ls612's C2C Units

[ls612]

We've went past the Overly complicated gameplay mechanism limit long ago. This mod is now top heavy and teetering. The "crash" will Not be pretty. Luckily I saved some decent early versions so I have a parachute.

This plane ride is in Stall Mode now and about to take a Hammerhead dive. Pull some of this overly complicated game bogging mess out of this Mod before it crashes, Please! It's suffocating now.

And to those that say the Long Freeze caused this, baloney! The long freeze exposed an underlying cancer that has been here for sometime. And longtime modders are now thinking twice about the cost.

I've been a Long time supporter of this mod, but I'm starting to choke.

JosEPh

I don't like this complicated intercept stuff either, it makes little sense to me. G-E's post clarified it somewhat. I'll probably end up just giving every plane an intercept chance below 100%, the scaling factor in strength for the planes IMO should mainly be their combat strength.

As for the parachute if/when your prediction comes to pass, I certainly hope that Koshling comes back and gets his project off of the ground, otherwise I would probably just fork C2C and do what I could to fix it. Tall order though given that my SDK skills are quite limited.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You know just what to say to brighten our day.

Yeah I know, I'm the "black sheep" of C2C remember, that malcontent inquisitor.

I havn't said "Bah Humbug" yet though, oops just did.

Seriously I have not played C2C for over a week now. The Traits and Combat mod blowups have kind of soured the milk a bit. Probably should've just faded away for awhile instead of posting my "sentiments".

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I hope you realize that it was RoM/AND or something around there that modified the interception rules. That had absolutely nothing to do with me and I was actually (in case you misread me there) proposing to vastly simplify it because I think it lacks an elegance of design, which I think makes us in agreement on that issue... I had not realized how, erm... irrational the current intercept coding really is.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes simplicity is better. Not just for the Interception code but for Civics, Traits, and a whole lot more.

When things get too complicated they break much faster and are harder to repair. That's my point. I just happened to voice my dissatisfaction over the mod's recent distractions and overcompensations in this thread. Should've probably made a new one.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok I have been checking your work and I still find the following things ...

Double Biplane
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter AND Prop Tactical Bomber (not Propeller Naval Fighter)
- Increase range to 6

Propeller Naval Fighter
Upgrades to: Jet Naval Fighter (not Early Jet Fighter)

Stealth Fighter (UNITCLASS_STEALTH_FIGHTER)
Rename to: Early Stealth Bomber
Note: Since we already have a Stealth Fighter (UNITCLASS_MODERN_FIGHTER)

F-14 Tomcat
- Add American culture to resource requirements.
- Make a national unit with a limit of 15.
- Remove the Navy SEAL unit.

Propeller Fighter
- Strength 30
- Range 8
- 5% damage to city defenses

Jet Fighter
- Range 12
- 10% damage to city defenses

Modern Fighter
- Strength 80
- Range 14
- 10% chance to evade interception
- 10% damage to city defenses

Stealth Fighter (UNITCLASS_MODERN_FIGHTER)
- Strength 100
- 12% damage to city defenses
- Can perform Carrier operations

Jet Interceptor
- Strength 40
- Range 14
- +100% vs Air units

Modern Interceptor
- Strength 50
- Range 16
- +100% vs Air units
- 15% chance to evade interception

Stealth Interceptor
- Strength 60
- Range 16
- 30% chance to evade interception

Seaplane
- 5% damage to city defenses
- +100% vs ships
- Can perform Carrier operations

Propeller Naval Fighter
- 10% damage to city defenses
- +100% vs ships

Jet Naval Fighter
- Strength 54
- Range 9
- 14% damage to city defenses
- +50% vs ships

Modern Naval Fighter
- Strength 72
- 10% chance to evade interception
- 18% damage to city defenses
- +25% vs ships

And some other stuff ...

Strategic Bomber (UNITCLASS_LONG_RANGE_BOMBER)
- Please remove the unit. It is more or less the same unit as the Jet Bomber.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

I've made the changes listed with the following changes.

1. I think that we should leave the SEAL as the American UU. Yes, the f14 is rather uniquely American, but so is a special operations group on the caliber of the SEALs. There just isn't another group on the planet as good as they are at what they do. Besides, ever since May of last year when people think of American strength they think of the SEALs, in addition to our other strengths.

