Man, Emperor is so different then Monarch

[Aamto12]

So, I am a typical Monarch player. Win most, sometimes lose, etc. So, I figured for fun, I'm gonna try Emperor mode.

Yeah. Apparently, my warmongering doesn't work there. I was playing as Justinian and was essentially boxed in by Darius and Gandhi, so I had no choice but to fight. I built an army of stuff, took two of Gandhi's cities (including Buddhist holy city), cease fired, caught my military up, and then wiped him out.

But now, my economy is in the drain -- 0% research, -23gpt. So, yeah. And I'm way behind in tech. I don't even have CoL for courthouses.. This game isn't salvageable, but I was just wondering what I did wrong. I figured I had no choice to war and I guess I got caught up in my habits of keeping trash cities (I win 99% of my games on Monarch as Domination lol).

(also, I'd post screen caps...but uhh, I dunno how to take them )

 

[Cam_H]

It's possible to put your economy back into the black by rearranging your worked tiles, but I agree that it's a long haul to parity with the AI.

... I got caught up in my habits of keeping trash cities ...

They're actually generally pretty good cities - which is doubly annoying!

'Yes' - you've over expanded before you've got your commercial bases covered (CoL, Currency). Provided you keep working the Cottages and don't get attacked, you may be able to peg back your position for a late-game charge.

... also, I'd post screen caps...but uhh, I dunno how to take them ...

Use the 'Print Screen' function on your keyboard (varies, but may be Shift-PrtScn), which will save the image to the Screen Shots folder within My Games > Beyond the Sword. Ideally use a Paint program to manipulate the image if you can. Use the 'Upload' facility provided by CivFanatics (if you don't wish to use another server such as Photo Bucket or your own ISP's space that they might provide for you) - see horizontal menu above, which will include the tags for the image to be inserted into your forum post.

 

[Aamto12]

tch. Well I figured there was nothing I could do. Like I said, Gandhi and Darius literally had my 4 original cities boxed in. Either I let them box me in and I slowly (well quickly) fade out or I forcefully claim the land.

I chose Gandhi because I didn't want to have to deal with Darius's Immortals with no Spearmen. He was pretty easy prey. But even half-way through the war, I was in the red @ 0%. Haha, I'd even go as far to say that I was warring for the money I get from capturing of cities.

Is there any trick to this? I mean, with my 4 cities (and most weren't in ideal situations) only it would've taken a long time to hit CoL and Currency and I probably wouldn't have been able to war effectively. Was it just bad luck or could I have done it better?

Here's the 4000BC save file. I'd like to learn to improve my game on the new difficulty level.

Thanks.

 

[Cam_H]

Aamto,

I played your 4000 B.C. game to 5 B.C. and while it wasn't a dazzling effort that's put me at the top of the score list (remotely), I'll summarise it as;

Spoiler :

• Didn't settle on the spot - saw a 4-way resource split to the east and went there.

• While intending to found two cities - one to the west and another to the south, I ended up only getting the west one out.

• I didn't notice that you'd turned off Barbarians! Went for The Great Wall, and got it. Later to pop a Great Spy and infiltrated an Arabian city for 4,000 EPs and a good passive understanding of our neighbours' positions.

• Churned out eight Chariots and took Delhi and Bombay. Settled for peace as I went 2-for-1 against the Archers and really didn't have the troops to continue, while also wary of 'over expansion'. Gandhi had Axes, so Spears were a likely probability.

• The only other 'trick' I used was to have a shot at The Pyramids. Missed them by 8 turns or something, and got a payout of over 600.

Unlike your game, the religions were split - Persia and Arabia were Hindu, India was Jewish, and Spain was Buddhist. Tech-wise I was able to get to Alphabet and Currency by self-research. Trades included Monarchy and Iron Working. Right now Isabella's about to get Literature and has Marble, so I've bumped Espionage up to 20% and directed all EPs to Spain. Spies will continue to steal technology from Saladin for a long time (have just stolen Mathematics). Still sitting on four cities, I need to fill the great Iron and Gold gaps between Byzantine and my two Indian cities (that are culturally suffering b.t.w.). Isabella may declare on the now crippled Gandhi as she has her 'hands full'. If so, Gandhi might get a declaration from Justinian too. Woof Woof!

I hope some of these thoughts may help. I am finding that having fairly reasonable neighbours makes a huge difference - getting Chariot-rushed by Alex or Catherine in the Classical Era is not much fun. There are more advanced players than myself here - so they might be able to add some alternative and possibly better thoughts.

