Lost in Plato's Cave? Don't worry, there is a light in the end

Kyriakos

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Plato's allegory of the cave is rather more prominent (or at least heard of) among laymen (ie those unfortunates not lucky enough to have a very useful and prestigious degree in philosophy).



The story appears in the 7th book of the Republic, as is narrated by Socrates to Glaucon (the latter is Plato's older brother). While the allegory has various more theoretical meanings, Socrates himself notes that it is narrated also with the end to show why the philosophers must not just look down upon non-philosophically trained citizens, and thus return to the prisoners in the cave once they have become familiar with the world of light outside of it.

The narrative presents a situation where a number of people are imprisoned and chained in the edge of a large cave, and there can only observe the shadows on the wall in front of them. Those shadows are created by the movement of other beings who carry objects or idols of objects, and walk behind a tall wall (so virtually themselves do not cast even a shadow, while what they hold does cast shadows).
The prisoners inevitably form the view that the shadows they see are real objects, and thus are employed with examining them and theorising on what they are, how they move, etc, treating the shadows as a primary object and not a weak manifestation of something else.

We aren't told why those people are prisoners, nor how (at some point) one manages to be freed. The freed person is naturally amazed by the new points of view he has even inside the cave. Walking past the large fire in the edge of the cave (which was casting the shadows) he goes outside, where he is at first overwhelmed by the strong light of the Sun.
In turns he is occupied by observing the reflections of objects in the image they form onto the waters of rivers, then looking at the objects by themselves, and, finally, catches glimpses of the Sun, which lights everything.
Socrates explains that those three parallel knowledge of math, knowledge of the abstract Forms (Eide/Archetypes) and knowledge of the Over-Archetype, which he terms "Agathon" (in english it means 'benevolent').

The allegory of the cave is presenting Plato's ties to Eleatic philosophy, and primarily Parmenides, but also Pythagoras. While Parmenides argues that an actual 'reality' exists but is entirely outside anything humans can even infinitesimally grasp by their own sense or thinking, Plato argues that humans can at least have a tie to a shadow of a shadow of some eternal and actual reality, symbolised by the Sun in the story of the cave.

-Are you inside the cave, and if you are then what does a shadow of what is being told form as onto the wall you are made to endlessly look at?
-Philosophy #1 or just more hipsteria? :)

-Or you can discuss more on this issue, Plato, philosophy etc.

(btw, you can find the text in many places online, and in english. Eg at http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.8.vii.html )
 
We are definitely in a cave. Our familiar notions of space and time is merely a useful perspective. Whatever is actually going on is probably markedly different from everyday physical notions.
 
Platos allegory of the cave is closely related to his theory of forms, which is largely dismissed in modern science.
He imagined the observable world and the things inside to be projections of greater and more perfect things, while we can nowadays more or less conclude that large and complicated things emerge from smaller and simpler components and gain new features on the way.
 
Useful to note that the platonic model of forms/eide/archetypes is itself a less radical version of the parmenidian model, where the 'immobile/changeless reality' is not factored at all in human senses or thought. ;)

Then again, if such an over-reality exists is not something you can prove or disprove. And itself is only one of the opposite models in classical greek philosophy. Another is the model of infinite inner-dependence of human notions in the human thinking, which do not have to co-exist with a stable over-reality either. Point of view is a core element in classical greek philosophy, which was not the dreadful hipsterosophy of later times :)

@Gigaz: that is false, cause the theory of the atom was there prior to Plato. Democritos is roughly 3/4rths of a century before Plato. Generally that point you made is at absolute odds with the texts we have (but is a common error posted all around...)
 
We are definitely in a cave. Our familiar notions of space and time is merely a useful perspective. Whatever is actually going on is probably markedly different from everyday physical notions.

Makes death seem less scary and more cool.
 
You've got to remember that when you're walking through reality, what you're seeing and hearing is a model your brain built for you, given the data it has received. You exist in a simulation that your brain has built for you and is meant to act as a close approximation to reality.

When bats make their way through life, they experience a different reality, because their brains get different data, via different sensory organs, and so construct a different simulation.

I think this is on topic.
 
Makes death seem less scary and more cool.

I would definitely say it's more scary and more cool.

If we entertain the possibility of attaining immortality. We suddenly run into all sorts of scary stuff (the classic example being the possibility of Hell).

Mortality has the benefit of limiting the possible bad outcomes to the end of one's lifespan (as an individual) and the heat death of the universe (as humanity [including post-humans]). So whereas mortality is certainly sad, it doesn't put infinite pressures on us, and allows us to take things from a lighter viewpoint and embrace the absurdity of our existence.

Nick Bostrom's Infinite Ethics is a fun paper on some of the problems once we start thinking about what we do when the prospect of infinity crops up.



Personally though, I find most accounts for immortality to be wildly implausible, mostly because I have a very loose view of personal identity. A person is a kinda-sorta thing that is more loosely woven together than we imagine. Death is only the ending if the story is about myself.

I do think [wiki]Quantum immortality[/wiki] and [wiki]Simulation argument[/wiki]s are interesting though.
 
You've got to remember that when you're walking through reality, what you're seeing and hearing is a model your brain built for you, given the data it has received. You exist in a simulation that your brain has built for you and is meant to act as a close approximation to reality.

When bats make their way through life, they experience a different reality, because their brains get different data, via different sensory organs, and so construct a different simulation.

I think this is on topic.
Yes, it is all in our minds.
 
You've got to remember that when you're walking through reality, what you're seeing and hearing is a model your brain built for you, given the data it has received. You exist in a simulation that your brain has built for you and is meant to act as a close approximation to reality.

When bats make their way through life, they experience a different reality, because their brains get different data, via different sensory organs, and so construct a different simulation.

I think this is on topic.

(emphasis mine)

Most ancient greek philosophers are against the view that the sensory experience is an approximation of a reality. A very notable exception (but it is characteristic of him; he is always more interested in models of the external world) is Aristotle, who claims that the world of matter is again a phenomenon/appearance of something else, but argues that it is tied crucially to a reality of a Form.
This isn't a very popular view in ancient Greek philosophy. And it is entirely anti-Platonic, and of course also anti-Eleatic. :)

Moreover it is incompatible with Empedocles, Protagoras and Heraklitos, and likely also Anaxagoras and virtually every other presocratic with very few exceptions (maybe Anaximenes would agree, but he was not deemed an important philosopher by Aristotle's time).
 
^If 2d is not defined as a shadow of 3d then 2d and 3d are not in any progression intuitively theorised by humans and thus there is no paradox there :yup:

For all we know "3d" itself is not a state at all, but is some inevitable formation for beings that pick up stuff distinct as matter or thought. In such a sense 3d and 'arbitrary but constant barrier" is one and the same, and 2d, 1d an 0d are just stuff in that arbitrary formation and again not tied to any 'reality'.

Btw, hologram theory? That is a theory by David Icke of Reptilian fame, right? :D
 
Never heard of that guy.
 
Any opportunity to use that knowledge once you have mastered it?
 
I plan on being one of those internet cranks who trolls out their own personal theory of everything.

That seems like a supremely useful way to devote my time.

Moth to flame, I guess. lol
 
I plan on being one of those internet cranks who trolls out their own personal theory of everything.

That seems like a supremely useful way to devote my time.

Moth to flame, I guess. lol
Touche'. But I'm sure you can do better than that and spin that knowledge into silver, if not, gold. :p
 
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