2. Instead of needlessly complicating things by making the Interceptors have low strength and +% to Air Units, I made it so that they had higher strength, no domain bonus, and lower bombing levels.

@JosEPh:

I think that the concepts of Evasion and Interception have been around since BtS (maybe even since Civ 4 itself), so those mechanics should stay. Is there something specific about them you feel is too complex in C2C?

 

[JosEPh_II]

No. No real beef with Interception and evasion. I never get to play with them anyway.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

So intlidave PMed back and as I suspected his changes basically re-made the aircraft. Which means we need to remove stats as well. SO here goes ...

Double Biplane
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter AND Prop Tactical Bomber
- Increase range to 6

Propeller Fighter
- Add This Unit is Tradable
- Remove +25% vs Air Units
- Remove 1 First Strike

Early Jet Fighter
- Remove 50% vs Propeller Bomber
- Remove 50% vs Early Bomber

Jet Fighter
- Increase Strength to 60
- Remove +33% vs City Attack
- Remove +10% vs Wooden Ships
- Remove +25% vs Land Units
- Remove Cause Collateral Damage (Max 50% to % Units)

Modern Fighter
- Remove 1 First Strike
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers
- Remove +33% vs Air Units

Stealth Fighter
- Remove +15% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Hypersonic Fighter
- Remove +25% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Orbital Fighter
- Remove 2-3 First Strikes
- Remove +25% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Ok so that's the main Fighter Line. I will stop here and wait until you finish these.
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

 

[ls612]

@ls612

So intlidave PMed back and as I suspected his changes basically re-made the aircraft. Which means we need to remove stats as well. SO here goes ...

Double Biplane
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter AND Prop Tactical Bomber
- Increase range to 6

Propeller Fighter
- Add This Unit is Tradable
- Remove +25% vs Air Units
- Remove 1 First Strike

Early Jet Fighter
- Remove 50% vs Propeller Bomber
- Remove 50% vs Early Bomber

Jet Fighter
- Increase Strength to 60
- Remove +33% vs City Attack
- Remove +10% vs Wooden Ships
- Remove +25% vs Land Units
- Remove Cause Collateral Damage (Max 50% to % Units)

Modern Fighter
- Remove 1 First Strike
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers
- Remove +33% vs Air Units

Stealth Fighter
- Remove +15% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Hypersonic Fighter
- Remove +25% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Orbital Fighter
- Remove 2-3 First Strikes
- Remove +25% City Attack
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Ok so that's the main Fighter Line. I will stop here and wait until you finish these.
- Remove +50% vs Bombers

Done now. Only change from dave's suggestions was that I made the Jet Fighter have 55 strength, it is more in the middle that way strength-wise.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Is there any particular reason Intercept chance can't be Intercept Chance - Evasion Chance? That seems like by far the simplest and most intuitive way to handle it on the player end, but I don't know if the code would be somehow problematic.

So:

--------

Bomber A: Evasion 30%
Bomber B: Evasion 50%
Fighter X: Intercept 90%
Fighter Y: Intercept 120%

Fighter X has a 60% chance of intercepting Bomber A and a 40% chance of intercepting Bomber B.

Fighter Y has a 90% chance of intercepting Bomber A and a 70% chance of intercepting Bomber B.

--------

Provided that's possible, it seems vastly more intuitive than a system where they are two independent, unrelated checks.

I like the idea of variable intercept and evasion rates for several reasions.

It allows you to start off with a low chance to intercept (low evade % as well, but because the intercept % is generally going to be less than 50% it doesn't matter) but with aircraft not having that much impact damage-wise.

Then you get more powerful aircraft with the introduction of early bombers/zeppelins/whatever and it encourages you to beeline Radar to boost your intercept chance. Radar was a major have/have not tech and deserves similar pride of place here, not to mention I consider it good gameplay to introduce a threat, let it have its day, and then introduce the counter a little further down the tech tree.

THEN you get stealth technology to counter radar, for a while, and as you reach the near-future era better interceptors come online that can break stealth as the cycle continues.

Evasion and Interception also seem like good promotion options for aircraft, so there are viable things to give them besides MOAR POWER (and a bit of operational range).

