LotR3 - SHADOW - Emperor training

[Arathorn]

(0) 1250 - Catta is due to riot. I would have to up lux taxes to 50% to counteract it. That's too high, so Catta needs something. The warrior nearby protecting the worker can be spared. I move him back in to Catt to keep the peace.

(I) Sala completes archer, begins worker. Our worker force is getting small. St. Regis builds warrior and begins a catapult -- it can't grow much until we get irrigation there from NF. And since artillery weapons don't have regular/veteran/elite status, they're good to build in no-barracks cities.

(1) 1225 - One warrior from St. Regis moves south to hopefully become a sword, once iron is connected. Sala archer headed for A for MP purposes. Worker by GR roads. Warrior in Catt fortifies. Worker there roads. Scout hangs on to block Russia.

Philosophy still looks too expensive to buy. I hold off again. I don't think I can get full value from whoring it around to other civs.

(2) 1200 - Worker by NF north to more floodplain, looking to road/irrigate NW. Worker by T moves to hills to west, OK location and improves reinforcement move times (probably should've gone to the other plains in T's radius -- whoops). Scout hangs on. N warrior moving around trying to minimize fog density.

(I) Sala worker completes, granary started.

(3) 1175 - Archer reaches A and is done. A couple of workers road. The new Sala worker moves SW to help the other worker along.

Nothing done on diplo front.

(I) OS completes barracks and begins granary.

(4) 1150 - Worker by Catt to bonus grass to mine/road. Rest pretty easy to do. NF citizen moved from desert to floodplain with road/irrigation. Will need to watch carefully that the granary completes before the population grows.

(5) 1125 - Worker by A moves to bonus grass W of the city. Workers by Sala both road. Warrior continues down towards OS.

(6) 1100 - I resolve to check diplo first, as I've been lax the last couple turns. Everybody has philosophy -- I probably could've done better earlier. Oh well. I buy it from last-place China for WM and 50 gold.

I move one NF citizen from the flood plain to the desert for one turn, to slow down growth so the granary completes before the growth happens. This saves a whole-person's worth of food -- a big savings. Sala also gets one shot of hill instead of grass, to encourage building before growing.

(I) China demands TM and 34 gold. Hmm...I still want a bit of peace, as we still have no good units. I cave.

Russia picks a really annoying spot for a city and Egypt starts the Pyramids.

(7) 1075 - NF citizen stays on desert, as it would still grow too fast otherwise. Sala citizen back to the grasslands.

Workers by Sala split, one west to hill on way to GR, one SW to grass. Scout moves out of new Russian city's cultural range.

Diplo was uneventful.

(I) Egypt wants WM + 5 gold for their WM. I agree, more to keep the peace than to see their new WM. We do learn a few squares of stuff.

A finishes granary and begins a barracks. Catt riots, because I forgot to check it. Stupid Arathorn. They're given a taxman.

(8) 1050 - Both workers by Sala road.

Not much to say. NF citizen put back on floodplain from desert.

(I) India cancels RoP, which is cool, because we might be able to use that to get a bit more cash in our next deal. NF completes granary and begins settler. St. R completes catapult and starts a temple.

(9) 1025 - Catapult moves south towards front. Scout begins operation "Russia block" with a settler pair moving through our territory. Worker by T back to plains to irrigate/road another one.

NF citizen put onto desert, as growth will be overwhelming next turn anyway.

(I) Sala completes granary, begins warrior. Catt builds temple, starts courthouse. Chinese begin Pyramids. Russian settler pair retreats.

(10) 1000 - Worker by NF heads NW to desert to irrigate and hopefully pass between the mountains to get to St. R.

I do a full diplo check and see nothing exciting.

I move an NF citizen to a floodplain for growth in 2, slightly slowing the settler but getting more population faster.

Arathorn

Not one of my best sets of turns. I was in a bit of a hurry and wasn't concentrating fully. Don't hold these turns up as an example of play.

Save game at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-1000bc.zip

 

[Arathorn]

You noticed Catt was going into revolt – that’s a good catch. It’s always good to review cities when starting. Usually, the person playing before you will try to catch some things, but the idiot playing the previous turn (that would be me, in case anybody was curious) didn’t review the cities before posting. (Now, I could claim it was a training exercise, but, well…I just missed it.)

Anyway, I disagree with your solution. There was a warrior nearby who was guarding a worker – a noble cause to be sure, but definitely less important than helping Catt grow. The warrior should’ve been awakened and moved to Catt to help with the happiness. While we have MP, we should use it. And, a scientist is probably less valuable than a taxman at this point. The odds of getting something in 40 turns is slim-to-none, so I would just get the gold.

Good catch on the lux tax. I’m trying to remember why it was necessary…and I can’t come up with anything.

(1200) Moving a worker from NF to A is quite a long trek. NF is using more tiles all the time, as it grows rapidly. I opted to start irrigating towards St. Regis, which is also a high priority. A has one worker there already, who can’t keep up, but it’s a start. St. R has none. Certainly not weedy, just sub-optimal, in my opinion. The 3 or 4 turns it takes to get to A are essentially “wasted”. We are definitely behind on workers.

(1150) Aargh! Hate those riots.

(1125) $50 is a pretty good price for Philosophy. Our WM has already been brokered. Could you get a better deal by including it again? Once it’s been brokered, I fully agree with buying it. We don’t want money sitting around as a target for barbs/AI extortion.

(1100) First sighting. Maybe the extra citizen at work doesn’t add any shields (I think working the forest might add one), but he would definitely add to the food. One beaker/turn is highly unlikely to get us Monarchy, but two extra food/turn can get Catt larger, which can only be a good thing, as we’ve discussed before. Growth is extremely important in the early game (as opposed to mid- and late- game, where it’s only very important).

(1075) Yeah, getting the second luxury online ASAP is reasonably important. And, at some point, we will definitely want to connect the rest of the luxuries up there. But it could’ve waited, so it should’ve – in this case, mining the bonus grass and/or moving back to A/Catt were more important. Another few workers at this point would be advantageous.

(1050) Did you pay for a RoP? Why? We only really want to do RoP to get gold or to get us to a war front faster, if such becomes important. If you got India to pay, well, you were the only one to do so. If you paid, .

