[GS] Mali Discussion Thread

[darko82]

I'll say that more stylistic character designs tend to hold up better over time and acquire "nostalgia" more readily.

You sound like an ultra-puritan calvinist. Fat could have its own grace, its own beauty. Mussa is, for me, perfect. The way FRX wanted to depicted Mussa was like a man with amazing wealth and, as they say in the first look, he spent his wealth to improve the life of its people. He was a man of strong faith, but faith for Islam can (and should) mean hospitality, helpfulness and generosity. So, since we have no official, historical depiction of Mussa during his reign, Firaxis has to make a character that match its personality, therefore a man ready to help his people and thus jolly, smily and (because he were filfthy rich) fatty. Islam is not a religion against fun, opposed to what people might say. Mussa could really have looked like this.

Besides, you look quite contradictal: you don't like Gengis Khan because he doesn't look like what he should be (a villainous schemer) but you don't like Mussa neither because he does look like what he should be (a generous, wealthy, faithful islamic medieval leader).
(And for your remark about the fact that, without muscles, you die in this time, I should remind you: Mongols fight mainly with archers and bows, not with closed warriors and swords ; muscles were not as important as stability and precision. It was not the english longbow, which required huge muscles).

I liked the way he looked in Civ 4. Wasn't that OK?

"Muscles" in other words "Strength", which can manifest in different ways. Generally speaking, stronger wins. Facial expressions, body language. That's what I am talking about. Not necessairly literally about muscles. Besides archers and bows do not exclude "muscles" and its general importance in every civ.

I will probably get used to new Mussa. I just expected something different.

 

[DWilson]

I liked the way he looked in Civ 4. Wasn't that OK?

"Muscles" in other words "Strength", which can manifest in different ways. Generally speaking, stronger wins. Archers and bows do not exclude "muscles" and its general importance in every civ.

I will probably get used to new Mussa. I just expected something different.

After reading the full exchange, it just seems like your problem is depiction of people as heavier characters. It may not be, but that's how it's coming across.

 

[Morningcalm]

There are few descriptions of what Musa specifically looked like, so some creative license can be forgiven.

I do find the lack of desert headgarb somewhat puzzling since Musa was most known for his hajj across the desert, but I do like the sunny disposition this Musa has.

One of Musa's successors was described by Ibn Battuta as having a ceremonial gold skull cap, bow and arrows, and velvety red tunic: http://gozips.uakron.edu/~amartin/global/Ibn_Battuta.htm (scroll down to "The court ceremonial of King Sulayman of Mali")

But we don't really know what Musa looked like to my knowledge (unless there are descriptions elsewhere of him in more obscure sources).

I do like that the ruler of Mali in Civ VI will be portrayed with gold tracery in his robe even if there's no evidence any Mansa of Mali wore such, since it alludes to Mali's huge gold wealth (fed also by trade in ivory and salt amongst other things). Mali was called "the Bright Country" so its ruler should reflect that.

Speaking of, if Firaxis wises up and adds the gold luxury resource to the game, Mali's start bias should include a gold resource or two.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

There are few descriptions of what Musa specifically looked like, so some creative license can be forgiven.

I do find the lack of desert headgarb somewhat puzzling since Musa was most known for his hajj across the desert, but I do like the sunny disposition this Musa has.

That's true, but was he wearing such things while he was back home entertaining guests or whatever? I don't know.

 

[Morningcalm]

That's true, but was he wearing such things while he was back home entertaining guests or whatever? I don't know.

Was Frederick Barbarossa wearing plate armor when entertaining guests? Likely not.

But each leader is portrayed in (generally) a way corresponding to what they are iconic for. Hence Napoleon on a battleground in V, or Victoria wearing full regalia in VI, and so on.

Musa wearing desert headgarb would have better alluded to the hajj he was iconic for (which incidentally was one of the most celebrated events in West African history, and among the most widely known outside of Western Africa).

 

[UWHabs]

They have different styles. Sarah would bring up certain topics to discuss while Pete mostly focussed on questions. They are both good.

