Mali vs Songhai vs Ghana

[AnonymousSpeed]

In Civ4 we had the Mali. In Civ5, Songhai. Now we're at Civ6 and have yet to have a West African empire from that region. Before Macedon was released, I would have highly doubted seeing more than one of the Mali, Songhai, or Ghana (the kingdom in that region before the Mali).

While Macedon has been released, let's work under the assumption that we still only get one of the above three civilizations (which still seems the most likely). Which one of them would you like to see? What abilities and leaders would you like them to have? Why? Which of the three do you think will get in, if any?

 

[Siptah]

I'll throw Ashanti into the ring on top of that, even though Kumasi is already in the game.
I hope for Mali to be honest. But more than one west african civ would be very welcome. Ashanti could well be named Ghana and Songhai be named Mali in any case.

 

[The Kingmaker]

This is Civ6 now. Give us all of them.

We've already seen things like Venice and now a Macedon separate from Greece.

There's no reason we can't have them all. Africa is woefully under-represented right now. Asia and the Americas too.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

I liked Mali in Civ IV as an economic civ. I guess you aren't counting Morocco as "too Arab"?

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I liked Mali in Civ IV as an economic civ. I guess you aren't counting Morocco as "too Arab"?

No, but Morocco and Songhai were both in Civ5, not the Mali and the Songhai, and since Morocco occupies a different geographical region I didn't include them in the group of three.

 

[Phoenix1595]

I miss the Songhai from Civ5 (they always made my games interesting, for some reason, when controlled by the AI). That said, I would be happy with any West African, Islamic civ. I know Kongo was a fan request for a very, very long time, but Mali/Songhai are too important to history to leave out, and I was a little baffled by the choice for the first round "African" civ. I would even go so far as to say that West Africa, in some form, deserve just as much representation as the Ottomans, Mongols, and the Zulus (another African civ left out again) as previous series regulars not yet in the game.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Just remember, the more we ask for it, the more likely we are to get it.

If enough fans want a Civ, there's no reason for them not to include it.

Who wouldn't love having both Mansa Musa and Askia Muhammad Toure?

One's pious and loves trade and science, the other's an aggressive wild card. Fun times.

 

[Liufeng]

Just remember, the more we ask for it, the more likely we are to get it.

If enough fans want a Civ, there's no reason for them not to include it.

Who wouldn't love having both Mansa Musa and Askia Muhammad Toure?

One's pious and loves trade and science, the other's an aggressive wild card. Fun times.

I guess we could say the same on Mali : a warmonger with Sundiata Keita and a trade and faith crazy with Mansa Musa

Anyway, I don't see adding Ghana, Mali and Songhai at the same, since they litteraly share the same cities, but that doesn't other western african civs can't make it : Benin, Ashanti, Mossi, ...

 

[Zaarin]

Mansa Musa and Mali seem to fit nicely into the sort of leaders and civs that have been selected so far, but personally I found Songhai quite interesting and would rather see them. My money's on Mali, though.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Although there is quite a bit of overlap between them, I'd like to find a way for them to incorporate both Maki and Songhai somehow, if not Ghana also. Suggestions welcome.

 

[MaximusPlatypus]

No, but Morocco and Songhai were both in Civ5, not the Mali and the Songhai, and since Morocco occupies a different geographical region I didn't include them in the group of three.

Ahh, ok. I didn't realize they all occupied the exact same area. I did kind of like both Morocco's and Songhai's implementation in 5. We need more African civs in general.

 

[Xandinho]

To be honest, I would like to see the three, how many more civs better.
But as we probably will not see all of them, Mali would be my first choice, Ashanti the second and Songhai the third.
On my priority list, Songhai is behind, because we have already seen it in civ5 and I have more desire for Mali and for something different and new like Ashanti.

 

[Uberfrog]

My personal choice would be Mali and Musa, with hard economic and faith bonuses (there is an excellent suggestion in the Design A Civ thread). The Ghana Empire would be an interesting new addition from the same region.

I'd like to see the Ashanti too. They're easily distinct enough geographically to be alongside a Sahelian Civ. But as we now have Macedon and Greece the more the merrier

 

[The Kingmaker]

The more the merrier indeed.

I think this thread is in need of a map.

As you can see, although there is considerable overlap between the three civs, it's not universal. Each group does have its own heartland. At the very least, I think we could potentially manage both Songhai and Mali.

 

[MantaRevan]

Mali seems most likely since Firaxis's main criteria for a leader seems to be not being in Civ 5. Mansa Musa would be a nice addition to the cast, since we don't really have many leaders purely focused on making cash right now. Sunni Ali Ber would also be interesting for Songhai as well, though I expect that Firaxis regards that Civ as a Civ 5 dark horse and not a true series staple. Ghana would also be nice as something new. I'd love to see any of these.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm not sure how surprised I should be that not very many people wanted Ghana over the other options.

As you can see, although there is considerable overlap between the three civs, it's not universal. Each group does have its own heartland. At the very least, I think we could potentially manage both Songhai and Mali.

Probably. It could make for an interesting scenario to have both of them, with the Mali trying to keep their land and the Songhai trying to take it.

Personally, I'd like to see Mali again, since I have nostalgia bias towards them.

 

[Morningcalm]

Mali please. Mansa Musa is too famous, worthy and agenda-fitting a leader to pass up. No Songhai leader comes close. Ghana could be interesting, but with the continent being so ill-represented, we need to start with the famous African empires (we have Kongo in already, with Egypt, Zulus are inevitable, so let's go to Mali or Ethiopia next).

 

[bcaiko]

I'd hope for Mali, myself. I think it could be a well done economic powerhouse.

We've already seen things like Venice and now a Macedon separate from Greece.

Ed Beach will only do that for European Civs. They're far more "interesting" than having Civs from more diverse regions with history we could actually learn about.

 

[Uberfrog]

I wonder if there's mileage in a multi-leader solution to this problem. They could introduce one civ, named Mali, since that is the modern country that represents most closely the heartland of each of the three empires, and then have a leader each with an ability that represents Ghana (not sure of a leader here), Mali (Musa with gold and faith focus) and Songhai (Askia with a militaristic and faith focus). The civ ability would clearly have to be a trade focussed one with perhaps bonuses for salt and gold (which should be a luxury resource anyway ).

While they were separate empires, each grew out of being a client/vassal state of the preceding one, and they occupy much the same territory, and role as controller of local trade, as well as using that wealth to be a hub for religion, education and culture in the region. I think if we can accept an amalgamation for the various city states of Greece, the dynasties of China or the various civilisations that occupied the Indian subcontinent, a fusion of the three main Sahelian empires would make sense. Especially since we already see suggestions for Anglo-Saxon leaders of England (an example of a different ethnic group being the ruling class of the same geographical area), or Almoravid/Almohad/Marinid leaders for a Moroccan civ (successive dynasties ruling the same country).