Maidan

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Maidan Massacre in Ukraine: Revelations from Trials and Investigations - NYU Jordan Center
My paper and several video compilations presented recently at the virtual 10th World Congress of the International Council for Central and East European Studies in Montreal examined evidence revealed by the ongoing trial and government investigation into the Maidan massacre in Ukraine.
jordanrussiacenter.org

A 'nuetral' 'researcher' that earned himself a vatnik title.


Ukraine crisis: bugged call reveals conspiracy theory about Kiev snipers
Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet tells EU's Cathy Ashton about claim that provocateurs were behind Maidan killings
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Kremlin has used this to 'prove' a conspiracy theory. All it proves is one person told another of a theory she heard. Shocking. I heard aliens were behind the shootings too, nevermind that I don't have any actual evidence of it, nor believe it.

foreignpolicy.com
He Killed for the Maidan
Here's why my news organization decided to shed some light on a dark moment in Ukraine's revolution.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com

Which proves he shot two policeman, not much else, which, as he claims, was after police were already shooting protestors. Shocking that the protestors might shoot back?

You can't tell simply from gunshot wounds if all the wounds were from the same gun. Yeah, you can tell the difference between a rifle and a shotgun wound, but telling the difference between different rifles? You need bullet fragments for confirmation, and even if the bullet fragments show the same TYPE of gun, you need a ballistics expert to show if it came from the same gun (one sniper).

A couple other links for you to consider, since I took the time to view yours:
 
Russia in 2014, managing one the most successful influence operations in living memory, succeeded in having everyone talking about whether Ukraine was Nazi or just full of Nazis, but not about the actual Russian aggression towards Ukraine already in 2014.

And here we are, with people still clearly influenced by the Russian talking points of 2014, in 2023, going on two years of outright Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Someone who thinks it still matters explain why we should continue vasting time and energy of what was always a Russian canard anyway.
I was not familiar with the nazi history in Ukraine until after the war started. I do not believe it lessens their right to sovereignty from Russia in anyway and I do not believe it justifies Russian intervention in anyway. From my PoV this is a real estate grab by Russia with a side of oil grabbing. The reality of all empires fighting with each other has only one common theme and its real estate. Ukraine should maintain its real estate end of story.
I want to remind you all that BirdJ reminded you all.
Tell this to all the anti-russian nazi posts. Goose; gander.
He's not saying you are, he's saying that it's a repeat of the same rhetoric from pro-Russians.

There is nothing obtuse, jus reread.

What is their significance if their weight isn't out of line with the average ?

The difference is that one side use the existence of neo-nazis as a justification for invasion, while having actually more of them itself. So yeah, neo-nazis tend to be bad, but trying to pretend that both countries are on equal footing about their neo-nazi badness is dishonest.
Just like both countries have a problem with corruption, and yeah corruption is bad, but if Russia invaded Ukraine and said that it was because of corruption, trying to both-side them would be received about as well.

Also, I would encourage you to reread Estebonrober message, because it's clearly not just some technically-true "you know, both side have neo-nazis" but actually explicitely "both sides are bad".

See above, one side use neo-nazis as a justification for invasion (i.e. Bandera), while the other doesn't.
This is a misreading on your part, yes, I think it is bad that Zelensky's government had a long history of corruption and have now cancelled elections. No, they are not equally bad, it is not even close. You are reading into my thought process your perception of anyone who questions the overall narrative of the story.
It’s interesting that everyone you argue with has ideological bias. It’s further interesting that others also notice similar problems with the way you express yourself and how you are inconsistent in your arguments. A bit of self-reflection might help here.

Furthermore, if you peddle Russian talking points repeatedly two years into the war, then you indirectly support them and their actions. Russians at the beginning were throwing all kinds of fake narratives around (nazis, biolabs, Ukrainian nukes, American puppets etc) to see what sticks. Well, the nazism mantra struck with the left leaning crowd. In this way their propaganda kind of works.
This is literally a fascist anti-democratic/free-speech position and I think you might want to rethink how this could be used against you in the future. I'm going to be posting some news in the US about hamas in the Hamas thread that is pertinent regard to positions like this...you are literally becoming the monster you claim you want to slay.
you are not.