As for Musa's appearance, he's okay. Being used to his Civ 4 appearance it's hard to get used to his weight, but eventually I will.

As for Genghis, he's alright. Just be glad he doesn't look like John Wayne in the Conqueror.

Yeah, Sarah is more about running commentary on the gameplay, whereas Pete is more about answering questions while the game is on in the background. They barely commented on anything going on in the game.

Both valuable - I would say Sarah's is probably more entertaining, and showed off more of the civ in question, but Pete perhaps answered more questions. Of course, it also depends on who the other guests are - Ed and Anton are the more hands-on with the game, so they'll have a different focus than when the art designer, or producer, or whoever else are guests on it.

 

[Morningcalm]

So Barbarossa should be displayed while drow... ah, that's why he's wearing plate armor!

The display of leaders in civ VI in relation to the background is just contradictory and doesn't make much sense. Obviously, they are not standing in front of what is seen in the background, otherwise their clothes and dresses wouldn't fit. I still get the feeling they are actors on a stage, thus Mansa can wear anything, since there is no context - "home dress" or "hajj dress" (whatever the latter is). Keep in mind that he would not wear a desert headgarb in places where he met other people, like Cairo or Mecca, but only during traveling - if even then, we can't know. Additionally, Desert headgarbs are very easy to get wrong; it's hard to tell an Alasho from a Tagelmust or a Lifam for foreigners to those cultures - and none of those named would be fitting for Mali

Lol, obviously the plate armor isn't about the drowning--the castle in the Barbarossa leader background isn't from the Near East. But he was known more as a warrior, so it makes more sense. Similarly, I expect many would want to see Hannibal Barca with elephants near a battlefield, rather than at court.

I disagree on this leader background /costumed portrayal being contradictory so much as varied (though I don't overall like the VI leader backgrounds, which are too smudged and gloomy). History is about feats of militarism as much as courtly politics, specially in the context of Civ leaders--if every leader was simply portrayed how they were at court we would have a series of all-too-similar court garb across the board. Firaxis ought not be afraid to show leaders with desert headgarb, as they similarly weren't in Civ V or IV or so on.

I think that desert headgarb would not only be worn while traveling. Anyone who's been to hot desert cities knows people keep that garb on as it protects against heat as much as it does against sand.

Also, I think Musa right now looks too similar to a genie, or a Muslim incarnation of the fatherly, jolly Jethro from Prince of Egypt. I like that he's jolly, but the clothing seems....well, not desert-related so much.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for Musa's appearance, he's okay. Being used to his Civ 4 appearance it's hard to get used to his weight, but eventually I will.

I expected him to be not as heavy as well, but I don't mind. I can see maybe they are trying to make him out as the Santa of this game giving out gold to everybody he comes across.

Musa wearing desert headgarb would have better alluded to the hajj he was iconic for (which incidentally was one of the most celebrated events in West African history, and among the most widely known outside of Western Africa).

That's the main thing I kind of wanted him to be wearing but I can live without it. At least they aren't getting Egyptian architecture in their cities now.

 

[Siptah]

I disagree on this leader background /costumed portrayal being contradictory so much as varied (though I don't overall like the VI leader backgrounds, which are too smudged and gloomy). History is about feats of militarism as much as courtly politics, specially in the context of Civ leaders--if every leader was simply portrayed how they were at court we would have a series of all-too-similar court garb across the board. Firaxis ought not be afraid to show leaders with desert headgarb, as they similarly weren't in Civ V or IV or so on.

I'm not at all advocating that every leader should be portrayed in court, but in correct context. I was just pointing out that what the leaders wear doesn't fit the background image quite often. I would prefer it I leader dressing, acting and background would form a unity, like in civ V in most (all?) cases. In civ VI, these three things fitting seems to be the exception - Cleo is probably best in that way.

And yes, many people in desert regions, like Tuareg men (Musa's arch enemies) wear their headgarb almost all the time, but I wouldn't conclude from that to a medieval Malian emperor. Additionally, he might have travelled riding by himself in the open, but he also might have traveled in a sedan or something similar.

