc- for thousands of dollars online).

Its not really about the money individual users can make. Its about how much the developer of these titles makes off a tiny fraction of their audience. So called Whales - users who make up around 5% of the audience, but who spend literally thousands of dollars on microtransactions in order to become powerful within the game world. Sometimes the level of spend can be obscene. A user in Transformers Earth Wars, for example, spent $150,000 on in game items https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...t-the-problem-with-free-to-play-games-opinion). And the trouble is that this is all unregulated. Theres no breaks or rules. Companies are literally free to try and milk these people for as much as they please. Which is in stark contrast to bookmakers, who have restrictions placed upon them. Someone who is spending that sort of money needs an intervention and help. They certainly dont need encouraging. But excessively greedy developers are collectively trying to push these peoples buttons as much as they can in order to make as much money as they can. It borders on criminality IMO.

A side issue, which you allude to, is Skin betting. This arises because in game economies, like ones which have a fake currency of gems or stars, create value (or more accurately perceived value) in their items -i.e. skins. Kids have reportedly got involved in this much murkier area as well (https://parentzone.org.uk/article/what-skin-gambling). Third party sites operate outside of the in game economies and allow the sale of desirable items for real world money, usually through bitcoin or paypal. Its pretty similar to how stockbrokers and currency speculators operate in the real world. And again, these areas are regulated by governments - and for good reason. There is no regulation in skin betting.

 

[Kyriakos]

So skin-betting at least has some smaller cetaceans? Like dolphins.
And how do you get hold of the objects to sell? Only by playing the game?
(asking for a friend who is an amateur whaler)

 

[Angst]

Can other players sell stuff to you? That seems to be where the real money would be made.
And imagine the possibilities if you are also a company employee with some tech abilities ($$$)
If it can't be traced back to you, I'd try it. Would only regret getting away with $100.000 if it led to a suicide.

(more seriously, taking 100.000 from a single person would certainly be too immoral for me ^_^ Then again I think people sell game stuff - armor, weapons etc- for thousands of dollars online).

Sometimes it can be traded, but most lootbox economies are nontradable.

 

[warpus]

Kind of like a combination of baseball cards and those 1-900 phone numbers where you could talk to Santa Claus (but get your parents’ permission first!)*

Is it gambling? Ehhh, I don’t know. But do we need more regulation than there already is if the kids are stealing their parents’ credit cards? Maybe the parents ought to do a little better job of not letting their kids get hold of them, or raise them not to steal from their parents.

So on one hand I actually agree with you here. How are these kids able to access their parent's CC so easily? Maybe let's rectify that, as that seems to be the problem?

If somebody wants to spend their own money (i.e. not their parents') on virutal things that don't exist, who are we to stop them? And why does only the government get to have a monopoly on gambling? That's not right. Put standards and regulations in place that tell operators how to operate these sorts of businesses legally, and open it up to everyone. If this is a true danger to the public then it shouldn't exist in the first place.

Are these games gambling or not? European courts seem to think that they are. If they are then they should follow whatever gambling regulations exist in whatever country this is happening in (UK, but my statement applies to anywhere).

In the end, if the main problem here is: "Kids are using their parents' credit cards without authorization" then this is not about gambling at all...