Mafia game: The War of the Princes (1407-1435) [TOWN VICTORY]

[RRRaskolnikov]

Oust/ousted/ouster

Loving ousted.
I kinda feel like Shad tbh though. That's a game. Not RL.

 

[topsecret]

Guys watch out for your alerts. Pizza is reading the thread again.

@Askthepizzaguy

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler :

The whole reason why I improved this year was I read all my failure games like twice over after the game had ended, figuring out where I went wrong so as not to do it again.

That's the only reason I was competent this game, is I shoved my face in my failures and forced myself to learn from my mistakes. I wanted a win for years as town and I put in the work.

That meant reading unpleasant and dumb things I did.

Here, the entire town did stuff correctly. I'm rereading it over and over so I remember what the heck went right so I never don't at least make the attempt to get it right on this level if I play as town again, which is a super maybe situation.

I'm one foot in the retirement grave but if I do play as town again, I want to not go back to sucking out loud.

Also, you folks had some amazing ass posts that I wasn't here to like when I was AFK and now that I aint gotta solve by a deadline I'm free to read at my leisure.

I am even taking multiple rl days to do it, not rushing thru.

I'm doing the "learning from successes" thing now, looking at everyone's solving closely to see the stuff they saw that I missed.

Like Rhand's push on Takhisis and questioning my townclear of him, for example. Just as one example in like 2 dozen that I completely missed on the first second and third passes.

All the ship I didn't see that the other townies or even mafia saw, I wanna see it. I wanna not get blindsided by even one wolf. Takh truly got me and I risked the game on a town read of him that luckily didn't ruin everything due to a fluke.

I don't want to risk a game that played out like this on that one bad read next time. I want there to be zero chance I hand the game away like that.

Learn from everyone. Learn from your mistakes and others. Learn from your failures and others. And when it frigging happens at all, learn from yours and others' successes too.

That's a lot less terrible to read through, it's less of a chore, and just as valuable.

I'm still training for my next game if one even happens. I gotta be ready. I can't not be.

 

[Takhisis]

Guys watch out for your alerts. Pizza is reading the thread again.

@Askthepizzaguy

15 out of my latest 22 alerts are from this thread. btw you got the smiley wrong.

 

[Ace Marvel]

15 out of my latest 22 alerts are from this thread. btw you got the smiley wrong.

Hi Tak!

 

[DS.]

you keep pointing out activity but not commenting on what conclusions you are drawing from the inactivity

Thanks for liking this @Askthepizzaguy and reminding me of my correct read

 

[Takhisis]

For the record, that's actually Takhisis' scumhunting. It takes some time for a buildup.

If you want to see 100% townie Takhisis, check out Impending Retribution in this same forum or the Pirate Ship mafia games at totalwar.org.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Thanks for liking this @Askthepizzaguy and reminding me of my correct read

You capped Shad at the tiebreak and won the game for town, too. Lettuce never forget.

And like I said, you had passion. A lot of passion for a sub-in. A lot of folks sub in and are like, I'm better than nothing at all, so take it or leave it.

Sub-ins who give a ship and really care about the outcome and show up at all tip the balance of power. They make a slot readably villagery, and/or cap a wolf in a critical situation.

Spoiler :

All the townies nailed someone at some point in the game. For the right reasons, for the wrong reasons, for the sake of randomness. Or showed up in the finale and finished off the last enemy that was in our base killing our doodz. Every townie had moments of brilliance. A lot were solvy AF.

The players who randed scum often did as well. So many of them crawled into our town lists, especially mine.

I'm reading every post, even my cringey ones that I regret and need to learn not to do stuff like that. I'm just glad those moments of cringe are over and done with and we move on to productive posts directly after that.

Especially telling is all those days when I'm gone from the thread for hours to sleep or work. Town keeps on plugging away, getting more and more correct with their reads, finding each other, exuding townieness and solvingness.

If woofs found Ace, killed him, and then killed me, the Chox-argo duo leads town to glory, ensuring Monty's demise (for example) and both were on topsecret. These guys were the bane of the Burgundian resistance.

Pzelda still votes to yeet Shad. DS and Rhand still find Shad after mindmelding so hard all game about basically everything. Rakkoon is no longer distracted by me and probably votes for another wolf after Hollowkatt, since his leans lists kept putting mafias at the bottom of his leans. LordArgon probably draws a kill at some point given how often he was targeted for roleblock, because peeps thought he was a PR.

All the folks that wanted Takhisis or Shad to go earlier than they did go stop having loud talky man directing the vote elsewhere. And there were plenty of folks that did suspect there.