I'm not against him wearing a headgarb, I just don't agree that he must wear one, as I don't even think it is necessarily the best way to portrait him.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I think the animation looks pretty good--I do agree it's not what I expected but that's ok. I don't think it's anything out of line either. It's okay that Roosevelt isn't wearing safari gear as well.

 

[KayAU]

I expected him to be not as heavy as well, but I don't mind. I can see maybe they are trying to make him out as the Santa of this game giving out gold to everybody he comes across.

Well, you did it...from now on I will think of him as Desert Santa Claus.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

For rulers of areas like Mali I think desert headgarb makes sense. It isn't a must, but lacking it seems a missed opportunity to me. When Mansa Suleyman travelled on horseback he had such headgarb on apparently.

Looking closely at the Mandekalu Cavalry again at least they have the headgarb on so that's a plus and it is defintiely appropriate for them.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, you did it...from now on I will think of him as Desert Santa Claus.

Actually, pretty accurate: the best thing you could do for yourself was be friends with Musa; he had the potential to shower you with Gold.
On the other hand, be on his 'naughty' list, and he had the wealth to make really nasty things happen to you as well.

Both of which match nicely with his In-Game Abilities as seen so far.

Rather like Alexander, who was notoriously generous to supporters and friends and even opponents he admired (Porus), but utterly homicidal to rebels or even the insufficiently supportive (Parmenio, Calisthenes).

As for Mesa's appearance, since we don't really know what he looked like, only the use of apparel to indicate his achievements or status makes any sense to me. Even that is completely immaterial in the game: if I'm playing him, I'll never see him, and after the first 2 - 3 repetitions, I click past all the Leader animations in the game anyway. Depiction of an Immortal Simulcrum of the State is the least important part of the game to me. . .

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Looking closely at the Mandekalu Cavalry again at least they have the headgarb on so that's a plus and it is defintiely appropriate for them.

Ride a horse through a sand-filled desert wind exactly once and you will never do so again without head covering and face protection. Been there, done that, learned my lesson. . .

 

[Inlex]

I had to read the unique ability three times before I didn't read 'songs of the Jedi'...

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Have moved the off topic posts to a separate thread here. Please keep this thread on topic of Mali. Last warning.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Leathaface]

It seems like it could be wise to get a builder very early with Mali since you can build a mine to get 4 GPT from it. Then you would be able to purchase a slinger much sooner if you were to get invaded.

Heck, imagine if one build the builder used was on a good food tile, you'd even be able to build 2 mines and get 8 GPT right at the start of the game You'd have little problem purchasing units then.

(I wonder if mines need to be worked to get the 4 GPT from them?)

 

[Disgustipated]

It seems like it could be wise to get a builder very early with Mali since you can build a mine to get 4 GPT from it. Then you would be able to purchase a slinger much sooner if you were to get invaded.

Heck, imagine if one build the builder used was on a good food tile, you'd even be able to build 2 mines and get 8 GPT right at the start of the game You'd have little problem purchasing units then.

(I wonder if mines need to be worked to get the 4 GPT

I would say yes the mines have to be worked to get that gold, same as any other tile improvement.

You are right about that builder. My biggest decision in my first game (which will be Mali of course) is do I go scout first or builder first? I suppose it may depend on how many turns to research mining. Which will be the first tech researched by most people I imagine. After that do you go for astrology for a religion or say animal husbandry?

Ideally I would love to have 2 grassland hills to mine at the start, even if I had to sacrifice some food/faith by not settling in all desert.

 

[gozpel]

Disable bias of starting, and suddenly you can have Mali spawning in tundra, he will still survive. But an easy win on harder dif's, that will be a challenge.

 

[Ondolindë]

Disable bias of starting, and suddenly you can have Mali spawning in tundra, he will still survive. But an easy win on harder dif's, that will be a challenge.

Sacrilege! How dare you! Let them be, please.