I agree with most all of the builds in the cities. The workers, I would split, as it costs less total worker turns. Sirian explained this in his training game. By having workers split up, there is one less worker turn spent in moving onto an unroaded square. There are times to have them gang up, and definitely when the world is roaded and you’re trying to railroad, you gang them up, because no time is wasted in so doing and you get the benefits faster. Since we’re understaffed, not wasting turns is even more important.

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

I like your first thing first! Very good way to start. I did that, and I played the last official turn!

Good catch on the Catt situation and a good solution. A for solving that problem in an eloquent way. If the worker were to die (highly unlikely now that the Russians have formed a nearly-no-fog zone), it would be a bad loss, but the chance for continued growth is more important. Good call.

(1225) Minor nit – it’s usually better to go 6-7-7 on the off-chance you grow in the middle turn.

AWESOME tech trading – easily the best in the group. You actually gained money doing the trading (including WM probably helped). That’s just awesome. Maybe you’ll be teaching me next.

(1175) Selling the WM for updates and gold is nice. 4 gold is nothing to sneeze at. If done a few times, that's a free upgrade, essentially.

(1150) I don't quite understand all this.

(1075) The incense was hooked up when GR was. I explained this in Arizona_Steve's review. The second is nice, but not a priority, mining the bonus grass is more important. The second luxury came with GR (easily seen by looking at a city or doing a Ctl-shift-m or noted in Lee's turn).

(1050) Instead of an entertainer, make a taxman (or a scientist). Granted, one gold/turn isn't much, but the entertainer is worth nothing. One happy citizen vs. content isn't a benefit (because no WLTKD until size is at least 6).

Comments from save file:
- I hadn’t understood your MM of Sala and NF. As it is now, the NF granary will come too late and food will be wasted – I think it would’ve been better to let NF get a bit of priority here. Moving a citizen from the wheat to the desert would help with this, but I think the granary could’ve appeared one turn earlier, for a bigger overall gain. Not sure of the cost to Sala, though. Sala has other two-shield options, though. I think this was asserting itself, but I’m not completely sure.
- I am not convinced about the settler into the jungle by Russia. It will help seal things up, but I think the horse by Moscow and our lack have somewhat sealed our relations with them. And one more city there is just another place to defend. Overall, though, I like it, with some reservations.
- Barb camp in north is a mixed blessing. Our one warrior might handle it again and he might not. The human’s bonuses vs. barbs drops with each level and one regular warrior vs. a barb camp is no sure thing. It’s a reasonable gamble, but a unit can be worth more than 25 gold. It would need immediate cleaning.
- Road to Mauch Chunk is a bit premature. The city won’t grow for 15 turns, at which time its temple will complete. What can wait should wait. This road section can wait easily and getting irrigation/roads to St. Regis can’t wait as easily. That’s the higher priority. Not horrible but suboptimal. I like getting to St. Regis -- with both roads and irrigation.

Arathorn

 

[Jbob42]

thanks arathorn!

im not sure about the MM of sala/NF either basically, i saw that Sala was going to grow with extra food AND that i would waste 3 shields on the next unit there if i left everything alone. I saw that the mine was there and decided to use that -- not wasting any food and completing the unit without wastage.

After this was done, I was supposed to put the mine back on NF, and i calculated that it should finish its granary BEFORE the growth.
BUT.....
I dont think i remembered to go back and turn the mine back to NF! The next turn would probably be able to still do this and get the granary before the finish.

I was going to leave the warrior in the N fortified on the hill so he could possible promote on the barbs, and then could go finish off the camp when necessary.

As soon as the sala worker was done the mine, i saw that he could irrigate and road to st. regis, <- didnt see this as a big priority at the beginning of the turn, but definitely saw it by turn 10.

1 more question: I was used to the civ2 style when taxmen/scientists have no effect on the unhappyness -- in civIII, a scientist/taxman will replace an unhappy person and prevent rioting? ok 2 questions: what are the bonuses for a wltkd ?

thanks again!

 

[LKendter]

Taxmen / Scientist do NOT increase happiness.
What does happen - The unhappy person becomes a taxmen / scientist. Therefore, you have one less unhappy person.


WLTKD - This helps to reduce corruption.
It does not impact the close to capitial cities much, but with cities at 25% corruption on more it can make a big difference.
I can't quote the exact % of corruption reduction off the top of my head.

 

[Arathorn]

I saw that the mine was there and decided to use that -- not wasting any food and completing the unit without wastage.

I believe there were some forests available that could have served as well.... Not sure, don't remember the exact details. And were two shields needed or could you have worked an unmined hill for the one shield? Again, details escape me. The problem with extreme MM like this is that it's hard to remember all the details and you can do worse by trying to do better. I certainly do MM at times (some times more than others). But you gotta watch it like a hawk....

I was going to leave the warrior in the N fortified on the hill so he could possible promote on the barbs, and then could go finish off the camp when necessary.

Could work, until the camp uprises and spawns 20+ barb horsemen, who overrun the poor warrior and steal a few hundred gold from our coffers and kill a city to boot. It's nice in theory and can work at lower levels with the huge bonus vs. barbs (back in my regeant days, I had one spear defeat 16 barb horsies). At emperor, I prefer not to take the chance -- if I can avoid it. At deity, the AI cleans up camps so fast I barely even notice their existence....

1 more question: I was used to the civ2 style when taxmen/scientists have no effect on the unhappyness -- in civIII, a scientist/taxman will replace an unhappy person and prevent rioting? ok 2 questions: what are the bonuses for a wltkd ?

Yes, a taxman/scientist will replace the unhappy person (to an extent) with a specialist and then rioting will be prevented. I think it works like this....

Citizen 1 is content, just because he's part of our empire.
Citizen 2 would be unhappy, but there's a MP warrior keeping him content.
Citizen 3 would be unhappy, but he becomes a specialist, so he doesn't care about anything other than himself. And specialists are always "content".

As for wltkd, I heartily recommend the thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19922

wltkd decreases corruption/waste for both distance and city number. In general, it about halves corruption due to distance and helps some with city count corruption.

It also helps with anti-flip chances -- and might easily have additional repurcussions that I'm not aware of.

Rules for getting wltkd (from memory, so it might be off). Size 6+. No unhappy citizens, more happy than (content+specialist). No food loss (even is OK). Not too hard to achieve but not trivial either.

