LotR10: Scouting Sid

Originally posted by Reagan
I'd like to pretty much mirror Arathorn's comments about our end-game strategy. I did a double-take when I read that we didn't steal Flight when we had the chance. We don't have to found an airbase city to take advantage of bombers, although that would be preferable to using carriers.
Count me in here. I thought we were in agreement that we were going to use bombers to take Uskudar? :confused: Arathorn did make a list of the troops we will need for our attack a few posts above mine.

Originally posted by Skyfish
I would totally understand if you'd rather go on with this SG without crappy players like me
We all make mistakes Skyfish. We've made it this far as a team, and we're going to finish as a team. You know we all :love: you. And everyone knows you're not a crappy player.
 
As I have noted in my posts, I don't think we have any chance of getting an airstrip within bombing range without taking on the full force of the Ottoman army.

Don't worry about me not having stolen flight, we would need Mass Production anyway to build carriers and I left the game with enough gold for a safe steal of Flight.

That is why I left the game to others, if it were me I would steal MT, mobilize and build tanks and transports and maybe a few more arti. Then load them all up, move into position for an assault on Uskudar. I would take the Rep hit involved in unloading next to Uskudar before declaring war. Then assault Uskudar, I wouldn't do any slogging through Otto territory. I think the navy needed for using carriers against Otto is prohibitively expensive.

If I had to assess our chances I would put our chance of gaining an airfield in range of Usukudar at 0.001%, our chance of slogging through Ottoman territory at 0.1% and our chance of winning a one shot offensive against Usukudar at 3-5% but then we still have to win the vote.

As far as the space race I was using f10 and it was saying 'you need a spy', but I do see now that the victory screen has the top space contender listed.

We haven't lost any chances for leaders because we are not currently at war with anyone.

So whoever is next should take it. If we're still alive I'll play on my next round. I just can't bring myself to commit to the bomber strat.
 
Perhaps there is another way to cut the Ottoman defenses around Uskudar down to size with some convoluted diplomatic manipulation...

1. Get the Ottomans to be as furious at you as possible. Demanding a city 50x in a row would work, or (if that is considered an exploit) sign as many embargos/alliances against them as you can (which would also put relations in the gutter).
2. Declare war 6-8 turns before you intend to take Uskudar. The Ottomans respond against their hated enemy by launching their nuclear arsenal at you, causing every civ on the planet to declare war on the them.
3. The Ottoman eat the entire nuclear stockpile of the rest of the world (which I would imagine could be quite substantial on Sid) reducing Uskudar to rubble.
4. Land tanks/infantry/cavalry 2 squares from Uskudar (to avoid being caught in the blast radius of any continuing exchanges), withstand whatever counterattacking units the Ottomans have left, take Uskudar (hopefully from minimal resistance), and make peace with the Ottomans.

Of course, this is dependent on the Ottomans possessing Uranium, Aluminum, and the required techs. Even if it worked, you would also have to accept the nuclear devestation of most of your cities. Since the launch date for the Spaceship has been push back, there should be enough time for the top civs to accumulate a substantial number of ICBMs, before the end. In fact, it wouldn't be surprising if the missles begin to fly sometime soon without any outside intervention.
 
I got about halfway through my turns last night. The second half will probably take longer, though. Care of each city is kinda necessary at this point.

It might be done tonight, but I think tomorrow night is more likely. There's just a lot to be done and checked every turn.

Arathorn
 
(0) 1475 - No time like the present. Do an immediate steal from the Ottomans -- it's much cheaper and we really don't care if they declare on us at this point. It succeeds and we are now the proud owners of Flight. Nobody has much of anything to offer for Flight. I would kinda liked to get Communism for Police Stations (both for corruption and happiness help while in Republic), but it's not woth all our gold or ~90 gpt, so I don't. I hope to get it for an alliance in a few turns (when it will be too late) anyway.

I think about allying vs. the Ottomans now, but we have a number of undefended ships in the area that would pay the penalty, so I don't do that now.

Go through and micromanage cities, changing some production orders to get us bombers and a few airports for fighter defenders.

