Major Discoveries on Charm... CHARM WORKS

[Steph]

What happens if you try to open a biq file that has been modified through that into the regular editor? Similarly, do you need to have the hacked editor loaded to play the game?

There are several parts i hte biq which are labelled as "unknown". Meaning that I couldn't find any parameter in the regular editor that has an effect on it when changed.
However, if you use the hacked editor, you can add for instance the "Teleport" option, and then I can see in the biq that one of the unknown parameter changes... From this, I can locate where the charm and teleport are stored in a biq and add support for it.

The bottom line is that as it uses something that already exist in every biq, you can open the file with the regular editor, it will not crash. However, I don't know if it is just ignored and kept as is, or if it would be reset to "zero".

You don't need the hacked editor to play the game. However, these options are normally hidden for a reason: it seems Firaxis started to add somehing in the game, but they did not finish it. So although its where, it's not clear what they actually do and if they can really be used. It seems the teleport s relatively well understood, and so far it was thought the charm did nothing at all.

 

[tom2050]

How do "charmed" buildings fare against regular artillery or bombardment?

Charmed buildings can be destroyed by regular artillery and bombardment. But for regular artillery to hit, all units must be down to 1 hitpoint left (obviously). So charm seems to just bypass units completely and go for buildings.

Further notes: If Charm Building exists and city is attacked by a charm bombardment, it will give message of 'Bombardment Failed', Sometimes nothing happens after the bombard, sometimes the explosion graphic plays, and also Charm bombard kills citizens.

Citizens can not be killed by a charmed bombard after all Charmed buildings have been destroyed.
And to further clarify, it seems Charmed Small Wonders either cannot be hit/or very rarely are hit by Charmed bombards after all Charmed buildings are destroyed. (not sure which one, but after 100 tries, the Charmed Sm Wonder is still there in the city by itself)

How do "charmed" skirmishing units fare against regular skirmishing units?

TEST:
- The only one that looks a bit too far off is the Charmed units attacking regular units, in which Charmed units do better than they should have. Given the variety of chance and odds, it's not strange to have variation, but 6% is way more than the others 1-3%.

Charmed Units attacking Regular Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. Only difference is Charm. No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Charm Attackers / Regular Defenders
20/20
22/18
20/20
20/20
20/18
Totals:
102/96

Combat Calculator odds:
- Defender Wins: 54.458% (48%)
- Attacker Wins: 45.542% (51%)

Regular Units attacking Regular Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. No difference. No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Regular Attackers / Regular Defenders
14/26
19/21
17/23
15/25
21/19
Totals:
86/114

Combat Calculator odds:
- Defender Wins: 54.458% (57%)
- Attacker Wins: 45.542% (43%)

Regular Units attacking Charmed Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. Only difference is Charm (Charm units must have bombard, so this was set at 1). No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Regular Attackers / Charmed Defenders
17/23
17/23
14/26
17/23
18/22
Totals:
83/117

Combat Calculator odds:
- Defender Wins: 57.420% (58.5%)
- Attacker Wins: 42.580% (41.5%)

Can it take a nuke?

Cities with both Charmed buildings and Regular Buildings had a few buildings survive. Sometimes regular buildings survive as well, not sure if this is normal though... cannot remember. What about a Charmed Nuke ?


One of my thoughts was that Charmed Artillery against other units may make them not as capable of fighters. So e.g. if a massive charmed artillery strike hits a stack of units, they would not perform as well under attack or defense.

Tom

 

[tom2050]

One of my thoughts was that Charmed Artillery against other units may make them not as capable of fighters. So e.g. if a massive charmed artillery strike hits a stack of units, they would not perform as well under attack or defense.

Tom

THAT IS IT! Charmed BOMBARD REDUCES THE FIGHTING EFFICIENCY OF UNITS!!!!

BY ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will post test results soon!

Tom

 

[Steph]

Waow! That would be useful.

 

[tom2050]

TEST:
- The only one that looks a way off is the Charmed units attacking Charmed units, in which the attackers did way worse than other tests by a large margin. I have absolutely no clue as to what may have caused the very large difference. (Could be just luck of the dice roll)
-----------------------------------------------------------
EXACT same test as the one above, except:

The Defender Stack has been bombed by 20 Charmed Air Units with Bombard Str 10, RoF 10 prior to the Attackers assault.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Charmed Units attacking Regular Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. Only difference is Charm. No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Charm Attackers / Regular Defenders
32/8
32/8
32/8
34/6
35/5
Totals:
165/35

Combat Calculator odds: (actual combat results)
- Defender Wins: 54.458% (17.5%)
- Attacker Wins: 45.542% (82.5%)

Regular Units attacking Charmed Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. Only difference is Charm (Charm units must have bombard, so this was set at 1). No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Regular Attackers / Charmed Defenders
34/6
35/5
33/7
31/9
32/8
Totals:
165/35

Combat Calculator odds: (actual combat results)
- Defender Wins: 57.420% (17.5%)
- Attacker Wins: 42.580% (82.5%)