 

[MrFelony]

While it may seem daunting stepping up from monarch to emperor, i'd say it isnt that much different from the leap up to monarch. it always tests your skill when you jump up a level. all you have to realize is that if you want to play on emperor and not monarch that you wont hold first and you'll have to be more accepting of winning even though you may be in middle position. I've finally believe i've become good enough to win consistantly on emperor but it's taken a concerted effort and maybe a month of playing to reach this point.

diplomacy: in monarch, i found that i never had to worry about pissing people off. I teched better and was generally stronger. to move up to emperor, you will have to learn how to use the AI's against each other and to improve your position. this involves starting infighting between the AIs, building alliances and trade partners, knowing when to trade techs, etc.

Trade: it's important to understand the benefit of trade networks. use your spare resources to secure free money that the AI's have. this will allow you to run more research and decreases their ability to as well.

War: know when you have to declare war and when you dont have to. i remember reading an thread on it somewhere on here. when you have a tech lead and one civ is racing ahead, it can be very beneficial to declare war on them evne though they have a huge power. by killing off tons of their troops, it will help you knock them down a bit. however, if there is peace and they aren't using their power to keep growing there empire, then it may be better to let the upkeep kill their economy.

tons of different aspects are important to learn in order to jump up in the difficulty level, just remember what it was like when you moved up to monarch and it may help keep you motivated

and here's another pointer, always check the diplomacy screen to see who is friendly with who before you go to war...or lets say go on a nuking spree . i decided to nuke one country i didnt need to and destroyed my friendship with salidan so no UN vote from him

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Hehe, the hike in difficulty from Emperor to Immortal is pretty nasty too.

 

[MrFelony]

I think i'll try to just skip immortal and jump to diety

 

[cheffster]

I personally found that emperor was a significant jump up from Monarch, however, I found Immortal to only be slightly harder then Emperor. I play Diety now, and O BOY, it took a while for me to get the hang of it and manage to figure out strats to win (justinians Universitry thread helped me alot).
Immortal - > Diety is like going from Prince -> Emperor/Immortal imo.

Im my games however, I found so long as I have a 'balancing factor', I can keep up or often out-tech the ai, which on diety level, they tech as tho they are playing on settler.

In my first Diety win, I built the Spiral Minerat, UofSankore, and converted my religion to the one that had built the Apolistic Palace. I immediatly built up temples, monastaries in ALL 10 of my cities after this, and the +2, +2, +2 I got from each religious building 'balanced' my severely handicapped Civ vs the Diety AI.
The +40,, across my civ enabled me to keep up, and research key tech which I would then trade like crazy.

In my current epic/Diety game as the Incas, I qeucha rushed an emeny civ and stole 4 workers off the getgo then made peace. This helped my severely handicapped start.

I then built the Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artemis in my capital. I have 5 costal cities, and the extra commerce from all those trade routes is insane.
I was able to get liberalism by 700AD, and got constitution as my free tech to switch to Representation. I got the free Artist from researching music first to burn on a goldenage, and the free great merchant from research economics first to add to my 8 specialists settled in my capital.
ToA + Great Lighthouse is amazingly good: Chemistry in 4 turns on epic speed:

Spoiler :

I don't have that many cities, but I am able to keep a tech lead on deity this way. In my experience/gameplay style, having a specific wonder based strategy to bolster the economy has worked to 'balance' out the handicaps you get on higher levels.

 

[Dan Quale]

I just notice the big jump from emporer/immortal, monarch to emporer wasnt that much of a change really. Immortal/diety is a pretty big jump but immortal/emporer is really where the challenge hits.

As far as overexpanding as long as you have at least alphabet anything can be salvaged, just build research for currency/col, and things will be running well after you can support workers again. Every time I overexpand really rapidly things seem shaky for a while, but after less than 50 turns i usually start pulling away, quickly. Even if I have a tech disparity not in my favor, my much higher population allows my free unit support amount, to be huge compared to that of my enemies, and crush them easily with sheer numbers.

 

[MrFelony]

it also helps that the areas you expand to have rivers for cottages or money resources like dyes, fur, gold or gems

 

[KMadCandy]

to move up to emperor, you will have to learn how to use the AI's against each other and to improve your position. this involves starting infighting between the AIs, building alliances and trade partners, knowing when to trade techs, etc.

Trade: it's important to understand the benefit of trade networks. use your spare resources to secure free money that the AI's have. this will allow you to run more research and decreases their ability to as well.

and here's another pointer, always check the diplomacy screen to see who is friendly with who before you go to war

those 3 are all related too. watch diplomacy when you trade, especially ongoing trades like OB/resources. if one of your neighbors considers another his worst enemy, he'll come by and demand that you cancel with the vile other one, and you're guaranteed a -1 with one side or the other. sometimes no biggie, you think one of 'em's vile too. but particularly when adjusting to a new level, sometimes that's dangerous enough that the trade's not a good idea atm, so it's better to know ahead of time and not open that can of worms, or just cancel the trade on your own with no penalty before mr. psycho comes demanding.