I've no idea for Estebonrober position, but the content of his post is pro-Russian propaganda. Which we know is a lot more effective that its weapons.
Since it is impossible to please people with basically the same stance as the reply above this one, all I can say is I support Ukraine and its fight for sovereignty. I support it financially, politically, and philosophically. Positions like yours lead to the old "with us or against us" mantra and I was hoping we had learned better by now.
 
A 'nuetral' 'researcher' that earned himself a vatnik title.




Kremlin has used this to 'prove' a conspiracy theory. All it proves is one person told another of a theory she heard. Shocking. I heard aliens were behind the shootings too, nevermind that I don't have any actual evidence of it, nor believe it.



Which proves he shot two policeman, not much else, which, as he claims, was after police were already shooting protestors. Shocking that the protestors might shoot back?

You can't tell simply from gunshot wounds if all the wounds were from the same gun. Yeah, you can tell the difference between a rifle and a shotgun wound, but telling the difference between different rifles? You need bullet fragments for confirmation, and even if the bullet fragments show the same TYPE of gun, you need a ballistics expert to show if it came from the same gun (one sniper).

A couple other links for you to consider, since I took the time to view yours:
I watched your NYtiems video and it is obvious strong evidence for police shooting protesters, but we knew that.

The daily beast thing is paywalled to me.

I agree with you overall and my point is not that it is clearly a US op, but that it smells like one and there is evidence for one. Which definitely muddies the water. None of this excuses Russia's behavior since though. My point is it's not clear what took place, and your reply jsut restates that really.
 
Wrong thread buddy.

And I called out everyone. "you all", so I did.
My speech in the other thread has been limited quite intentionally by the crowd who does not want to discuss the situation beyond the score of the war. Thus, to avoid censorship I will be responding in this thread that is not a "RD" (that whole idea is bullocks at this point anyways but whatever) on anything regarding Ukraine/Russia. Let freedom of speech actually reign.
 
My speech in the other thread has been limited quite intentionally by the crowd who does not want to discuss the situation beyond the score of the war. Thus, to avoid censorship I will be responding in this thread that is not a "RD" (that whole idea is bullocks at this point anyways but whatever) on anything regarding Ukraine/Russia. Let freedom of speech actually reign.
The other thread had (still should have) a ban on using terms like "nazis" and "facists" exactly to prevent the kind of discourse we've been seeing. This was not a crowd decision, it's a standing moderating decision. Everyone's speech has been equally limited.
 
The other thread had (still should have) a ban on using terms like "nazis" and "facists" exactly to prevent the kind of discourse we've been seeing. This was not a crowd decision, it's a standing moderating decision. Everyone's speech has been equally limited.
Yea, this is not my gripe. It is the fact that discussing anything that is not "current news" has become not worthy of discussion or re-evaluation because "it happened a decade ago". I do not abide that kind of behavior. I do not really abide the nazi fascist censorship either but at least it seems equally enforced. The "current news" thing always seems to go in one direction.
 
But there is only one country where the reactionary far right gained power in last few decades, and that is Russia. Don't believe me? Check out the infamous Nazbolism, works of the infamous Putin's philosopher Dugin and related ideologies, and how they resonate in Putin's speeches, in his policies and above all in his actions. The invasions of 2008, 2014 and 2022, the longstanding anabasis in Transnistria (Russia has been signing treaties promising the withdrawal of troops for over 20 years), the meddling and occasional terroristic attack in former Eastern Bloc, and so on...