Entertainers are generally made into engineers. If the entertainer made WLTKD, they were kept...otherwise they were changed to engineers to help buildings complete in reasonable time. All buildings that I think might be wanted are ordered now. Realize it was silly to MM now, because I'm going to mobilize, so I'll need to MM again after that. Essentially all build orders changed to buildings, so I can have them where I want them after mobilization.

MOBILIZE!

Re-MM. Well, I want to, but it doesn't seem mobilization affected anything at all. No change in shields is really detectable. Is mobilization broken in C3C??? Something is screwy anyway. I can't seem to get extra shields for units in any city. Hmmm.... Well, that really blows.

Find the leader and turn him into an army -- fill it with 3 infantry (shuffling rifles where necessary). Blow a ton of gold (750) upgrading trebuchets into artillery. It was either that or disband them and we really need the firepower more than the cash at this point. Nearly our last 330 gold goes into upgrading rifles into infantry.

We're nearing readiness. I want a few settlers. We have one, but he's clear over west of Russia, for reasons unknown. Good thing I didn't jump the gun vs. Osman. In 4 turns, when our trades to him are complete, though, we might go to war. By that time, though, I can have the settler safe. That'll give me a bit of time to try to find another spot to build them from. Haarlem will be the spot, once it finishes its marketplace. Might have to get creative with engineers, too.

Having spent essentially all our gold, I finally press enter.

(I) Takes forever but little of note happens. I do figure out what the deal with mobilization is, though. Apparently, bombers and fighters aren't military units, so they don't get the shield bonus?!? How wrong is that? Hmmm...what to do.

(1) 1480 - Catch a glimpse of Ottoman troops -- they're using tanks, not modern armor, which is a very encouraging sign. Move a lot of troops towards the Ottomans.

Oh, interesting. All cities that were on non-military builds are now building Flak cannons. Apparently, you can no longer "trick" a city into building ANYTHING non-military while mobilized. Good to keep in mind. Means a bunch more MMing for me this turn, but that's OK.

All bomber builds sent to submarine. Anybody that will complete a submarine in one turn will be switched back to bombers. Tedious and unnecessary, but it's the way to actually get some benefit out of our mobilization.

(I) Ottomans finish off the Russians. Bummer. But they're still at war with a couple other civs, so their military might will hopefully move in that direction (like against the Aztecs).

We catch an agent of Spain (Isobella) trying to sabotage production in Utrecht. That's kinda odd. Not like we're gonna retaliate, though.

Arnhem, even with the bizarre mobilization rules, can do a fighter/turn, which will be helpful for air superiority, so he's put on that mission now.

(2) 1485 - Not much to do but clean up pollution and wait for a few more bombers to come online.

(I) Still trying to figure out how mobilization works. It might be your first project STARTED after you're mobilized that gets the bonus? It's weird.

(3) 1490 - Test and see that we can effectively take all of old Russia to Moscow without needing to rebase bombers from Leerdam. With the Ottomans have 150K+ gold, we should get a bunch from them every time we raze a city. Just gotta keep the bombers flowing and get 50 infantry ready to ship across (we're getting close to that mark).

Our ivory and incense imports will expire next turn. Try to renogiate the non-Ottoman ones.

(I) Portugal and Spain make peace.

(4) 1495 - Continue positioning for attack.

Cancel ivory deal with Ottomans. Re-purchase incense for Flight (also get 130 gold). I don't care if the Mongols have some techs, as long as it saves me 40 gpt, I'm happy. But there's no source on the planet for another luxury. Sigh.

I end up raising lux tax to 10%, because there's no other way to keep our major cities happy. Even so, I have to re-MM a lot of cities. Income down to 591 gpt. Not ideal but the best I can do under the circumstances.

(I) Mongols declare on Aztecs.

(5) 1500 - Send Wines to Aztecs for Gems and an alliance against the Ottomans. Land troops by Krasnoyorsk and bomb it empty (MI and TI defending). Can't take it this turn -- can't attack from boats (I wonder if I could've used the army???). Cross fingers in fear of the inter-turn.

(I) Ottomans declare war on the Spanish. They bomb Leerdam once, injuring some boats. And that's it????