Charmed Units attacking Charmed Units (40 units each)
Each unit has 5 Attack, 5 Defense, 1 Move Point. Both have Charm (Charm units must have bombard, so this was set at 1). No fortified units, 10% grass bonus.
After the battles these were the number of units left.
Charmed Attackers / Charmed Defenders
32/8
31/9
30/10
29/11
29/11
Totals:
151/49

Combat Calculator odds: (actual combat results)
- Defender Wins: 57.420% (24.5%)
- Attacker Wins: 42.580% (75.5%)

--------------------------------------------------------------

FURTHER QUESTIONS and Tests to Come:
How long does a unit suffer from a Charm Bombard? 1 turn, 2 turn, forever? (seems to be only the current turn)
Exactly how does Charm bombard effect a unit? So we know what to set the bombard values at.
Does a unit with Charm that uses it's Defensive Bombard also effect the attacker in a similar way?
Do Charmed units have any resistance to the effects of enemy Charmed bombardment?
Are the effects the same with air units and naval units?
Does a Charmed Bombard only effect the top unit, or all units?
Does a barracks/airport/harbour bldg heal the effects of a Charmed bombardment?
Can Cruise Missiles use the Charm ability?
Does Lethal Land/Sea make Charmed Bombard lower fighting ability of enemies even more than normal?

IMO, this is huge... and opens up a plethora of new possibilities.

If anyone cares to do any tests, please help... it's too much for me to do all this by myself.

Tom

 

[Steph]

Suggestion:
Make a test scenario with two defending units, with an explicit name "Charm target", "Regular target".
Place a bombing charm unit close by, and normal bombing unit.

Start a game, save as "Before bomging.sav"

Then, bomb the defending "charm target" unit with the charm unit, and the "regular target" with the non charm unit, and save as "After bombing.sav".

No other difference, save just before bomding and just after.

I can look at both save, and see if there is a difference in the defending unit. It may help to understanding what is going on.

 

[Ares de Borg]

Finally a way to use cadaver throwing catapults and gas shells efficiently - to weaken the enemy!

 

[tom2050]

http://f.imagehost.org/download/0655/CharmTest

Here is the 2 saves.

Charm Bomber and Regular Bomber exactly the same except the Charm Bomber has Charm.

Charm Target and Regular Target exactly the same except the Charm Target has Charm.

first save is before Charm Bomber bombs the Charm Target / Regular Bomber bombs the regular Target.
second save is after the bombing. Note, the regular bomber took 2 hitpoints off of the regular target, so this would probably show in the save somewhere.

If you need it any different, let me know.

--------------------------
I'm going to do some tests, to try to find length of time that the charm stays on a unit.
EDIT: It seems that Charm is only effective for the current turn. After Charm Bombing the stack of units and letting them attack me next turn or 2 turns down the road, the results were back to regular win/loss percentages.

Cruise Missiles seem to work like normal cruise missiles, and the Charm flag seems to have no effect at all on them.
-- ---
but after doing a test with ship vs ship combat:
Charm bombing a group of 20 defender ships with 20 Charm Bombers, then attacking those ships with 20 of my ships, the Charm appeared not to work. Ship Attackers had 8 ships left, Ship Defenders had 12 ships left. Of course, the ships had 10 bombard str also, and were Charm Ships, so this means it could be possible that the Charm defensive bombard effected the attackers and reduced their fighting ability.

Finally a way to use cadaver throwing catapults and gas shells efficiently - to weaken the enemy!

Cadaver throwing catapults , to bring true medieval accuracy into the game!

Tom

 

[Steph]

Then we'll need a cow throwing catapult and a giant wooden rabbit.

I'll try to add charm and finish teleport/telepad in my editor this evening. I'll also tell you if I can see something about the units in the save.

EDIT: If I find something, I can easily let one turn pass, save and look again to see if the "charm" is reset after a turn.

EDIT2: Did you notice if they AI is using the charm artillery more aggressively on units, or only against buildings? Then it could be a very nice twist. For instance, in my mod I have archer and crossbowman as artillery units. I could make them "charm" units, whose purpose would be to harass the ennemy before attacking with normal units.

Did you notice if charm artillery can still have a defensive bombardment?

And if there is a charm barrier, I suppose it protects the units from the charm attack until it is destroyed first. It makes a lot more sense then.

EDIT3: I've just quickly checked the doc. There are many "unknown" part in the units section of the save file format. It doesn't mean charm is there, but there's for sure plenty of room to store information about it.

 

[tom2050]

Then we'll need a cow throwing catapult and a giant wooden rabbit.

I'll try to add charm and finish teleport/telepad in my editor this evening. I'll also tell you if I can see something about the units in the save.

EDIT: If I find something, I can easily let one turn pass, save and look again to see if the "charm" is reset after a turn.

EDIT2: Did you notice if they AI is using the charm artillery more aggressively on units, or only against buildings? Then it could be a very nice twist. For instance, in my mod I have archer and crossbowman as artillery units. I could make them "charm" units, whose purpose would be to harass the ennemy before attacking with normal units.