Arathorn

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Inherited Turn:
Salamanca building the pyramids huh? This (to me at least) is suboptimal for two reasons. Firstly the AI only requires 80% of the shields to build it, therefore someone else if likely to complete it before us. Secondly, we have already built granaries in most of our core cities, and selling them (if by some chance we DO complete the pyramids) would yield minimal cash.
I change Salamanca to build a settler, the only thing that can be built without shield loss. After all, we do have the Northern section of "our" land to colonize.
I leave everything else "as is".
Allegheny completes worker, starts another.

(1) 975BC
Allegheny worker moves SE, to road next turn en route to the shielded grassland.
Worker at Oil Springs completes road, starts mine.
Spearman at Oil Springs fortifies.
Worker at Cattauraugus completes something and moves to the cow, to mine next turn.
Settler builds Centralia where he stands. looks like a good spot. There's already a fortifying warrior there so a temple is ordered.
Check trades. All known civs have philosophy, all but India now have construction.
World map and 260 gold to China in exchange for Philosophy and Construction.
India has only 1 gold, I'll wait a turn before offering Ghandi Construction.
Salamanca builds settler, starts spearman. I'm a little concerned about Egypt's military being stronger than ours.
India starts the Pyramids.

(2) 950BC
I send the settler (on GOTO) to the hill next to the second iron. He will arrive in three turns.
Worker at Cattaraugus begins mining the cow (no fresh water there, so can't irrigate).
Worker at Allegheny begins building a road.
Very little happens. Two Russian settlers, a spearman and a warrior stack up just outside our borders.

(3) 925BC
Worker at St Regis completes a mine, starts road.
Worker at Grand Rover completes a mine. He is moved to help a second worker with his mining project. There is a road there, so no time lost.
Second worker at Cattaraugis finishes mining his cow, and heads NE-N to start roading towards Allegheny.
Allegheny completes a worker, starts courthouse. In the time taken to build this, Allegheny will grow and (despite being close to the capital) corruption will increase. The courthouse will reduce this.

(4) 900BC
Allegheny worker moves NE and begins to mine the gold hill there.
Worker at Cattaraugus starts a road to connect it to the trade network.
Must've screwed up somewhere as the scout moves into Russian territory with neither my knowledge or consent.
Maunch Chunk worker moves N to complete the last section of road there.
Settler gets into position.
Russia is pissed about the scout, so an ROP is signed (no cash changes hands). Catherine moves from cautious to polite. I notice that they also have currency now.
Salamanca builds spearman, starts another.

(5) 875BC
I let the scout nose around Russia, now we have the ROP.
Allegheny worker completes road, moves to shielded grassland.
Two workers complete mine near Grand River. One moves to the grassland next to Grand River, the second moves to mine a roaded square outside Allegheny.
Salamanca spearman moves to Niagra Falls. Extra MP always helps with a fast growing city like Niagra Falls.
Akwesasne built next to the second source of iron. Road already in place, warrior ordered.
Worker begins road to connect Maunch Chunk.
Everyone has currency. I buy it from China for World map + 140 gold and bring us into the middle ages.
Change Salamanca from spearman to marketplace.
India starts the Oracle.

(6) 850BC
Worker moves to build connecting road between St Regis and Salamanca.
Worker moves to remaining shielded grassland in range of Allegheny.
Russia has Monotheism (being scientific, of course). They won't trade right now.
Niagra Falls completes granary, starts settler.
Oil Springs completes granary, starts courthouse.

(7) 825BC
More mines started between Allegheny and Cattaraugus.
Catherine still won't trade Monotheism.
St Regis completes temple, starts barracks.

(8) 800BC
Maunch Chunk connected to our empire. Worker starts mining where he stands.
There's a Russian warrior/settler pair wandering into our land. The scout is moved to hinder his progress.
Some roadbuilding started between Allegheny and Cattaraugus.
Russia is still the only one with Monotheism. No-one else will trade.
China begins the Pyramids.

(9) 775BC
Road started next to Salamanca as mine completes there.
Cattaraugus will riot if not dealt with. Luxuries would need to go from 10% to 50%, we already have two MP, so I hire a taxman there.
Russia still refuses to part with Monotheism.

(10) 750BC
Russia has the Republic, which they will trade for an extortionate amount (world map, 350 gold, 24 gold per turn) and Monotheism, which is still not tradable.

Arizona_Steve Shadow turn - 750BC

 

[Jbob42]

argh- my official turn has 11 turns - that may screw things up for a bit. i dont have the autosave to go back either. @#$%!

 

[Arathorn]

I didn't forget about this -- honestly. Just been BURIED in stuff lately and haven't had a chance to reviews. Meetings, travel, false labor -- you name, I've experienced it.

Tomorrow, I hope. I apologize sincerely for my tardiness.

Arathorn

 

[Jbob42]

no problem arathorn. just looks like 2 turns to review this time.

 

[Arathorn]

(0) 1000 - Change Sala to spear -- Wonders are very hard to get on upper levels and two others already have Pyramids started. We have basically no chance. Move Catt citizen to cow from bonus grass -- faster growth and no loss of shields (because of waste). I debate buying Philosophy, but hold off as it's not critical to get now and China neither has it (driving down our cost) nor can afford it (to help defray our cost).

(I) Sala completes spearman and begins the first of a planned multitude of warriors, who will upgrade to sword to crush Russia (hmmm...20 swords or a chance at Pyramids? A: Swords). A completes worker and begins barracks. This will give us another core city which can crank unit, if/when the need arises.

(1) 975- Allegheny worker NE to grass near Sala to start improving it, as Sala is growing rapidly now. Sala's new spear heads for Allegheny. Worker near OS begins mining. Spear in OS fortifies. Scout is gonna try to get some info on Russia for us. Worker near Catt moves to cow to mine and road.

Centralia in the north is founded. Since it already has a warrior defender, I begin a temple. Worker is a good choice, too, and harbor before too long is wise.

Diplo -- China now has Philosophy -- and construction. Time to break out the checkbook. First, I explore the options. India is lacking construction, but doesn't have the gold to pay for it. At this point, I just buy Philosophy from India (maybe they can get Construction and drive the price down) for WM and 47 gold.

(I) Sala warrior brigade continues. Indians start Pyramids.

(2) 950 - All warriors produced in Sala heading to OS (which has a barracks) for later upgrade.

Worker by Sala irrigates a grassland -- ere too long, we'll have a govt change and we want irrigation in place to help us make the transition. Worker on cow mines.