 

[MrFelony]

I hate it when you meet a new civ from a dif continent and you havent had the chance to meet the other civs, but you go ahead and take a good trade they offer and it kicks you in the balls cause he's the black sheep of the other continent.

 

[cheffster]

Matt:

I wanted to hone my warmongering skills so I played from your 4000BC save.

I played VERY similarily to your style and decided to conquer the indians from the getgo with swordsman.

Spoiler :

This was very easy, but likewise to your game, I ran low on gold too.

I had to run only a 20% science slider for a while, but I still teching relaively fast. How?

Spoiler :

It's simple, I built a bunch of wonders, settled some great people, and hired scientists in all my cities.

Some gereral Rules:
-If your not at war, only keep as many military units as you have free support for (F2 is your friend)

Spoiler :

-Build as many wonders as you can. Some people may disagree with me here, but wonder-spamming only works better on higher difficultly levels.
You have ACCESS TO MARBLE, yet in your save you hadn't even built a quarry yet! This astounds me. When you are building wonders, it gives something for a city to work on when it has nothing else pressing to build. If you complete the wonder, great, if not, no big deal you cash in when the AI buids it, its a win-win situation imo.

-Might have been better to raze a few of the Indian cities to the far south, I kept em too in my game, but really the cost wasn't worth it.


I managed to complete the pyramids, since after I had built up enough axe/swordsman, I needed something to spend hammers on, so I figured why not? (I hadn't initially planned to build them). After 25 turns and 5-6 chops I built em!, now I was able to switch to representation for free. Not to mention acrue more GP birth rate points.

Between building units etc, I used all my spare hammers on wonders, I managed to build:
-the stonehenge
-the oracle
-the parthenon
-Temple of Artemis
-Pyramids
-Great Library

All by 295AD, I have settled a great merchant and great prophet in my capital, this alone is giving me +11 gold/turn to pay for maintence. (not to mention +6 , +2, +1) After I finished national epic, I'll be giving birth very quickly to more Great people, and I'll keep adding them to the fortress (and some merchants to that gold city which is starved for food).

I attached some saves if you want to check it out.

 

[Aamto12]

I can see how I squandered an opportunity in this game, but what about a game where I have no marble/stone for those early wonders?

In my latest Emperor try, I did pretty well -- made it to the Industrial Era before being stale-mate'd by Joao II in war (I had a technology advantage but he just had sheer numbers), with a steadily decreasing tech rate on my part. I mean, I wasn't about to lose but I don't feel I could've won.

I've also started to harness the power of Spies (beelined the Liberalism tree while stealing the Guilds line, revolts for loss of culture defense, etc) but I can't really leverage them without getting the Great Wall early for the GSpy points. And that can't happen every game

My typical Emperor games (I've played like 4 games, never completing any, all as Justinian) all follow the same pattern: getting boxed in/cut off with 2-3 cities, massing an army, then waging war. A lot of times, I can get to Cataphracts and wage a decent medieval age war...until 2-3 SoDs with "outdated" units come out and kick my ass. That or I slowly lose to slow research later in the game. Well, I don't actually lose but I dig myself into a hole.

 

[MrFelony]

My typical Emperor games (I've played like 4 games, never completing any, all as Justinian) all follow the same pattern: getting boxed in/cut off with 2-3 cities, massing an army, then waging war. A lot of times, I can get to Cataphracts and wage a decent medieval age war...until 2-3 SoDs with "outdated" units come out and kick my ass. That or I slowly lose to slow research later in the game. Well, I don't actually lose but I dig myself into a hole.

look at justinian's deity thread. he has a great example of blocking off land for future settlement. that's probably one of the more important things to do as the AI tends to settle land much faster when you move up. When I first jumped up I felt the same as you. Another thing is that you DONT need more than 6-9 cities to win the game (depending on what victory you're going for).

this isnt a very good screen shot, but they're all i have on hand. The first picture is of my 2nd and 3rd city. (small continents map, egypt only other civ on continent). I rushed 2 settlers and built in prime spots right outside his capital. I think I got lucky because he is industrious he went for building the GW instead of expansion so I was able to completely block him off from half the continent. look at the mini map, my city order 1-3 was green, yellow, light blue. the 2 red dots are our capitals, his being the lower one. i was able to expand so far away for 2 reasons, the dyes, river cottaging, and being organized.

Spoiler :

But as you can see, I lost my conquest/domination victory to Mehmed and the dumb apostlotic palace. Note to self, just raze everything next time

and the answer to your tech problem are cottages or rep/scientists/cast system. I find, like many people, that hybrids work wonders. I just fell in love with Lizzy or Catherine, whoever the english lady civ is with Phil/Fin. not only can you settle 13 GP, but you can have awesome Cottage cities. I think it may be a lil over powered lol

 

[cheffster]

I can see how I squandered an opportunity in this game, but what about a game where I have no marble/stone for those early wonders?

