Making Elves more flexible and less overpowered

[heisenberg]

Total conjecture here, but my impression of fantasy-setting elves (like, I don't know, in lord of the rings and such) has always been that there just aren't too many of them. As such, the continent-straddling empire of pop. 30 cities does seem like a little much. I wouldn't want to cripple the race, but perhaps eleven cites should grow more slowly than others? Their nigh-unlimited potential for growth wouldn't be so bad, if it just took them a while to work up to it. Furthermore, "Ancient" forests seem to manifest everywhere within less than twenty turns of converting to FoL. Perhaps those should take longer as well?

Regarding ancient forest growth it has already been nerfed in 0.34. I suppose you were referring to the ~10 turn swap to create tons of ancient forests pre-0.34?

 

[psychoak]

I guess I'm the only one that considers FOL to be a major drawback as anyone but elves in most situations?

I wouldn't mind seeing a build rate increase from ancient forests, but elves already build hellishly slow, in combination with making them forested to start with, that's a long bit of work to improve them. Someone can then come through and scorch your forests, with 50% defense while they do it. You only get 60% from having both trailblazing upgrades. They damn near negate their own use when it's someone else that's in them. Yeah, your own units are really hard to kill in forests, but you're looking at 50 defense opposed to your 70 attack modifier, instead of 25 to your 40 by having the bells and whistles that come with the religion.

Yvain is nice, but Kithra is a rather bland, subpar hero. Comparable to Rosier while being further up the chain. You have to research three different tiers to really get the power out of the elves as FOL, even if they do have an outstanding city potential.

I consider it a defensive religion that takes a lot of effort to become competent for attacking, and works best with the sides that are the least effective at playing defense thanks to extra slow rebuilding capabilities. Elves not having siege makes that all the worse. I do think siege needs some work though, fireballs shouldn't be the superior option for siege.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I feel kinda the same about you actually. to me FoL is useful if you are 1) elves or 2) Kuriotates ( the happiness factor )

not saying that it's bad, just that the others are better. but if you are elves it's the opposite. everything but FoL is crap

 

[Gelvan]

I really think FoL is nice, for everyone - it gives early culture, it gives early +1 food on forrests, without the need to chop it, it has nice synergies with the recon line, that leads to the most powerful project...

I really think GoN is just "boring". What is so funny about having it? After I read this thread I know can imagine what's fun about it, cities with 30+ citizen, but although I wasn't aware of that before I'd prefer to give the bonus only like the BtS Wonder National Park (but in every city). More micromanagement and you have to descide if you want to destroy your towns in forrests if you're elf.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well you're the only one that likes MORE micromanagement I guess

 

[Gelvan]

yes I do - I mean that's the point in SP, isn't it? *smile*

seriously, the "more options for workers" strategy which the Civ4 developers had in mind, when they produced Vanilla, was a big improvement to the series imo

the more improvements - the merrier

a bit more fleshed out:
- GoN provides every city with the abilities to profit from forest sancutary improvement
- GoN enables workers to build forest sancutary improvement
- forest sanctuary gives +1 +1

this would make it impossible to profit from GoN if there is another improvement on the tile (a lumber mill, or something else if Elven). It's called Guardian of Nature, not Guardian of Villages, right? Elves would be nerfed, but others won't. If you change the civic you would loose the bonus. and after a while all forest sanctuaries disappear.

 

[psychoak]

Considering how many dangerous units I've lost and beaten thanks to treant pops, I wouldn't call GoN boring...

I really don't see it. The religion is situational. If I'm elves and in a massive forest, I don't really need the religion. I've already got my trees. If I'm not elves, the only time it's useful is when I've got a bunch of one food tiles, or god forbid worse, and I need the food from ancient forests just to eek out an existence and use otherwise hopeless cities as production centers.

The pop boost is nice sure, but if you're already in forest heaven, you can go for something else and get a hell of a lot more offensive punch, especially as the dickless elves. They really do suck at city assaults when you run the recon/FoL lines. You could make a run for flurries, a truly badass unit, and way too late to be so badass if you take the other lines first, which is where FoL and elves really shine. They are severely defensive when played the "right" way. There is so much more that can be done with them which is superior at different points and aspects.

 

[Nor'easter]

Total conjecture here, but my impression of fantasy-setting elves (like, I don't know, in lord of the rings and such) has always been that there just aren't too many of them. As such, the continent-straddling empire of pop. 30 cities does seem like a little much. I wouldn't want to cripple the race, but perhaps eleven cites should grow more slowly than others? Their nigh-unlimited potential for growth wouldn't be so bad, if it just took them a while to work up to it. Furthermore, "Ancient" forests seem to manifest everywhere within less than twenty turns of converting to FoL. Perhaps those should take longer as well?

Well, Tolkien's Elves are immortal, so it makes sense that they would procreate over a longer period of time, so as not to outstrip the available food and other resources. In the Silmarillion, in the whole First Age of Middle-Earth, which spreads over centuries (maybe millennia?), you see 3 or at most 4 generations of Elves.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

FfH elves clearly live much longer reproduce more slowly than humans too. Several elves alive in the Age of Magic are alive and well in the Age of Rebirth too. Thessa's pedia entry makes it clear that she was still considered quite young when she met Devon a the age of 40, and that there marriage would be many years later.

 

[zup]

40 and quite young? I have seen a 2000 years old elf considered a baby by her fellow elves. Ok it's not exactly the same since there was nobody younger. I guess she will forever be a baby in their eyes.

But will an elf die of old age? Probably not given the number of >99.9% combats I have lost so far.

 

[Darksaber1]

Yeah, since elves seem to live more then 1000 years (I forgete, how long was the canon Age of Ice?), and have a slow birth rate, they should grow at least 50% slower, and their concern for nature should mean they get a production penalty, but it is up to others to decide on these changes.

 

[Gilg]

.... Is there any brilliant ideas on how to make another religion more attractive to the Ljos & Svart? Perhaps a unique ljosalfar take on the Empyrian?

 

[Gelvan]

after you have every wood converted to an ancient forrest it makes sense to switch, if you can discover it first.

 

[hbar]

I think elves shouldn't be able to build farms in forests. Cottages make perfect sense, and +1 food from Ancient forests also makes sense, but a farm on the forest floor is ludicrous. Farms need sunlight, and no amount of elf-y goodness will change that. This would help reduce the megacities (trade food for happiness instead of getting both) and only affect the elves, without being too big a nerf.

 

[Imuratep]

CoE should definitely be made more useful for Svarts as Viconia's favorite civic is the Undercouncil which implies they prefer the attached religion.

 

[kenken244]

Farms need sunlight, and no amount of elf-y goodness will change that.

The problem is, In FFH plants don't need sunlight, they use nature mana.