I give a flood plains from Sala to NF as it makes no difference in Sala's growth time and helps NF grow.

Russia has three settler/unit pairs. I drool at the prospect of a ton of free workers.... But we're NOT ready to attack.

(I) Sala warriors.

(3) 925 - Worker SW of Catt joins other on cows. Scout goes in-and-out of Russia to see a regular spear defending Minsk -- semi-valuable info. Worker by St. Regis roads. Worker by GR joins the other to build the mine faster. Spear fortifies in A.

Egypt has Currency, as do Russia and India. China does not. I want to catch up, so I buy Currency from India for WM and 150 gold. Then, I sell Currency to China for ... Well, Currency won't get Construction. I chip in WM and 75 gold to get Construction. NOT what I had intended, but the value of Currency was a now-or-never exchange, so I took the offer.

Then, I evaluate building marketplaces. S and A both change to marketplaces, for long-term gold input. I hate breaking the warrior chain as it might completely eliminate a swordsman attack of Russia, but the thought of losing out on so much gold also really hurts.

Sala put on higher shields -- aiming for an 8-turn market, if possible.

(4) 900 - Worker by MC heads to St. R instead, to irrigate/road into the plains there.

Monotheism is available, but I can't afford it. I do snag another worker from Egypt, though, only WM and 27 gold.

(I) Missed a riot in Sala. I'll up lux tax next turn.

(5) 875 - Up lux rate to 20%. Egyptian worker heads to hill on river by NF to start upgrading Sala's shield rate.

Workers by GR were done and move down by A to road/mine as needed.

(I) Russia "invades" with a settler/warrior pair. Chinese join Pyramids parade.

(6) 850 - Lotsa roads ordered.

Buy a worker off Cathy for WM and 33 gold (gave a little extra to her to keep her nice while we're so unprepared for war -- we can switch over rapidly at this point, though).

That worker goes to NW of NF to help irrigate/road towards St. R.

(I) Russians don't leave. OS finishes granary, begins market.

(7) 825 - Worker climbs iron mountain, will road soon. Others road/irrigate as makes sense.

NF is due to grow and completes its granary this turn. I modify it so that it doesn't grow this turn, saving us 8 food. Sala gets the flood plain for one turn.

(I) Russia continues moving north. NF completes granary and begins worker. St. R completes temple, begins catapult.

(8) 800 - Workers from cow split to do more squares more efficiently. Scout enters Catt. Worker begins roading iron.

I don't want the Russians settling the north. There's one square NE of GR they might settle. I cross my fingers and ask Cathy to remove her troops. She goes to cautious but does so. WHEW! But, @#)($*&@#()$&, they get removed to one little no-culture square further along their path. NOT what I had in mind.

(I) A Russian boat puts a settler pair up there anyway. Sigh.

And Catt riots. My headache must be worse than I thought. I make a scientist. Chinese start Great Wall.

(9) 775 - Workers do their things -- roading, moving to new locations as expected.

(I) Russians settle Sverd... up north, where I feared they might. NF completes worker, begins settler (possibly just as a spare).

(10) 750 - A couple workers start mining a gold hill by A, as it might want those shields/trade arrows at some point. Worker in NF moves to another flood plain, as it's underdeveloped right now. The worker by St. Regis is just roading plains and moving SE towards the gap in the mountains, expecting to save movement on irrigating its way back.

Russia has the Republic AND Monotheism and nobody else does. Republic would be very nice, but I don't think it's worth WM and all 22 gpt we make AND all 398 gold we have. Not even close, really.

I do buy an updated WM from Russia for 11 gold, though. See the end of the SE peninsula.

NOT a terribly good set of turns. But we're pretty well-positioned to ride out waves for a while. Our lack of horses is a definite concern, though.

Arathorn

Save at http://www.civfanatics.com/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-750bc.zip

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

Sala actually had a lot of options for no shield loss. Only 10 shields had been invested in the Pyramids, so that a spear or an archer wouldn't have wasted shields. Can't argue about a settler, though.

A might need something besides another worker at this point. It's core, so should probably get some infrastructure (buildings) going.

(925) I'm far from convinced of the utility of courthouses close to the capital. In first-ring cities, I would get aqueduct, marketplace, and lots of other things first. Corruption so close to the capital is always low and a courthouse doesn't help THAT much.

(875) Why the MC fascination? That worker would've been much better off irrigating/roading through the mountain pass to St. R. StR, being closer to home, has greater priority. With limited growth until irrigation, it also has higher need (while MC can build a harbor and grow a ton without help). Definitely sub-optimal.

Good choice on the Sala change. A market in the capital ASAP is almost always good. Some of the other first-ring cities (A, OS could/should change, too). NF, even, deserves a marketplace in the relatively near future.

(850) The fastest roading distance between two points is not always a straight line. The best way to connect St. R is via the mountain gap over by NF. Anything else requires a mountain, which is a monumental investment of time on a square that won't be worked for a long time.

Still with the courthouses.

(800) for using the scout to block.

(775) I fully approve of the hiring of a taxman in Catt. Until the roads complete, nothing else makes a whole lot of sense. At least it can support its pop with the two cows.

Save-game notes:

- Courthouse fetish in first-ring cities is probably not good. Second-ring and third-ring cities need it. Cities closest to the capital only suffer minimal waste anyway, and courthouses don't do a whole lot to help with that. I'm not 100% sure of this, but I don't think the upkeep cost and the build time is justified by the benefit. I can be shown otherwise, though....
- I'd've put your city (Akwesasne) two NW of its current position -- on the other side of the iron mountain. This gets another grassland in range (less waste) and should help culturally seal the borders faster. It's a very narrow decision, though, and might be as much an issue of asthetics as "good" tactics.
- MC fetish at the expense of St. R, T, NF is bad. All three are closer and need help at least as much as MC. Priorities for the workers saves a bunch.
- Catt grew a lot -- on high food the whole time.

Ending notes:

- Solid, unspectacular
- Republic, when shopped, will be worth the price. But it's NOT worth all our gold and gpt.
- No major sightings.

