March Patch Notes (formerly february)

[Zyxpsilon]

Three potshots at an artillery passing by (or setting up) nearly enough is high defensive odds for a city grid - is all i'm gonna say about the validity of 3+/MCDs other than ICS territorial tiles grabbing. As much as i hate lowest range of offensive attacks against strong targets such as Capitals without nearby help.

 

[vanjito]

Any of you concerned with the AI 'cheating'?
I once left enemy Paris to 1 tile (great artist spam) and it built Sistine Chapel and France had +28GPT (with obvious coin from their capital)

 

[Calouste]

You're making a good point that shorter city spacing is naturally better, but I agree with that entirely and it's actually part of the point I was trying to make... so I think I didn't word things well, sorry about that!

What I'm saying is there's a difference between:

• 3-tile spacing as naturally the ideal distance
• 3-tile spacing forced by a rule

Even if cities are required to be three tiles apart, the underlying reasons for the problem are still there. These reasons are the ones you described and others. It's important to tackle these root causes of the problem and fix them directly. It takes less time and effort to hide the problems with a restriction on the player, but in the long run it's counterproductive because it gradually reduces decision-making.

This is why I made the analogy to scientists. Removing scientists from the early game didn't make lightbulbing any less overpowered, it just reduced decision-making opportunities in the early game. It's goes in the opposite direction of the saying "a game is a series of interesting decisions," because no choice at all is the least interesting decision.

There were some other solutions to the lightbulbing problem that would have been worth a try,for example that you can't bulb into an era that you don't have any tech in yet, or that you can bulb a tech that is more than one era further than your earliest tech that is still open (i.e. you can't bulb Medieval techs unless you have completed all Ancient techs). That would make creating an Academy actually an interesting option with an early Great Scientist instead of bulbing Civil Service.

 

[LegionSteve]

There were some other solutions to the lightbulbing problem that would have been worth a try,for example that you can't bulb into an era that you don't have any tech in yet, or that you can bulb a tech that is more than one era further than your earliest tech that is still open (i.e. you can't bulb Medieval techs unless you have completed all Ancient techs). That would make creating an Academy actually an interesting option with an early Great Scientist instead of bulbing Civil Service.

Or instead of a free tech, make the GS dump an amount of into your general pool for you to spend on whatever you want to research. The amount of you get could scale with era, and could easily be adjusted if it seemed to powerful. Removing early GS was a panic response

 

[Horizons]

Ah yes, the typical Civ5 patch: nerf, nerf, nerf! + add a couple of new buildings.

 

[Civsassin]

There were some other solutions to the lightbulbing problem that would have been worth a try,for example that you can't bulb into an era that you don't have any tech in yet, or that you can bulb a tech that is more than one era further than your earliest tech that is still open (i.e. you can't bulb Medieval techs unless you have completed all Ancient techs). That would make creating an Academy actually an interesting option with an early Great Scientist instead of bulbing Civil Service.

IMO, the early academy is the best option. It's true that you get a one time boost to your tech with an early free tech, but +5 bulbs - +6 with the upcoming patch - combined with a library and national college early in the game are game changers. I am able to keep up with the AI at IMM difficulty. In fact, I carpet my capital with academy's until the techs are worth the GS. Usually in the Renaissance era. Try this with Babylon for a really early boost to your teching.

 

[spider1]

I really hope they release this by the weekend. I’d like to have the time after the release to fully explore all these changes and see what they do to my strategy and game play. I’m sure my early game policy choices are going to be different now.

I haven’t played France since doing so just to get the achievement, but I might give this idea a try.

Opening Tradition policy = + 3 Culture in the capital
Legalism gives a free culture building in first four cities
Liberty + 1 culture per turn in all cities
Meritocracy free GP of choice, take the GA and build a landmark on a good workable tile

Add in the normal culture bonus, and France is an early policy hog. I’m sure I’m going to give this idea a try.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Ah yes, the typical Civ5 patch: nerf, nerf, nerf! + add a couple of new buildings.

I especially like the nerfs to city growth, Granaries, Markets, mine & quarry production, Stables, Forges, Plantations, Pastures, Wells, Offshore Platforms . . .

 

[redmosquito]

Ah yes, the typical Civ5 patch: nerf, nerf, nerf! + add a couple of new buildings.

This

 

[Thormodr]

I finally bit the bullet and loaded up Civilization 5 again. I figured that way I could better judge the new patch when it comes out and be able to make informed decisions. (I hadn't played since mid October)

Wow! It's still an awful mess with insane AI.

I was great friends with Egypt and gave them free resources for the longest time. I was also great friends with Germany and England who were all on the same continent with me. I had a friendship pact with Egypt and this made Germany very happy.