Compared to that, the so-called "far right" in Europe is mostly ccmparatively tame populism. Orbán, Meloni, Wilders and so on...check out what they're really doing when they're in power. Their so-called refusal of immigration and other policies consist mostly of trying to squeeze some more money from EU via obstruction.
I'm familiar with Putin's pet neo-fascist. I'm not equivocating the behavior of the sides, that is your projection onto me.
 
Last edited:
but that it smells like one and there is evidence for one.
I havent seen any evidence. Rather, i can see where people believe, for example, there was a sniper provoking both sides, but that is not evidence for USA being behind it, and not a different foreign power, such as Russia (you know, the country that has been exploiting turmoil in ukraine to land grab).
 
I havent seen any evidence. Rather, i can see where people believe, for example, there was a sniper provoking both sides, but that is not evidence for USA being behind it, and not a different foreign power, such as Russia (you know, the country that has been exploiting turmoil in ukraine to land grab).
So, like this has to be disingenuous right? You went through my links but chose to ignore all the funding for "pro-democracy" efforts being done by the State Dept. through all of our conventional "we are going to flip this regime" agencies?

Free Market Democracy Promotion​

There’s one more critical piece to the Euromaidan puzzle: the role of Western governments.

For decades, Washington and allied governments have pursued their strategic and economic interests under the cover of promoting democracy and liberal values abroad. Sometimes that’s meant funneling money to violent reactionaries like the Nicaraguan contras, and sometimes it’s meant supporting benign pro-democracy movements like those in Ukraine.

“External actors have always played an important role in shaping and supporting civil society in Ukraine,” Ukrainian scholar Iryna Solonenko wrote in 2015, pointing to the EU and the United States, through agencies like the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and US Agency for International Development (USAID), whose Kyiv headquarters were in the same compound as the US embassy. “One can argue that without this external support, which has been the major source of funding for Ukrainian civil society since independence, Ukrainian civil society would not have become what it now is.”

This was the case in the 2004–5 Orange Revolution, where foreign NGOs changed little about Ukraine’s corruption and authoritarianism, but achieved the crucial goal of nudging Ukraine’s foreign policy westward. As the liberal Center for American Progress put it that year:

Did Americans meddle in the internal affairs of Ukraine? Yes. The American agents of influence would prefer different language to describe their activities — democratic assistance, democracy promotion, civil society support, etc. — but their work, however labeled, seeks to influence political change in Ukraine.
US officials, unhappy with the scuttled EU deal, saw a similar chance in the Maidan protests. Just two months before they broke out, the NED’s then president, pointing to Yanukovych’s European outreach, wrote that “the opportunities are considerable, and there are important ways Washington could help.” In practice, this meant funding groups like New Citizen, which the Financial Times reported “played a big role in getting the protest up and running,” led by a pro-EU opposition figure. Journalist Mark Ames discovered the organization had received hundreds of thousands of dollars from US democracy promotion initiatives.

While it may be a long time before we know its full extent, Washington took an even more direct role once the turmoil started. Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy met with Svoboda’s fascist leader, standing shoulder to shoulder with him as they announced their support to the protesters, while US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland handed out sandwiches to them. To understand the provocative nature of such moves, you only need to remember the establishment outrage over the mere idea Moscow had used troll farms to voice support for Black Lives Matter protests.

Later, a leaked phone call showed Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine maneuvering to shape the post-Maidan government. “fudge the EU,” Nuland told him, over its less aggressive intervention into the country. “Yats is the guy who’s got the economic experience,” she said, referring to opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who backed the devastating neoliberal policies demanded by the West. You can probably guess who became prime minister in the post-Maidan interim government.

It’s an overstatement to say, as some critics have charged, that Washington orchestrated the Maidan uprising. But there’s no doubt US officials backed and exploited it for their own ends.

Suffice to say, if you are familiar with US foreign policy behavior over the last 70 years now, then it becomes clear that "democracy" is jsut code for our people.
 