Aztecs come wanting to cancel Horses for 36 gpt deal. They have no gpt, but they give WM and 626 gold for horses, which is just as good, almost.

We catch a spy plant attempt from Montezuma of the Aztecs. No worries there.

(6) 1505 - Only one MI defends Krasno now. Two artillery hit...bomber flies and...

lotr10-kras-capture.jpg


Yakutsk is scarier -- defended by two TIs...and a modern armor. Sigh. That'll make progress a bit slower. Bombers actually kill no one. I attacked before we were prepared. We'll have more bombers next turn. One city/turn is going to be the best we can hope for for a while.

I do use some of our gold to plant a spy in Istanbul against the Ottomans.
19 workers, 13 rifles, 1 infantry, 3 tanks, 70 MI, 19 MA, 17 artillery, 2 cruise missiles, 4 ICBM, 1 transport, 14 destroyers, 3 fighters, 3 bombers, 7 jet fighters, 67 TOW infantry, 1 mobile SAM. That's actually much smaller than I would've guessed, but it doesn't include captured units, which looks to be another dozen or so artillery.

We carefully steal Mobilized Transportation from the Ottomans, but tanks are almost valueless, so I start production on precisely zero of them. Radio for towers might be nice, and if we can get modern and MI, that would be extremely handy. That's used up our ill-gotten gains, though, so I stop for now.

(I) Lose 2 infantry to MA. Bummer. I wish they'd concentrate on the Aztecs in the south. Oh well.

(7) 1510 - We have more gold from the interturn, so we carefully steal Radio. We're now in the modern age. Aztecs and Hittites are only up Rocketry in the Modern Age, so our next steal might turn into a 2fer. Spain is up all visible techs. Mongols and Portugeuse are behind us. Ottomans are unknown.

Hilversum founded on the Ottoman continent. It will be a target of many attacks, I'm sure. Walls rushed via worker.

Kill 2 MAs, a jet fighter, one one tow infantry in Yakutsk. Final TOW has 1 hp left and I can't kill him this turn. More bombers are on the way, however.

(I) No counters from Ottomans. Swap WMs with Aztecs. The Ottomans are hitting them hard on the Ottoman continent. Once the Aztecs are driven off that soil, we're gonna start seeing a lot more units.

(8) 1515 - Bomb the final TOW out of Yakutsk. I'm gonna have to lose a unit to raze it. Horseman gains 1785 gold razing Yakutsk. He'll be lost, for certain, but he's easily replaceable. A second infantry army would be incredibly handy now -- one to cover attackers and one for the city to limit attacks on us. Only one MI in Orenburg, and it's now gone. Do I send a cavalry to its death? Darn right I do. We'll get enough cash to rush a replacement next turn. On second thought, we're doing OK on fighters. I change Arnhem over to cavalry production -- their speed makes them a great complement to bombers. And we get another 1818 gold in our coffers. Steal coming up.

That gold we just took from their cities turns into a careful steal. And we now have Computers. Computers gets Communism, WM, 4765 gold (all they had), and Amphibious War (marines are often useful in conjunction with bombers as well). Computers and 5000 gold isn't enough to get Rocketry from Hitties, so maybe another steal is in order. Anybody know if a 2nd steal in one turn is more or less likely to succeed?

Another careful Steal from the Ottomans gets us ... Hmm... Ecology, I guess. Computers + Ecology gets us Fascism, Rocketry, WM, and all 23 gold from the Hittites. We're making some serious progress through the Modern Age here. And we have enough for another steal. Do I dare?

Well, not immediately. Spain is up all visible except Synthetic Fibers. We do have aluminum, one source by Harlingen near our core. I'd like to upgrade some fighters to jet fighters, but I'll need to cycle them in and out.

Yekaterinburg resists initial bombings. It's defended by at least an MI and a TOW.

Well, I do try a third time, still carefully, but our spy is caught. I do get him replanted, however.

(I) Mongols and Ottomans come to peace. I don't like that at all. Ottomans don't even kill our exposed horse units. But SOMEBODY sabotages production in Maastricht. Oh well.