The problem was Egypt was ICSing everywhere like a cockroach. (With +35 happiness and 13 fricking social policies! (To my 9 and I had half the cities. WTH. I also was only at +3 happiness.))
They got greedy and started sending settlers into my land to go after a place on the peninsula I was on but hadn't settled yet. I was only at +3 happiness at the time and I wanted to wait until a colosseum came in before I settled the area. So, I told Egypt not to settle cities near me.

Well! All hell broke loose. Egypt started insulting me and denounced me. Then Germany and England. They all went hostile after thousands of years of friendly relations where I supplied them with free resources. (I had a lot of extra Whales and Silk) Russia was always unfriendly but they stayed about the same.

After that, whenever I met other AIs on other continents they always started out Friendly and I'd trade some resources right off the bat. Like clockwork however, within 1 or 2 turns they denounced me and turned hostile. They had heard of "what I did" or something.

All because of one "Don't settle cities near me" to one AI. You'd think I'd committed heinous crimes against humanity or something.

Seriously, they better fix the crappy AI and the insane diplomacy or the game still won't be worth a damn. I thought Civ III was bad for that but this takes things to a whole new level.

All the balancing in the world isn't going to amount to much until they do.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Thormodr, at least you've found the reason to be annoyed I'm just bored

I too started up CivRev 2.0 the other day (didn't play for over three months), largely thanks to MadDjinn's videos and news about upcoming patch. I've had few games and none of them was keeping me interested long enough to reach even Industrial Era, most likely because other than war the game is boring, and warring with AI that has mental fortitude of catatonic 6year old is worse so I chose building.


As for the "diplo" I've had a funny moment when I was Friendly with all five AI on my landmass (Fractal), and then I dared to found my fourth city while others had 3-4 each. Within one turn I got denounced, and turn later declared by three AI's. Apparently I was "founding new cities too aggresively" for all of them

The best part was that I've had my cities nowhere near other AIs (Large map), and despite being sort of dogpiled I had no problems other than swatting zombie AI units that were mindlessly wondering around my lands. I mean, not even pillage or anything - just erratic movements from one place to another while being sniped by archers/cats/city defenders

Such a shame, I really want to like this game, and yet it disappoints me every time I start it. Instead of releasing crappy DLC's with crappy civs (Spain is a joke as well as this terrace farm, and knowledge that I got them free from D2D offer doesn't improve my mood) how about fixing fooking AI and the existing Civs UA (Ottomans I'm looking at you!).

Nah, we'll get more nerfs "soon".

 

[Martin Alvito]

IMO, the early academy is the best option.

Right now, Babylon almost always should drop an Academy with the Writing GS. By the time you'd be bulbing a tech, you've gotten nearly the equivalent in from the Academy, with pure profit going forwards.

This is not true for any other Great Scientist, since it won't be showing up until about turn 100 at the earliest with Siam. With the small number of remaining turns at that point, it's pretty much impossible for an Academy to compete with a 2000-3000 bulb later no matter how heavily you stack the city with modifiers.

It may not even be true for the Babylon GS post-patch. The free Meritocracy GP brings fast Babylon Rifle rushes back into play, and at that point it may be worthwhile to save the GS to bulb and get the engine started faster. Turn 80 Rifles are still going to make the Deity AI sad, and I believe that's entirely within the realm of possibility again.

Nah, we'll get more nerfs "soon".

As long as they keep making obviously ignorant buffs such as the rework of Landed Elite, the game will need nerfs. I don't see Landed Elite in its new form or the free Meritocracy GP lasting long. I like that the devs are trying to make early SPs worthwhile and also are providing us ways to get them, but those two changes are just bad ideas.

 

[Mustakrakish]

I finally bit the bullet and loaded up Civilization 5 again. I figured that way I could better judge the new patch when it comes out and be able to make informed decisions. (I hadn't played since mid October)

Wow! It's still an awful mess with insane AI.

But... the patch isn't out yet, is it?

EDIT: Oh, you're talking about the December patch... Silly me.

 

[Guardian_PL]

But... the patch isn't out yet, is it?

EDIT: Oh, you're talking about the December patch... Silly me.

Partially you're right, he's talking to try to refresh the game experience before and after the patch, same what I did.

 

[Mustakrakish]

It's a good idea I guess, but I couldn't do it. Whenever a patch is announced I just stop playing altogether until it comes out. It just doesn't seem interesting to play and experience things that will no longer be a part of the official game. The game just feels even more empty and broken, knowing that this and that will be officially "out", "cleansed" etc...

 

[Bibor]

I finally bit the bullet and loaded up Civilization 5 again. I figured that way I could better judge the new patch when it comes out and be able to make informed decisions. (I hadn't played since mid October)

Wow! It's still an awful mess with insane AI.

I was great friends with Egypt and gave them free resources for the longest time. I was also great friends with Germany and England who were all on the same continent with me. I had a friendship pact with Egypt and this made Germany very happy.