Arathorn

 

[Jbob42]

Iroquois Emperor Training 730BC ( 9 turns only)
Jbob42 Shadow Turn

Preturn:
F7!!
Reluctantly change Pyramids to a marketplace.
move 1 MP from SR, move toward OS.
change NF to worker to finish irrigation there and also help T
Catt citizen to cow (although it doesnt matter this turn).
Turn lux to 10% (it was only up so Sala could push the pyramids).
Hire tax collector in sala (just for this turn as shields are maxxed)
change A citizen over to bonus grass.
(i) nothing much

1 710 BC
sala completes marketplace. start swordsman. take citizen off of irrigated
flood plan. to forest. Give floodplain to NF.
worker N. of sala (with 2 irrigators) roads.
south warrior fortifies.
scout moves adjacent to moscow - spots a reg spear defending.
Catta worker roads.
warrior moves NW to block russia settler.
spear moves SW to block russia settler.
Akwesasne founded! temple ordered.
diplo-
Russia still wont give monotheism.
(i) nothing much
Sala riots?? i forgot that i was going to turn the taxman off.
i was hoping for a weed free round too
taxman becomes an entertainer.
Catt riots?? there are 3 content citizens and 1 scientist - why did it riot?
scientist becomes an entertainer.

2 690 BC
2 irrigators road - road finishes. freed up worker moves to floodplain NF
new NF worker moves to other flood plain.
warrior moves S on cow mine - will become MP in Catta.
spear stays put to block russia
Catta jungle worker clears jungle
scout climbs mountains... spots connected russian horses.

diplo:
ahh russian will trade finally after egypt discovers mono.
Its 2gpt cheaper from egypt, so ill go there.
China and India still dont know it. hmm.... China has gold,
India has TheRepublic. I will try..
Egypt: Monotheism for WM, 3gpt + 350gp
China: 110gp for Monotheism
India: 11gp + Republic for Monotheism

So we basically got Monotheism and Republic for 229gp + 3gpt

Revolution time? I think so- i definitely despise despotism. Since we are buying
techs, i think Republic would be acceptible. We can also start
buying improvements (esp. in akwasasne)
A couple of cities need help not rioting during anarchy.
(i) Republic Provclaimed! Rioting subsides.
haha! Persia (not even on our continent) builds the pyramids

3 670 BC
Lux to 20% allows all entertainers to return to real work.
Catta requires a scientist until road is completed next turn.
spear and warrior block russia settler against the coast.
NF workers road. workers N of sala move NW to irrigate next turn.
scout SW
A worker SE to mine and road the grassland.
buy temple in Awk for 116gp. plan for harbor next and then worker.
diplo
no workers or anything even tech
(i) all our neighbors are working the Great library - a couple doing oracle too.
both MC and Akw start on Harbors. MC is stuck at pop3 unless forest clear.

4 650 BC
scout climbs mountain spots reg spear in kiev
spear S to block russia, who has turned arround.
warrior into Catta as MP -- wait we are republic now- doh. anyway, we can upgrade
these in 2 turns when barracks completes there.
road to SR complete. all 3 workers there irrigate
mine complete at MC, worker moves N to road - eyeing the grassland that MC
will get after expansion -- and eventually road to
Centralia.
warrior arrives in OS.
(i) A completes spearman. starts swordsman.

5 630BC
Catta finally connected. Growth in 2 turns with extra citizen working grassland.
catta worker mines bonus grass (actually an A tile)
vet spear fortifies in Catta - reg warrior also
reg warrior in OS fortifies.

hmm.. with the mine finished in sala - i looked and we needed 2 shields for
the swordsman even though we were producing 15 -- i couldnt take this
and ordered up a cathedral instead. At 4-1-4 (happy-content-unhappy),
we will need it and its only 4 turns away (growth in 8).
sala worker S to road mine.
scout SE
MC worker road over forest.
A spear fortifies there.
(i) barb triremes
NF completes worker. hmm if i work irr desert, will grow in 1 turn! so i do that.
next worker in 5 instead of 3.
Catta completes barracks starts Swordsman.

6 610BC
Sala worker roads.
SR irrigation crew moves NW and irrigates.
both NF workers finish road on floodplains - begin to irrigate.
new worker heads toward T
galley arrives home in T. The people rejoice at stories of huge mammals called
"elephants".
scout moves E2 - sees several chinese units in russian lands.
(i) OS completes swordsman; granary orderd.

7 590BC
OS worker moves N to sala hill to mine - OS doesnt need improvement for a while.
T worker mvoes to plains.
scout notices reg spear in st.pete. also notices road network complete.
(i) Akw expands! we are putting pressure on them now. Grabs another elephant.

8 570BC
scout notices reg spear in Smolensk.
T worker irrigates.
galley restored to hp, aways a return trip to Akw
sala worker (from os) mines.
SR irr crew moves NE to irrigate and road.
A's new citi was working the mountain? change this to the gold hill.
A needs an aqueduct!
(i) Sala completes cathedral, +2 happy! I switch wheat with NF that will allow
everyone to complete their projects in same time, but get Sala to grow
in 1 instead of 4 turns. NF will grow in 2 instead of 1.
NF completes worker - actually - now it will still grow in 1 turn!
NF starts barracks. Now i know this was weed before, but we have 2 roaded
floodplains coming online which will be great commerce and
additional growth - need to give the worker producing a break so we
can take advantage of the new tiles.

9 550BC
wait -- i reconsider - NF starts harbor- this way we can fill the land tiles
that are great and then start working the sea tiles as well. NF
should be size 12 in no time. then can start pumping out the workers
again.
switch 1 citi in NF to work irrigated desert - this gets 1 extra shield for the
harbor and doesnt waste any food.
new NF worker: moves to help sala hill mine builder
sala worker moves Sw to mine last open grassland.
scout S

hmm A can work both gold hills this turn without wasting shields this turn
or food (at max pop). this nets us +4gpt-not bad! now- when we start
working the aqueduct, the extra shield may be important.
(end of turn)


If this had been a real turn, player suggestions--

Next player would be told to rearrange sala / NF mix. NF could get the wheat
back and also work the irrigated floodplain again -- max growth. Sala could
get its mine back and maybe finish the sword in 1 more turn.

Also player would have 195 gold - enough to upgrade all the front line warriors
to SWORDS - this would give us 9 SWORDS that could be combined and sent south to
Russia. I avoided any gpt deals with them. We probably need to get defense in Akw
first.

Science rate really slow - checked diplo every turn.







http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Jbob42-550bc.ziphttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Jbob42-550bc.zip

 

[Arathorn]

(0) 730 - Nation review is the first thing to do. In SGs, this is almost a given. It's a good habit for SP games, too, though, as a periodic review often leads to better decisions.