 

[God-Emperor]

The evasion is currently effectively multiplicative relative to interception. The chance of being intercepted is really the chance of not evading times the interceptor's chance of intercepting.

Using your examples:
Bomber A: Evasion 30% (which is 70% to not evade)
Bomber B: Evasion 50% (which is also 50% to not evade)
Fighter X: Intercept 90%
Fighter Y: Intercept 120% (limited to 100%, currently)

gives:
Fighter X has a 63% chance (.7*.9) of intercepting Bomber A and a 45% chance (.5*.9) of intercepting Bomber B.

Fighter Y has a 70% chance (.7*1, it would be 84% from .7*1.2 if the full value were used) of intercepting Bomber A and a 50% chance (.5*1, it would be 60% from .7*1.2 if the full value were used) of intercepting Bomber B.

This is not a great situation, but it isn't terrible.

The main thing I'd adjust is where the interception limit is applied: I'd suggest either removing it from the calculation (keeping it only for promotion availability, as it used to be) or (possibly a better idea) moving it from the function that returns the unit's maximum interception chance to the function that returns the unit's current interception chance so that it is applied only after the damage related reduction instead of before that and perhaps removing it from the promotion check (allowing you to still take interception increasing promotions if they would put you over the limit). This would give values over 100% some use as they would give higher interception chances when the interceptor is damaged, unless it is still over 100%.

Going to a subtractive system is also a viable option, but harder to explain. You'd need to check the descriptions used to make it clear that the evasion is not the chance to evade but only a direct reduction of the chance to intercept. With this method you still need to limit the interception chance to 100%. If you don't and the chance of interception is 120% then a 20% evasion chance does not give you a 20% chance of evading interception, it gives you a 0% chance of evading interception since the resulting interception chance is still 100%. So the interception chance should still be limited to 100% (possibly after applying the damage adjustment) before applying the evasion chance to it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is there any particular reason Intercept chance can't be Intercept Chance - Evasion Chance? That seems like by far the simplest and most intuitive way to handle it on the player end, but I don't know if the code would be somehow problematic.

So:

--------

Bomber A: Evasion 30%
Bomber B: Evasion 50%
Fighter X: Intercept 90%
Fighter Y: Intercept 120%

Fighter X has a 60% chance of intercepting Bomber A and a 40% chance of intercepting Bomber B.

Fighter Y has a 90% chance of intercepting Bomber A and a 70% chance of intercepting Bomber B.

--------

Provided that's possible, it seems vastly more intuitive than a system where they are two independent, unrelated checks.

I like the idea of variable intercept and evasion rates for several reasions.

It allows you to start off with a low chance to intercept (low evade % as well, but because the intercept % is generally going to be less than 50% it doesn't matter) but with aircraft not having that much impact damage-wise.

Then you get more powerful aircraft with the introduction of early bombers/zeppelins/whatever and it encourages you to beeline Radar to boost your intercept chance. Radar was a major have/have not tech and deserves similar pride of place here, not to mention I consider it good gameplay to introduce a threat, let it have its day, and then introduce the counter a little further down the tech tree.

THEN you get stealth technology to counter radar, for a while, and as you reach the near-future era better interceptors come online that can break stealth as the cycle continues.

Evasion and Interception also seem like good promotion options for aircraft, so there are viable things to give them besides MOAR POWER (and a bit of operational range).

I'd prefer this method too. I agree with God-Emperor on changing the text on evasion as a result, but I wouldn't be against a higher % chance of interception than 100% Just means that equivalent era air power would need stronger evasion chances to compensate. Additionally, as he mentioned before, if the interceptor is damaged, that reduces the chance of interception too (and should also do the same for the evasion value.) This means that eventually, stealth can completely obsolete early forms of interception (by being higher than the chance of interception, thus making the chance of interception 0% for say, a machine gunner to intercept a stealth bomber) but allows better intercept tech to keep up too.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok first fixes of stuff we already went over ...

Double Biplane
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter AND Propeller Tactical Bomber
- Increase range to 6

Propeller Fighter
- Add This Unit is Tradable

Jet Fighter
- Add This Unit is Tradable
- Remove Cause Collateral Damage (Max 50% to % Units)

Modern Fighter
- Remove 1 First Strike
- Remove +33% vs Air Units

And for the Interceptors ...