Did you notice if charm artillery can still have a defensive bombardment?

And if there is a charm barrier, I suppose it protects the units from the charm attack until it is destroyed first. It makes a lot more sense then.

EDIT3: I've just quickly checked the doc. There are many "unknown" part in the units section of the save file format. It doesn't mean charm is there, but there's for sure plenty of room to store information about it.

Something strange happened, but I'll get to that in a minute...

So far I noticed that AI was using Charm artillery aggressively (see below) against cities mainly, but in all tests I have done, my units were all in cities.

Charm units have defensive bombardment still... it may be tough to see if Charm defensive bombard has the Charm effect though, since it's still unknown how it is figured to work (does it lower Defense value or Attack value of unit?)

I think you are spot on there! That makes sense for Charm Barrier... No unit can be hurt by Charm bombard until the Barriers are down.

----------------------
Anyways, here is the strange part... I thought I went crazy for a minute. I did some AI tests, and suddenly every Charm artillery piece was fleeing back into the cities and fortifying. So I went back to my first original Charm test BIQ where the Charm artillery was acting like crazy wild men and loaded that one up, and there they were, coming out, bombarding my city with each one protected and escorted by a unit. Now not all the artillery was out, they brought out about 25% of the charm arty, the rest where left elsewhere, in cities and some fortified outside of cities. But they would attack first with arty bombard, then follow up with offensive units.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the 2 biq's, but I'm looking for anything that may be different. It's possible it may not have been anything due to Charm, but could have possibly been due to something else ???

Tom

 

[Steph]

What strategies did you set up for your charm unit? Only artillery?

 

[Takhisis]

Ah, finally, biological warfare and propaganda can be simulated.
You can also have pagan priests throw "curses" of little to no bombardment strength, but that would weaken the enemy's attack for later on. How long does this weakening effect last?

Some ideas:
Have you tried combining Charm+Enslave and Charm+Stealth Attack?
Would combining Charm and Amphibious actually mean that Amphibious units are used extensively instead of landing an then attacking as the Artificial Idiot sometimes does?

 

[Ozymandias]

From what I have seen posted the hacked editor must be used last, iirc.

Amigo, I believe you're thinking of the terrain hex editor (as in the HistoriCanada mods) where, e.g., Ocean tiles adjacent to shore must be added last.

Best,

Oz

 

[timerover51]

Based on what has developed with respect to "Charm" and the presence also of "Teleport", I suspect that Firaxis was thinking of having a fantasy subgame as part of Civilization 3 as it does in Civilzation 2. However, after the initial code was written, they must have changed their minds, and not completed the subgame, but the coding for it is still there. It would then seem reasonable to assume that there are other goodies contained in the source code that could be exploited if given knowledge of them.

 

[Steph]

As I said,, the biq format and the sav format still include unknown part that could very well contain hidden flags or options.

 

[Balthasar]

Amigo, I believe you're thinking of the terrain hex editor (as in the HistoriCanada mods) where, e.g., Ocean tiles adjacent to shore must be added last.

I don't think he was, compadre. Everything I've read says that to use the cracked editor, you have to add in teleportation and Charm last. The regular editor will undo it. Regardless, having that ability in Steph's editor would be invaluable..

PS: "terrain hex editor"? Is there such a thing, or do you mean "terrain that has been hex-edited?" I'd love to see that capability added to Steph's editor as well.

 

[tom2050]

Well, I hate to disappoint everyone, as I myself disappointed myself... but I have been had by a case of Firaxsis exotic programming.

It seems that I just happened by chance to setup some kind of rare BIQ city placement where the AI brings out it's arty to attack, but it only does so for the first 10 turns, but then no longer does forever.

I think Arty is programmed the same as workers, it's okay outside of a city unless an enemy or enemy culture border is within 2 tiles, then head for city for protection. AI brought its arty towards the city when there was a 1 tile gap between my culture border and theirs.

I mistakingly thought it was due to charm and jumped to conclusions

Oh well, although they all work, land charm arty is pretty much AI worthless then, but Air and Naval may be more useful since they actually do something at least.

Tom

 

[Balthasar]

Don't be disappointed, Tom. As far as I'm concerned, your mistake was a bit of serendipity for the rest of us. Your tests proved it has a measurable effect in warfare. That's immense.

Surely charm was intended as a sort of stun or diminishment spell, probably meant to be thrown by a Wizard before a melee, hence: bombard (and was likely accompanied by some sort of special animation which would have been found in or near the "bombs" folder of the Art/Animation folder, I assume, since it's using "bombard" animations now).

That ain't small potatoes, bub. Hundreds, nay, thousands of uses.

 

[Moosezilla]

Not only that but if there where a way to fool the game into thinking it was starting a new game every ten turns AI might...

 

[Takhisis]

Such as Steph's special editor editing your svaes, huh? If it can change eras, then it can probably do that too.