In my latest Emperor try, I did pretty well -- made it to the Industrial Era before being stale-mate'd by Joao II in war (I had a technology advantage but he just had sheer numbers), with a steadily decreasing tech rate on my part. I mean, I wasn't about to lose but I don't feel I could've won.

I've also started to harness the power of Spies (beelined the Liberalism tree while stealing the Guilds line, revolts for loss of culture defense, etc) but I can't really leverage them without getting the Great Wall early for the GSpy points. And that can't happen every game

My typical Emperor games (I've played like 4 games, never completing any, all as Justinian) all follow the same pattern: getting boxed in/cut off with 2-3 cities, massing an army, then waging war. A lot of times, I can get to Cataphracts and wage a decent medieval age war...until 2-3 SoDs with "outdated" units come out and kick my ass. That or I slowly lose to slow research later in the game. Well, I don't actually lose but I dig myself into a hole.

You don't need marble/stone/industrious for early wonders.

All you need simply is to tech the nessessarly technologies that allow you to build them fast, and chop off the forests by your capital. I usually research Aestetics-> literature before CoL/mathematics or even monotheism, because simply, researching these techs first will give you edge for buildings key wonders like the great library. You do not need need the industrious trait, mathematics for chopping, or even marble or stone in order to build a couple wonders early on, all you need is proper planning, you'd be surprised how easy it can be if you focus resources on wonders.

Imo, Temple of artemis/parthenon are severly underated wonders, that provide a very significant boost to your ecomony. Alot of people like to think "I'll use this scientist to lightbulb philo when the time comes", or "I'll use this preist for a shrine", etc... but honestly, the power of settled great people early on is unparralled in terms of boosting your economy to the nessessary level in order to maintain alot of cities and support a growing military. (Even without the pyramids for early representation) Generally, I settle the first 4 great people in my capital, and build 3-4 wonders in order to have birth points to farm to GP without having to starve cities. The oracle should ALWAYS be a priority regardless if you have marble or not, all it takes is a couple chops and 6-9 turns of building it.


Furthermore, it just takes practice, the more you play, the more you will learn. Being able to win consistently on emperor+ means having a deep insight into diplomacy, and being able walk that delicate balance beam between infastructure and military.

Understand that if you want to avoid those "SoD"s that come massing in with outdated units sometimes its best to give in to demands that rival civs make - this will boost relations and ensure they don't attack you while you are unprepared.

Understand how religion affects relations, being the same religion as a neighbour usually means you dont need to worry about them attacking you (excpet alexander). Generally, founding religions early on is completely unessessary and will give a negative relations hit to civs of different religions.

Also, its good to later convert religion to the one that build the Apolistic palance, especially being spiritual - having cheap temples and no anarchy, there's not reason you shouldn't convert in order to get the free +2 per temple, (as long as any neighbouring cities to civs with a different religion are defended)


I found the jump from Monarch -> Emperor tough, but after reading some of obseletes threads like this one: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243033 it gave me some addition insight into winning on high difficulties.

I was really bored today and played from your 4000AD save untill 1768, heres a few snapshots.

Spoiler :

My cities:

Military City

And capital

 

[MrFelony]

man cheffster, that combat city is crazy!

21 xp without theocrazy or vassalage (does anyone ever use this? lol)...10 for drafter units...i'm jealous lol.

and cheffster is right about giving into demands or helping a friendly civ out. an added bonus for giving into demands is that you have at least 10 turns before they can declare war on you if you need some time to build up troops (at least i believe so since it works that way for us)

 

[cheffster]

man cheffster, that combat city is crazy!

21 xp without theocrazy or vassalage (does anyone ever use this? lol)...10 for drafter units...i'm jealous lol.

and cheffster is right about giving into demands or helping a friendly civ out. an added bonus for giving into demands is that you have at least 10 turns before they can declare war on you if you need some time to build up troops (at least i believe so since it works that way for us)

Yeah, lol, I rarely nest THAT many great generals in one city, but I wanted to see for fun if I could get combat V infantry/tanks in 1 turn. The reason is because since the Byzantines are imperalistic, I kept getting lots of Great generals and I find landing them on troops is a total waste since they always die, SO, I just kept settling them in my military city. I also got the free Great General for discovering Fascism first I attached the save is any1 wants to check it out.

Soon Ill have amassed an army of combat V infantry, Commando cannons, and combat IV/march Calvary to take out isabella's longbows and catapults rofl.

 

[Phrederick]

I just went through your cities, whipped all the libraries, deleted all the warriors, put all the cities on max commerce, and signed an open borders agreement with Isabella. Now you're at +12g/turn. You have a pretty sweet position, if you can avoid war until after you have civil service. Your land is good, and you have a lot of it. Just focus on cottages and scientists, and go for currency and CoL.