(9) 1520 - Jet fighters are starting to appear in lots of Ottoman cities. We catch one on the ground and then lose a bomber to one. Take out MI and TOW in Yekat, but I can't reach it for a couple of turns. Lose a couple more bombers to jet fighters, operating out of St. Pete. We'll need to bomb in force to get rid of them. I'll try to accomplish that next turn.

No gold for a steal this turn. No good diplo stuff at all. Ottomans still not talking (not that peace at the current time is good for us, anyway).

(I) Ottoman counter is once again non-existent. The silence is starting to scare me a bit.

(10) 1525 - Rushed marine razes Yekat for 1815 gold. He'll be exposed, but the Ottomans haven't been attacking much. I'd hoped to catch a plane or two in the city, but I should've known better. They would have been visible (and first to die to my bombers earlier). Time for the St. Pete battle royale....

I send in the fighters first, to try to draw enemy fire on less important targets...but all of them bomb without being intercepted and without hitting anything.

Bombers time.... First two kill of a jet fighter. Third and fourth reveal one MI and one TOW in the city. We should hopefully have enough to finish both of those off. Shoot! We're missing a lot and they had a conscript MI, too. It's gonna be close boys and girls. Both MI fall and then I start hitting buildings -- courthouse, factory, stock exchange, marketplace...come on, one hp on a TOW -- you can do it!!! But I can't... Everybody else misses. My only unit in the area is one horsemen, who could take the empty city with no problem, but do I attack a TOW with an ancient era unit??? You bet your sweet bippy I do!!! And he wins with one hp left, capturing an artillery and destroying an ICBM!!! 1850 gold ain't shabby neither.

There are lots of Hittites appearing in our way. Do we sign them in against Ottomans? Up to the next leader. I think I would, but this is a team game!

I spend a fair chunk of change upgrading our infantry in Ottoman lands to mech infantry. I also have noticed a couple of extra aluminum in our lands and not hooked up, so I'm working on getting those up and going. I even upgrade one longbow to TOW infantry, mostly to see what the team's impression of it is.

Another careful steal attempt against the Ottomans is attempted. No luck with getting Synth Fibers, which we could use to get a bunch of cash from Spain. Our spy isn't captured, though. Not enough to try again this turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/lotr10-1525ad.zip

I'll have more to say about strategy tomorrow. It's bedtime now.

Arathorn
 
Not only did you enter the Modern Era, you did so with a vengeance. I'm in total shock about the lack of response? Is it coming, or... wassup? Are we such a non-threat he's ignoring us like a pesky fly while he attacks a 'real threat'? (If he only knew!)

My favorite part of course is the horseman beating the TOW! :lol:
Bet you're glad they didn't change the combat model :P

Very well done -- it did seem unprepared at first, but with what they've come up with so far... outstanding!
Charis
 
Got it. So I get to try an top this amazing set of turns? :eek:

If I do not get to it tonight--will be Thursday, since I have a business trip.
 
I don't think we're going to lose anytime soon. The Ottomans still only have two spaceship parts completed. They're quite a ways from launching and I don't think they can get enough votes to win diplomatically, since they're at war with much of the world. Culture looks safe, too, with the top city just over 10K and the Ottomans, Hittites, and Spanish all pretty culture-heavy.

There are still 3 cities we can bomb to oblivion from the safety of our continent. Once those are gone, we're going to have to make some more decisions.... Should be fairly early in Bam-Bam's turns.

We have probably 15 MI or so in Hilversum, plus a settler. The path to the front is blocked by Hittite troops and poor roads (some of which I bombed out myself when I was still in fear for Hilversum's life). At some point, we'll probably want to found a second city around where Moscow currently is. Movement forward might need to start soon. This makes me afraid.

I'm somewhat convinced that the reason the Ottomans didn't attack much (their only attack was when I had split my stack very early) is that they don't think they can win and they have Aztec targets. Splitting the stack to cover two cities (and only having the army in one location) might cause us to look weak (although MI will help that appearance) and encourage attack.

OTOH, those ICBMs might get used before too long. The Ottomans are going to start hating us more and more as we raze their cities. I fear for our large stacks. Hopefully, the AI will not nuke us at all!!! But if they do, I hope they hit bigger cities and leave our unit stacks alone. But for that reason, it might be worth starting to spread out just a bit.