If Ace and I died, you'd have Dolbster and/or TheGoldenTyranno and/or Pzelda still alive instead, each of those peeps were hardcore on top of putting villagers in their village and wolves in their suspect list.

It's all still there. If the PRs did not stay alive, wolves still get rekt here I believe, because there were too many townies townreading each other. The strongest PR town has is a line of vanilla townies all voting correctly. There's just no counter to that. This is why town doesn't need a cop. They just need to put on their thinky brains and show up to play.

At a certain point in the game, town was in minimal danger of losing. But it's still better to finish it out quicker just in case.

I've seen town stomps get undone over and over by one wolf doing well and killing off the right thinky brains.

It would have needed to be a lot of correct thinky brains in this case, and town would have needed to forget what their suspects lists were. But that does happen.

Not everyone goes "pzelda suspected Shad, it was probs Shad who killed him" because that's WIFOM and wrong a lot, kind of like partner analysis is wrong a lot, as townies don't control the night kill or what wolves say to them or about them or where they put 'em in their fake leans lists.

So it's the weakest line of reasoning to use against a suspect, since it's one that, if wrong, they have no control over and no possible defense except "I can't control what wolves say and do." It's not the best process but throwing darts and hitting scum isn't a great process and it still hits scums.

Let's say Shad picked someone who didn't suspect him much and killed that person. Then the NK analysis would have let to a misyeet, that's why it's so dangerous.

I don't like NK analysis as a solve method, but it was one of several things pointing at Shad and at a certain point, throwing the kitchen sink at a suspect to keep everyone else alive is a valid way to try to protect your villagers, at least.

Even if it's sloppy AF methodology and loses a lot.

Anyhoo, it takes a village. I've gone very hard in several games town lost. Any one guy can be killed and silenced, ignored, outvoted. Or wrong and sloppy. The difference here is village was always there to be right or to be solving when any one other villager was not here, always there to find each other villagery and suspect wolves even when my brain was shut off, tired, or afk. If I had died, it'd be the same thing. If Ace dies, it'd be the same thing. If Csargo dies. If Choxorn dies.

If any one different villager dies this game, or even two, or three, after day three let's say, I don't see the outcome being that different a lot of the time.

Too many people were going "I am spartacus" and having correct reads. You can't just NK your way out of that. You have to be more villagery than them, and that was hard to do here for real.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am mostly through day 6 now, so probably the end of the likes notification spam.

Spoiler :

For now...

This was my first postgame full read through. It won't be the last. But yeah, I think you should get fewer / no notifications anymore.

Also this site notifies you of too many things. Reminder to all you can adjust your notifications.

I do like seeing a likes notification in my inbox, assuming it is sincere.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Rhand and DS. showed care for this village, because they got passionate about me not leading it.

I mean I am ok with being removed from the poe at this point, but it’s silly. I found Takh and Monty before anyone talked about them. You silenced me with your loud voice and now I’m eating a lynch.

^ This town had a deep bench.

Spoiler :

If Tom Brady breaks a leg, Drew Bledsoe finishes out the game. If Randy Moss pulls his groin, then Julian Edelman or Wes Welker or Rob Gronkowski takes over. Pats had a lot of years where everyone who was a superstar player was told to sit down, shut up, take a milder pay increase than they were expecting, so they could have more cap space. And when egomaniac flips his lid and quits over not being paid bank, that just meant more cap space and a deeper bench the next year. Again sorry to the Pats haters for the analogy, but it works.

Whole team > Any one good player or two or three.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

We better.

I can't read any more of you people overnight. You guys talk too much.

See, if you can't make fun of yourself.

Look, I had to read my posts, over and over and over isoing you folks, because I literally can't ignore myself.

You people can at least ignore me. You have the edge.

I need a second account just so I can read the game, put people on ignore, and put myself on ignore.

Getting rid of 1/5 of the posts in a single ignore is boss for village solving. I should have thought of that.

Not sure if it's against the rules on this site to have 2 accounts, some sites are antsy about that. But if it's not, I'm definitely having an account I use to ignore mode me to make solving easier on sites where they don't have MU's multi iso function.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Alright, page 300. Made it. Keep climbing mountains and you will reach the top of one of them eventually.

Stuff I learned or was reminded of, and will keep in mind next time.

Spoiler :

1. Village can only yeet a person a day. Sometimes when village gets its way, other villagers do not, and they could have gotten mega town credit for their guesses too. It's hard to get credit for your right guesses if the people you guessed don't flip. So don't poo poo the solving of folks who suspected people who have yet to flip. Maybe they found John the Fearless and the final English mafiosi way before you did or ever would.