The problem was Egypt was ICSing everywhere like a cockroach. (With +35 happiness and 13 fricking social policies! (To my 9 and I had half the cities. WTH. I also was only at +3 happiness.))
They got greedy and started sending settlers into my land to go after a place on the peninsula I was on but hadn't settled yet. I was only at +3 happiness at the time and I wanted to wait until a colosseum came in before I settled the area. So, I told Egypt not to settle cities near me.

Well! All hell broke loose. Egypt started insulting me and denounced me. Then Germany and England. They all went hostile after thousands of years of friendly relations where I supplied them with free resources. (I had a lot of extra Whales and Silk) Russia was always unfriendly but they stayed about the same.

After that, whenever I met other AIs on other continents they always started out Friendly and I'd trade some resources right off the bat. Like clockwork however, within 1 or 2 turns they denounced me and turned hostile. They had heard of "what I did" or something.

All because of one "Don't settle cities near me" to one AI. You'd think I'd committed heinous crimes against humanity or something.

Seriously, they better fix the crappy AI and the insane diplomacy or the game still won't be worth a damn. I thought Civ III was bad for that but this takes things to a whole new level.

All the balancing in the world isn't going to amount to much until they do.

The chain denouncements are going to be fixed in the FEB patch. As for the AIs, well Egypt is an ass and whatever you did to him tends to stick forever. Germany is the biggest war psycho out there (replacing Monty from CIV4); easily bribed, quick to backstab/denounce, hard needy when friends and in general .. yea, an ass.

Currently the most serious issues with AIs right now are:
a) chain and infinite denouncements
b) treating a unit like "own borders" for "units just passing by" question
c) "you expand too quickly" should also be tied to landmass/distance; sometimes this goes way too far.

There are some other tweaks neccessary, but nothing dramatic. Most issues come from the fact players think diplomacy is a passive bonus to what they are already doing. Diplomacy is a minigame and you need to play it. Sometimes very often. Sometimes spending money and resources diplomacy is more important than building stuff. At least how it is in CIV5.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

I finally bit the bullet and loaded up Civilization 5 again. I figured that way I could better judge the new patch when it comes out and be able to make informed decisions. (I hadn't played since mid October)

Can't judge a book by reading the first page only. And four months later, trying the recall what the initial chapter was about.
So, i'd recommend this; play more than once before risking an argument in a comparative thread where experienced players have a much better grasp over before_after facts.
It took most of us weeks to detect how extensive v1141 changed balance or diplomacy.

And by that i mean, hate or like through cumulative gameplay observations. Random conditions are too complex of a chaos to claim one Patch=One game results.
Ask total modders, they'll trace their own decisions on consistant pattern rather than a single wild guess - highly variable i might add.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Btw, Bibor make sure you track out parameters for the "Diplo+crunching_Numbers_List" sheet accessible in your sig -- since, that too will help some to catch up. If anything edit its reference text (From Confused...) to indicate the exact date of any update(s).
Cuz, once *THAT* v???? patch is out -- the past is over in absolute terms, again.

 

[bhavv]

Any of you concerned with the AI 'cheating'?
I once left enemy Paris to 1 tile (great artist spam) and it built Sistine Chapel and France had +28GPT (with obvious coin from their capital)

Why would anyone be concerned with what the AI has been doing ever since Civ 1?

In everysingle civ game ever made, the AI cheats. It cheats an awful lot, because that is the only way to keep the AI challenging.

 

[Clement]

I finally bit the bullet and loaded up Civilization 5 again. I figured that way I could better judge the new patch when it comes out and be able to make informed decisions. (I hadn't played since mid October)

Wow! It's still an awful mess with insane AI.

I was great friends with Egypt and gave them free resources for the longest time. I was also great friends with Germany and England who were all on the same continent with me. I had a friendship pact with Egypt and this made Germany very happy.

The problem was Egypt was ICSing everywhere like a cockroach. (With +35 happiness and 13 fricking social policies! (To my 9 and I had half the cities. WTH. I also was only at +3 happiness.))
They got greedy and started sending settlers into my land to go after a place on the peninsula I was on but hadn't settled yet. I was only at +3 happiness at the time and I wanted to wait until a colosseum came in before I settled the area. So, I told Egypt not to settle cities near me.

Well! All hell broke loose. Egypt started insulting me and denounced me. Then Germany and England. They all went hostile after thousands of years of friendly relations where I supplied them with free resources. (I had a lot of extra Whales and Silk) Russia was always unfriendly but they stayed about the same.

After that, whenever I met other AIs on other continents they always started out Friendly and I'd trade some resources right off the bat. Like clockwork however, within 1 or 2 turns they denounced me and turned hostile. They had heard of "what I did" or something.

All because of one "Don't settle cities near me" to one AI. You'd think I'd committed heinous crimes against humanity or something.

Seriously, they better fix the crappy AI and the insane diplomacy or the game still won't be worth a damn. I thought Civ III was bad for that but this takes things to a whole new level.

All the balancing in the world isn't going to amount to much until they do.

I would have to agree with you.