We can push to Uskudar with only two more city foundings. A city near where Moscow is won't be enough, but a third city on the Ottoman landmass should get our bombers into range of Uskudar.

Alternatively, we're not badly positioned to make a run at space. Spain and the Ottomans are still significantly ahead of us, BUT a successful steal of Synth. Fibers from the Ottomans and selling it to Spain would finance another few steals. It's definitely possible.

BTW, the Ottomans are willing to talk but not offer much for peace. Breaking our deal with the Aztecs doesn't seem particularly wise to me, but I thought I should mention it as an option.

Arathorn
 
Great set of turns, Arathorn! :hammer:

I haven't been able to take a look at the .sav, so take these comments with a grain of salt. Are we in a position to sign the world to an alliance against the Ottos and try to raze their capital? Doing that would trash their space ship. Where does everyone else stand in the space race? That might actually end up being the better victory path for us.

These comments are based on the following assumptions: (1) we are quickly approaching tech parity; (2) the Ottos are becoming gassed from our bomber runs; (3) we have enough income to sign alliances yet continue to steal techs every 4-5 turns; (4) we still have the production capability to build fresh troops to replace those we lose each turn; and (5) we have some doubts whether we could win a UN vote.

Let's talk about this before Bam-Bam plays. Solid strategy, and not speed, should be the order of the day from here on out.
 
I see that Arathorn and I cross-posted. It's good to see that we both independently thought of the space race strategy swap. It sounds, though, like my assumption #2 may not be correct and that #3 may be moot (because Ottos are already at war with several countries).

How close are we to the Ottos' capital?
 
Hopefully, the AI will not nuke us at all!!! But if they do, I hope they hit bigger cities and leave our unit stacks alone. But for that reason, it might be worth starting to spread out just a bit.

Worry the most about resource cities as that seems to be nukes favorite targets. Now if your beachhead city has a nearby resource :eek:

---------------------------

As for space race - if you can keep all the AIs fighting, they tend to not start new space parts. ;)
 
We are quite a ways from the Ottoman capital, as I recall. We've got to push through all of ex-Russia and some of ex-Aztecia to get there. It's past Uskudar, as I recall.

We're more than replacing casualties -- our army is growing in size. I lost like 3 bombers and 2 infantry total on my turns. Lethal land bombard is broken and this is probably the last game I'll host without editing it out.

I think your points (1)-(5) are all true. That doesn't mean we don't TRY for a UN win, though. We might do that, anyway (as long as we feel comfortable about not losing that way), with space as a solid back-up plan.

We're still at least 3 techs down to Spain and four to the Ottomans. BUT our income allows a careful steal every third/fourth turn and razing two Ottoman cities (every 2-3 turns) gives enough cash for another steal. I'm also relatively certain Lizzie would pay 10k+ (>3 steals) for Synth. Fibers if/when we steal that from the Ottomans.

I think we could sign the world against the Ottomans and still be fine stealing-wise. I'm not sure that's the best plan, however, as Spain is also a threat.

Resources may actually play a key role in the space race. I didn't check them during my turn, because
i) No time/energy to
ii) Wouldn't have changed my play anyway
iii) Trades/borders may change before the space race concludes/advances too far anyway
We are set for aluminum (with 3) and oil (2, I believe). We have one rubber (safe). I hav no idea about uranium yet (no fission). Uranium might play a major role as it was scarce before and will be even rarer with C3C's new rarer resources.

Some other things I should mention:
- All submarines are pre-builds for bombers. When a sub has one turn left, switch it over to bomber!!!! This helps with mobilization stuff, I believe.
- I didn't do my last turn's city MM, so that probably could be done. Tough to do too right with pollution, mobilization bonus coming and going, and other stuff.

Arathorn
 
Wow! very nice start Arathorn. :hammer:

The gold from city captures is great.

It would definitely be a good idea to keep both options open: space and diplo. I doubt Otto will focus too much on space parts when he is currently getting his butt kicked, especially when we cross into his homeland.
 
Speaker--go ahead and take the game. A switch actually fits my schedule better right now too.
 
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