Sala from Pyramids to marketplace.
NF barracks to granary.
A spear to market.
OS sword to granary.

WM and 230 gold to India for the Republic.

28 units and 34 pop. Close but calls for an immediate uprising. Revolt, intending to go to Republic ASAP. In general, if pop > units, Republic is a pretty good place to be. Happiness will become critical soon -- especially in Sala.

Revolt.

A couple of cities (Centralia and Sala) revolt. I never can remember exactly when the new government is started. In one respect, it seems like you get the production of the new government right away. But happiness is still checked as if it were anarchy? I never get it quite right.

That brings me to another point. Perfection, while a nice goal, is far from necessary to dominate, even on emperor. The earlier the move, the more important it is. One lost turn each revolt isn't going to be deadly. If you can perfect that aspect of the game (or another), the others can suffer a bit and you'll still be alright.

(I) Egypt starts GL.

(1) 710 - Sala 4/1/4 happy/content/unhappy. Why did it demonstrate? Sigh. Centralia gets a taxman.

Two workers past gap to St. R irrigate. Akwesasne founded in the south, where the settler stood. Not the happiest about it, but it's not terrible. Temple begun immediately.

Settler block in north with various units, including the scout.

(I) Russia/India start GL.

(2) 690 Road to St. R continues to be built. Continue settler block. Scout out of Russia further to block settler/open spots in our culture.

Catt entertainer changed to taxman.

Not enough $$ to buy temple in Akw. When engaged in a cultural war, it's critical to get as early a start as possible. Not only do cultural buildings double in strength after 1000 years, the earlier start gives more time for culture to build up.

(I) Ship in south sunk by barbs. Sala sword to sword. MC temple to Courthouse. Persians complete Pyramids (Should I gloat here? NAH!).

(3) 670 Irrigate to St. R continues with MANY workers (too many -- need to move some of 'em out next time). Change St. R to work irrigation. Since we have the extra food, we want St. R growing. No sense irrigating there and not using the workers' efforts, is there?

Sword sent to Catt. Mine gold hill by A. Warriors converge on Catt. Scout N.

Buy temple in Akw. I hate to spend in a colony, but it's the only way to survive, really, there. In general, colonies should be left to fend for themselves, while the money gets spent on important projects closer to the core.

Mono shopped to Egypt but not India, who's pretty wealthy. We WAIT.

(I) Akw starts warrior. Egypt joins GL race. Russia/India do, too, presumably on cascade from Pyramids.

(4) 650 - Catt connected. Taxman there put on grass (barracks in one turn either way). Workers by St. R. split. One continues to St. R. Two to flood plain by NF. One headed for another Sala hill. Worker by MC to forest -- will chop to speed courthouse.

(I) Sala sword->sword. Catt barracks to courthouse.

(5) 630 - Worker by Sala to road mined grass that wasn't roaded earlier. Now we're wasting the turn from earlier to get back to this square to further improve it.

(I) nada

(6) 610 - Workers work.

(I) Sala sword -> sword.

(7) 590 - Wake warriors in St. R. and Sala and send to OS to be swords on the front when the time comes. This should probably have been done as soon as the revolt to Republic was completed. We'll not be attacking for many years, anyway, though, so it's not a big deal.

(8) 570 - Scout to square NE of GR where Russia might well be headed. We want to block them off from it. Warriors at Catt begin upgrading. 2 of them for 80 gold. More to come.

(I) Sala sword -> sword.

(9) 550 - Upgrades at OS. 7 swords now. About 8-11 more needed for a reasonable assault. Taxman in Sala to prevent riot (no effect on sword time (removed from forest) and little on growth. Fix GR citizen back to fish (barb ship interrupted).

Notes: Irrigation begun by Sala and OS. One of the problems people get into is the despotism mindset that grass never gets irrigated. We have a few cities that can benefit from irrigated grass (and faster growth). Ideally, it would've started a few turns back. Now, it's almost necessary to do some, because growth is still king at this point.

Arathorn

Save at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-550bc.zip

 

[Arathorn]

Inherited: I understand the reluctance to give up on the Pyramids, but there are some things that just don't work as well/easily at upper levels. Knowing when to cut out on a gambit is often worth as much as anything else. The Pyramids just weren't in the cards for us.
The rest of the the changes make good sense. Worker in NF would've been my third choice, but they were all very close.

(710) Sala rioting is bad news. It's our biggest shield producer (~15) and biggest money producer. Keeping Sala up and running is as important as any other two towns, probably. Big here, unfortunately.

Not much clue about Catt. Possibly roads completing in weird times... Arizona_Steve had the same experience you did, so I'm guessing it was just a fluke.

(690) Worker in jungle is weedy, too. There are a lot of good squares near Catt that need improvements first and have higher priority. The better the square produces, the more likely it is to be used and the higher the priority of improving it. Jungle squares take a long time to clear -- time that would be better spent improving other squares. Clear here.

Very good trades here. I paid last-civ prices for Republic to get it so we could revolt ASAP. If you can play middle man (like you did here), you can often get even better deals. I like your trades. on this front.

And revolting right away is definitely the right thing to do. Another positive from the turn. And I have the same problem with riots at the very end of anarchy. I never remember the orde correctly. It can be prevented by making entertainers during the anarchy period, but sometimes they seem to be needed and other times not.

Pyramids were not gonna happen for us by any stretch.

(670) One scientist working inconsistently isn't going to get us anything. Catt should be running a taxman for its few turns.

Why roading by NF instead of irrigating? We still want tons of growth. Irrigation is still more important fast than roads.

One other nit -- MC *can* grow beyond size 3 without a harbor. That's why we built the temple -- to get a border expansion. The expansion brings in a whale and another grassland. Harbor still might very well be the right build, though.

(650) Let the Russian pair go south, for heaven's sakes! Out of our territory is where we want them.

(630) I kep Sala at 15+ shields to get swords every two turns. Getting a cathedral was going to be necessary -- with us only having two luxuries so far. Good switch, instead of wasting ~13 shields. Adapting and maximizing the good is what this training is all about.

At some point, we need two more settlers. NF is the natural place for those. We're at about the right worker load, at this point. They're pretty much keeping up with pop growth, which is our goal. I would advocate a settler or a granary in NF. Worker isn't a BAD choice, per se -- just probably not the optimal one at this point.