2. Post count and post length are meaningless, it's just WIM and people have it or they don't. But choxorn and csargo were town's quiet core of sanity and solving here and they were both on their game and, like that game where Colby and Autolycus or whoever were playing in the Champs series that I hosted, it's not the folks who have the highest post count who are village, it's the folks who have quality posts that find townies and mafiosi correctly. Sometimes people ignore their efforts or overlook them or don't give them credit because they're not booming through a loudspeaker. Sometimes you need to sit down, shush, and listen to your quiet people who are solving their butts off within their village range. Or lend them your vote.

3. No matter how right you were in the past, you can still be a dumb and misyeet someone by being overconfident or by rushing your process. Getting sloppy and stupid while being townread and "leading" is a recipe for disaster and that's one of the ways I've lost games this year, a lot.

4. No matter how wrong your previous guesses and solves were, if you're alive and the game is still ongoing and votes are not locked, you have time to correct it and every single vote counts for town. Sometimes, critically so.

5. Each round of play is its own game. It doesn't matter if you were right or wrong yesterday, not anymore. You need to try to be right today, with a good process, ideally. You can't coast, and you have to reassess each round, not just your townies but also your suspects. If you were wrong, you can fix it. If you were right, it doesn't matter, you have to be right again. Everyone's "score" is reset every round. Keeping score is dumb and loses games, gets you self-doubting due to previous bad guesses, or overconfident due to previous good guesses. It's not about how you did, it's about how you do, when there's still wolves left to yeet. Can't live in the past, only in the moment.

6. You got time to pat yourselves on the back after the game. Doing it during the game is gauche and annoying to people.

7. Put your walls inside spoilers, then summarize what's in the spoiler if you wanted people to read it. Less scrolling for everyone else including you. If it's important, summarize that with a teal deer. No one reads walls, even if you town read them and vice-versa. It's hard to even read the walls of the people you suspect and are trying to solve their alignment. If someone wants to know your process, they can read your solving wall. It's otherwise unimportant to the outcome of the game and thus, should be minimized.

Walls are dumb, spamming the thread is the new hotness.

8. Spamming the thread shows your WIM but saps the WIM of other players a lot, and it's annoying. Active players can be present and constantly solving, but try not to generate thread clutter deliberately. Spoiler your walls, consolidate some of your thoughts more.

9. Newcomb's box is good, just keep reassessing your town because I put Shad outside the box for two rounds even while doing the Box method. There's no "one weird trick" to solving a game and you have to keep going with your process until it yeets all the wolves. Exhausting yourself just makes it harder to do the work of isoing for that final scummo and building a winning case. Even after POEing Shad by townreading everyone else in the game, it was a struggle to articulate why to yeet there at all, until I found a second wind and actually looked at end of rounds for the first 3 rounds. Being not dead tired would have made that process easier and maybe made my initial case not seem so weak. Maybe it wouldn't have ended in a tiebreak if I put all my ducks in a row before casing Shad, and then casing him properly with reasons besides "others look town".

10. LordArgon doesn't kill himself trying to solve this game and that's correct. Is guessing game. For fun. Nor does Synsensa, nor does a dozen people this game or other games. Sometimes it's also ok to die and get DVC and get carried after being villagery and solvy. If you yeet a wolf and then bite a NK and town still doesn't win, maybe not beat yourself up over what more you could have done to help. No one cares. Is guessing game. Relax for cripes' sake.

11. Lying as town is fine when people know you well. It can be mega confusing when they don't. It has its purposes, but it also has limits on how useful it can be to solve the game when it provides false positives as part of a solving process. Still think the way a half dozen villagers reacted to it was townie AF and Monty's reaction was wolfy AF, but yeah. I didn't do DS. Rakkoon or Rhand any favors by claiming SK. Gotta consider the team, not just the mission.

Also, pretty much every player here is a badass. 10/10 would crush the Champs tournament if people weren't like, "sort by post count / length" biased.

Which they are. Which is why the players here and on the org in its heyday and on MTGS and several other sites, imo, are better than the player list of any random Champs game, bar very few.

 

[pzelda]

These are some fine points and I agree with all of them. You should remind players of 2, 3 and 5 regularly.

 

[DS.]

I mean, I'm 4-0 in champs games so that checks out actually

 

[DS.]

For the record, that's actually Takhisis' scumhunting. It takes some time for a buildup.

If you want to see 100% townie Takhisis, check out Impending Retribution in this same forum or the Pirate Ship mafia games at totalwar.org.

what I picked up on is something scum does a lot though because they don't want to come down on people and have them turn on them.