Jet Interceptor
- Add This Unit is Tradable
- Increase to Strength 40
- Increase to Range 14
- Remove Can destroy Tile Improvements and Bomb City Defenses (-10%/Turn)
- Add +100% vs Air Units

Modern Interceptor
- Reduce to Strength 50
- Increase to Range 16
- Remove +100% vs Early Bombers
- Remove +50% vs Bombers
- Remove Can destroy Tile Improvements and Bomb City Defenses (-6%/Turn)
- Add +100% vs Air Units

Stealth Interceptor
- Add This Unit is Tradable
- Reduce to Strength 60
- Remove 1-3 First Strikes
- Remove +50% vs Land Units
- Remove +66% vs City Attack
- Remove Can destroy Tile Improvements and Bomb City Defenses (-9%/Turn)

Good luck with these. I will post more once you finish this set.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

So are you still going to finish working on these or do I need to do them?

 

[ls612]

@ls612

So are you still going to finish working on these or do I need to do them?

No I'll finish them.

Edit: Done with those now. Only difference was that instead of giving the Interceptors +100% vs Air units I just doubled their strength, they can't attack other things now anyways.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok same drill. Stuff we went over and then new stuff.

Propeller Fighter
- Add "This Unit is Tradable"

And for Naval Fighter ...

Seaplane
- Reduce to Strength 20
- Reduce to Bomb City Defenses (-5%/Turn)
- Increase to 100% vs Water Units.
- Add -20% vs Steam Ships
- Add -40% vs Diesel Ships
- Add -80% vs Nuclear Ships
- Add "Can perform Carrier Operations"

Propeller Naval Fighter
- Increase to Bomb City Defenses (-10%/Turn)
- Remove +50% vs Early Bombers

Modern Naval Fighter
- Increase to Bomb City Defenses (-18%/Turn)

Ok I will stop here for now. Thanks in Advance!

 

[strategyonly]

I believe someone just placed a Davey Crockett in the art area, i am more than positive he is already in the units listing, (yeppers just looked and see attached) unless this is a different dds style?

 

[Hydromancerx]

What unit already uses the Davy Crockett model? A hero unit?

 

[ls612]

I believe someone just placed a Davey Crockett in the art area, i am more than positive he is already in the units listing, (yeppers just looked and see attached) unless this is a different dds style?

I added that because Hydro wanted me to use it for the Game Hunter. Is it used for something else?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok same drill. Stuff we went over and then new stuff.

Seaplane
- Increase to 100% vs Water Units.
- Add -20% vs Steam Ships
- Add "Can perform Carrier Operations"

Airship
Upgrades to: Propeller Bomber (Not Propeller Tactical Bomber)

Now for Tactical Bombers ...

Propeller Tactical Bomber
Upgrades to: Jet Tactical Bomber (Not Propeller Bomber)
- Reduce to Strength 35
- Increase to Range 10
- Add +50% vs Gunpowder Units
- Add +50% vs Wheeled Units
- Add +50% vs Tracked Units
- Add +50% vs Siege Units
- Bomb City Defenses (10% per Turn)
- Causes Collateral Damage (max 100% to 1 Unit)
- Can Evade Interception (10%)
- Add "Can perform Carrier Operations"

Jet Tactical Bomber
- Reduce to Strength 60
- Increase to Range 12
- Add +50% vs Gunpowder Units
- Add +50% vs Wheeled Units
- Add +50% vs Tracked Units
- Add +50% vs Siege Units
- Bomb City Defenses (15% per Turn)
- Causes Collateral Damage (max 100% to 2 Unit)
- Can Evade Interception (20%)
- Add "Can perform Carrier Operations"
- Remove -50% vs Water Units

Drone Tactical Bomber
- Reduce to Strength 70
- Increase to Range 14
- Add +50% vs Gunpowder Units
- Add +50% vs Wheeled Units
- Add +50% vs Tracked Units
- Add +50% vs Siege Units
- Bomb City Defenses (20% per Turn)
- Causes Collateral Damage (max 100% to 3 Unit)
- Can Evade Interception (30%)
- Add "Can perform Carrier Operations"
- Remove -75% vs Water Units

Thanks in advance!