General -- I like using the scout to ... well, scout. He's gaining some good info -- Chinese in Russia, regular spear defenders everywhere -- current road network. Good use of him.

(570) If you want more commerce out of NF (a good idea, BTW), a marketplace would make a lot more sense than barracks. We're gonna continue to need workers for a while and we have other cities better poised to do military. Market, granary, or settler would be better than barracks in NF. Still weedy, but not as weedy as before.

(550) Harbor can wait, so should. There are a few land tiles that are better than bonus coast, so I still claim minor weedage.

195 gold is enough to upgrade precisely 4 warriors to swords. It costs 40 gold to do each upgrade. 9 swords would cost 360 gold. Now, I agree with the Monotheism/Republic purchase, but it did crimp the upgrade cash flow. And some of that should be earmarked for a harbor in Akw....

Save game notes:
- The sword and warrior fortified on our border with Russia might make you feel good, but they're dreadfully exposed should Russia choose to attack and are out of position for us if we would like to attack. Unless there's a pressing reason (actual combat, barb hunting, defending worker), military units should stay in cities.
- A citizen on unimproved grass? When there are better squares around? Not good. Might have been an AI replace, though, if the Russia settler pair disrupted us.
- Centralia specialist (correct call, BTW) should be a taxman, not a scientist. We're not getting anything in 40 turns.
- Akw needs a defender, too -- at least a warrior. This is probably even a higher priority than getting the harbor built.
- Forest by MC should probably have been chopped first (to help speed the build along and to get more food for MC) and then roaded. Much more efficient all the way around.
- Your income is low -- another 10 gpt could have been achieved during these 10 turns.

Arathorn

 

[Jbob42]

Jbob42
LotR3 Emperor Training Day
550BC-350BC

Pre-turn:
hmm. zoom to every city - make some citizen changes as suggested.

1 530BC
stevetown to produce harbor - 80 turns.
sala worker to mine.
settler moves along road to the south.
3 workers by catta perform improvements.
warrior on iron mountain fortifies.
diplo - nothing going on with anyone.
St.R changed to Granary.
giving NF the mine - to complete granary quickly and get back to pumping out
workers. sala doesnt need it as its completeing collusseum now
(i) not much.

2 510BC
warrior pillages iron road.
sala switched to warrior - it can pump 1 per turn. at +42gpt, we are also saving
enough for 1 upgrade per turn. This means we are getting 1 sword /
turn instead of producing in 3.
A worker to bonus grassland.
GR worker - road.
MC worker W to grass
scout south (misclicked last time and sent him extra square N)
St.R workers split up - 2 and 1 to forests to clear.
NF worker to unimproved floodplain.
diplo -
argh, missed chance to broker monotheism to India - who now also has
monarchy! they must have traded it to egypt for mono.
we can sell monarchy to russia, and monarchy and mono to china,
but neither of them has any cash
(i) egypt is roading our elephants for us
Moscow builds the great library! china starts a wall, others to oracle, gardens
3 490BC
A worker (bonus) mines.
warrior fortifies on mountain.
NF worker Irr.
MC worker mines.
Hmmm.. we are republic.. so MP arent needed. I start moving extra warriors
to OS- where we will form a grand Army of the Republic to fight the
insurgent systems.
(i) nothing.

4 470BC
OS worker roads ontop of mine.
cata worker moves to A's open grass.
(i) GR completes harbor - moves to aqueduct.
Steves expands!
Russians are building Sistenes!

5 450BC
spearman from OS is moving into jungle to escort settler.
A worker mines.
OS warriors fortify.
NF citizen to flood plain (instead of irr desert)- stupid AI.
(i) Russians + Indians building Hanging Gardens.
OS and GR expand!

6 430BC
not much. no workers to move
movement of warriors to OS. We have 9 there and 1 on the way.
diplo -
not much going on in the world.
(i) T completes temple, orders up aqueduct. - may need to be rushed in 20 turns.

7 410BC
worker up iron mountain - time to reconnect!
Catta worker roads southeast toward new jungle city spot?
NF worker roads.
hmm had to fix NF citizen again. sala is at max POP!, so i opened another
floodplain for NF, but it wont need it until next time.
(i) Rome! completes the oracle. No telling how we know this info

8 390BC
Iron is being reconnected! 9 turns.
Akwesasne founded! spear joins it.
St.R workers road and irrigate plains square.
GR worker N to road last incense there before moving on.
Catta worker roads forest.
diplo-
wow- china just got caught up big time. they have feudalism.
pikes will make taking russia harder- we have to move.
WAIT- pikes require Iron
we get a WM update from China - island to the west with an Indian
city on it! updated terrain in all other civs.
(i) Catta riots - damn, the one time i dont check all the cities.
England! completes the Great Wall. China - Sun Tzu's

9 370BC
MC worker roads. A worker roads. GR worker roads. scout N.

Hmm Russia has Iron as Smolensk. SOo they can build pikes.
(i) Thebes produces Hanging Gardens.

10 350BC
Sala worker up gold hill to mine. oops! minor weed - i thought that gold mine
was shared between sala and A - just realized right after i hit M, that
it wasnt.
Hmmmm.. NF is about to complete a granary - so i move all units off of production.
With this much food, why do we need a granary? we will get to size 12 and
have huge over production. I decide to switch to marketplace and keep
another citizen on the mines. This reduces build time by 2, but still
grows in 2.
NF worker is going to move to the sala hill.
diplo-
aww.. trade routes just opened up and China will give us Horses for Incense
and 90gp - wow! this would leave a big decision for the next player.

(end of turn)

At this point, i would probably suggest we just continue the next 7 turns producing
warriors - this will get us 20 warriors (mostly vets) that could be upgrade
to swords on turn 8 we have just the right ammount of gp for this as well.
Next player would take tiblisi on turn 10!. Moscow would fall
on turn 2-4 of the next player's turn. We would then have our own horses,
Russia would be in ruin- and we could time our GA with our own UU.



Shadow Save Game

 

[Arathorn]

Jbob42 review:

(530) - Stevetown should definitely be producing a harbor -- and it shouldn't take 80 turns.

Where is the settler heading? I guess I'll found out once I open the savegame. But the best spots for new cities are both in the north, at this point, to lock our borders and give us some extra value in those areas.

(510) Pillaging the iron road? I agree it was hooked up prematurely, but now is the time we really are going to start needing iron. In reality, the time for a swordsman-oriented war has passed. That's probably a good thing, as we never really had enough units to do so. Feudalism has to be right around the corner and chivalry won't be long in coming. We have a second iron source that we might be able to export (if/when we get them both hooked up), and will probably need to be making pikemen soon. At this point, the 11 worker turns to reconnect the iron are probably wasteful. This is weed, at this point in the game.

Yes, we can essentially get 1 sword/turn and that's reasonably good, but swords struggle against fortified pikes and they have no upgrade path. Long-term (which is what really matters), this is going to hurt an awful lot more than it helps. Also, Sala should be producing ~15 shields, so we could get a sword every other turn (saving our cash for more important things, like tech/horses/etc.). I had no difficulty getting a MW every 2nd turn in my game, after the colosseum was completed.

(i) Yes, Egypt is roading the elephants for us (a few anyway), but you never ship them home (no harbor), so it's of very limited value. I was actually able to trade Ivory to Egypt, even though their own source was hooked up soon afterwards! Getting two (or three) luxes home is well worth rushing a harbor -- even in a "colony" that would normally be suffering for attention.

(450) Where is that settler heading? Why isn't he locking up our remaining adequate lands in the north?

(410) OK, now's a good time to examine that iron disconnect in a bit more detail. You're spending 11 worker turns (1 to climb and 10 to road) to get it all done -- turns which could be spent improving other lands. The net effect is 11 worker turns lost, 7 extra swords and 600 gold to be spent. That's AWFULLY expensive -- too much so to truly be useful. This is truly major .

(390) More importantly than feudalism/iron for a bit, pikes require either time/shields or barracks/cash, which Cathy seems to be short on at the moment. But they do have iron -- and we will probably see a few pikemen, at least, if/when we attack.

(350) Very minor weed with the worker, as the gold mines near A are currently being used and will be very productive for a long time. Yeah, it should've waited, as Sala needs more squares ASAP and A can wait a bit, but it's certainly not major weed. Overdeveloping the grass west of A before the aqueduct is in place (like I did) is much weedier.

No granary in NF? Producing a worker every turn is still marginally possible and tremendously valuable. Fast growth is ALWAYS important. At the same time, I can't argue too much with a marketplace, as that is also critical infrastructure -- and it'll help with happiness. No weed call.

20 swords would be highly unlikely to be enough to crush Russia to the degree which we would like, at this point. Reasonable estimates are that Russia has 6 defensive units in the three cities that border us and another 6 in her capital, plus an offensive force of ~10 units. Even with good rolls, Tblisi and Moscow would probably be the full extent of 20 swords -- and leaving little room for error, as we would have VERY few defenders.

If (when) we go to war with Russia, we want at least 4 cities getting us wine and horses. Probably an alliance with Egypt to completely finish Cathy off would make sense...we'll see what happens when the time gets closer. But war in 8 turns is just asking for a serious smackdown.

Savegame notes:
- Harbor in Stevetown needed rushing a LONG time ago.
- GR citizen should move to forest from a higher food/less shield source as it's maxed on pop and needs the extra shield it can get from doing that.
- All citizens still misguided. Can work the gold hill instead of the grass for no loss in practical food but an increase in shields and commerce.
- Seeing your Akw location brings to mind the great Charis -- in his early days of heavy . A city where you put it is a bad risk to take. The risk is not TOO high as the cultural presence of Russia isn't overwhelming and we're a few squares from Moscow still. It is a third assaultable city for war with Russia, though, which is bad. What's more troubling, though, is that the probable gains from this are so small. Without a zillion workers (who still have better things to be doing), it'll be stuck at size 3 with one shield for a LONG time. If there's coal there and it were our only source, that'd be a lucky break and resolve the move, but we should have that area WELL under control by then. Now, it's just putting down a semi-hard-to-defend city with little to no perceptible benefit.
- At one point, you said you were roading a jungle towards Awk. It's nearly never worth roading jungle immediately. Chop it down first and THEN road -- it's much faster and makes the square semi-useful. BUT, you were actually roading a forest, not a jungle, and that can be beneficial, as forests are reasonable shield-producers (pre-RRs and with few hills/mountains around -- like Catt). No here and probably a faint
- Watch the savegame name -- your zip file was right, but the savegame file had no shadow-Jbob in it, confusing me briefly.

Arathorn

 

[Zed-F]

One valid reason to disconnect the iron in the early middle ages is to give yourself more time to build horsemen. This is only true if you have Chivalry or expect to get it soon, and have a robust enough economy to be able to afford upgrades (and/or have Leo's.) If those conditions are true, you can insta-build a massive knight stack very quickly. If not, then it's better to leave the iron connected and build knights with straight production. I haven't been following your game closely enough to know which is true here. If you're still struggling a bit to keep up on tech then you probably can't afford the upgrades anyway.

EDIT: Ah, I see why the comment about swords, jbob mentioned them in his post. Yes, I wouldn't disconnect iron just to build warriors and upgrade to swords, that's pretty much a waste of cash since swords are pretty easy to build in the first place and are a dead-end unit in the second. I'd rather go with Pikes and Knights instead. Combat-wise, the knight is far more effective since it gets the retreat ability and is better suited to a rapid offensive war, but it can be hard to build in any but your best cities due to the 70 shield cost, so cash spent upgrading horses will give a better yield for longer than cash spent upgrading warriors.

 

[Arathorn]

Chivalry hasn't been discovered yet. That's our route to building horsemen (mounted warriors, actually) even with iron connected. We can wait to decide when to buy into Chivalry -- probably. If not, our MWs are pretty good units for a while. I'd rather have MWs and pikemen than MWs and spearmen....

And we have no native source of horses and I *just* scrounged a source over in the official game thread. Not quite as ideal as your (excellently managed, BTW) training day game. Nor do we have the cash to really do upgrades. We're not even making 80gpt at this point.

The other thing is that there's an AI civ with no iron and we have two sources.... I agree that there are times/reasons to disconnect iron in the MA. This is not one of them, though -- not the time (no chivalry yet) nor the reason (warrior -> swordman upgrade). Thanks for keeping me honest, though.

Arathorn

 

[Zed-F]

Incidentally, Arathorn, did you get my email reply to your PM?