See when you post replies like this it gives away the game. I know you are familiar with the relative devastation of the two areas, yet you seem to think I won't call you out on this obvious reality. Ukraine could hold them in the parts they control, they choose not to...Hamas chose not to before the conflict turned into an ethnic cleansing campaign...

That said yea Hamas (militant wing) is literally worse than fascists in most contemporary settings. They are even more regressive in their overall goals and behaviors.
Has Gaza had elections before it was turned to rubble?
 
I'm familiar with Putin's per neo-fascist. I'm not equivocating the behavior of the sides, that is your projection onto me.

And yet you wrote:
I think there might be some inability to accept that both sides could be bad in this thread... Afterall Ukraine just cancelled elections which kind of undermines the one thing they really had going for them? I obviously still support their right to sovereignty from the Russians, but that does not mean that it does not lack for nazi types. Anyone who has been paying attention had long known that the Russian government has been using nazi types for quite some time. Both can be guilty, after all fascists love attacking each other.

...which sure does sound like trying to equate them.

If you're aware of Putin's nationalistic and fascist orientation, then you have to be aware of the fact that he won't be stopping in Ukraine. His rhetoric against Baltic states has been increasingly aggressive and he's obviously preparing a pretext for an attack...and if that happens, the entire world is screwed as there's a good chance the nukes will start flying, because those countries are NATO and EU members.

And yet, you write the post literally spelling that the main difference between Ukraine and Russia is the issue of free elections. Those are your words, not mine.
 
Has Gaza had elections before it was turned to rubble?
did you even bother to finish reading the sentence before you hit reply?

Estebonrober said:
See when you post replies like this it gives away the game. I know you are familiar with the relative devastation of the two areas, yet you seem to think I won't call you out on this obvious reality. Ukraine could hold them in the parts they control, they choose not to...Hamas chose not to before the conflict turned into an ethnic cleansing campaign...

That said yea Hamas (militant wing) is literally worse than fascists in most contemporary settings. They are even more regressive in their overall goals and behaviors.
Nothing Hamas has done in its past would indicate it should be promoted as a path forward.
 
And yet you wrote:
I think there might be some inability to accept that both sides could be bad in this thread... Afterall Ukraine can't even maintain a stable energy grid during the winter, making a lot of Ukrainians suffer.
 
And yet you wrote:


...which sure does sound like trying to equate them.

If you're aware of Putin's nationalistic and fascist orientation, then you have to be aware of the fact that he won't be stopping in Ukraine. His rhetoric against Baltic states has been increasingly aggressive and he's obviously preparing a pretext for an attack...and if that happens, the entire world is screwed as there's a good chance the nukes will start flying, because those countries are NATO and EU members.

And yet, you write the post literally spelling that the main difference between Ukraine and Russia is the issue of free elections. Those are your words, not mine.
I mean that is the main difference. It's important I'd say. Otherwise, they are both petrol states with serious corruption problems and anti-human rights issues. I guess Ukraine does not threaten its neighbors in the same capacity, so I'll give that to them too.

I did not mean to equate the behaviors, I meant to demonstrate that no one is clean and virtuous. The behavior of some in that thread is Russia is a boogeyman of evil and Ukraine is angelic purity.
 
Ukraine isn't angelic purity, and yes, Russia invaded, not the other way around, and still issues like minorities and human rights don't matter if personal ideas about risks to "the west" (which imo is not rational; specific countries are at some risk of being attacked by Russia, and those are literally a tiny minority in "the west" if you even place them in "the west") take charge. Which they do.
Without Maidan, we wouldn't have Crimea being part of Russia (not that I was ever in favor of Russia annexing Crimea; I posted that many times back when it was news, not just now). Of course Ukraine wouldn't be allowed to go to the west without leaving behind the regions that Russia cares about, and those are the strategic coastline.
 
Quote someone.
No one stated Russia was an evil boogeyman explicitly either Ziggy, but by not pointing that out you are showing the behavior I am talking about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom