Master Siegesmith

[Valkrionn]

Think I'll get more traffic this way, and it'll keep the FFPlus thread a bit cleaner.

The next release of my mod will contain a Master Siegesmith, available with Construction, but most of the promotions require a more advanced tech or resource.

Rignt now, I need more civ-specific ideas, and artwork for the promotions... Feel free to suggest anything, if I like it it will make it in. So far, the promotions are mostly by Milaga, with a few of Vermicious's thrown in.

I have 7 Shot Promotions, of which you are only allowed one at a time... 3 are for catapult-level units only, 2 are for all siege, and 2 are cannon-level units only. Of these, 2 of the catapult shots are exclusive to certain civilizations.

There are then 12 general promotions, of which a whopping 7 are for the Khazad, the Mechanos, or both. The Luchuirp, Hippus, and Austrin also make a showing. Granted, the Improved Machinery and Artillery promotions for the Khazad are the same thing for different units, but they are seperate to force the player to spend more money.



Shot Promotions. Only one may be selected at a time.

1. Plague Infested Shot - button done
   • UnitClass Catapult-only
   • Requires Evil
   • Requires Sheaim or Infernal or Balseraphs or Legion of D'Tesh civilization
   • 0.50 in enemy cities within 1 tile
   • +10% ranged damage limit
   • +10% collateral damage limit
   • Passes the Diseased promotion to enemy combatants
   • 30 Gold
2. Blackblood Shot - button done
   • UnitClass Catapult-only
   • Requires Scions of Patria civilization
   • Requires a Spirit Mill in the city
   • Requires Pigs
   • +1 ranged attack
   • +5% ranged damage limit
   • +10% collateral damage limit
   • Passes the Blackblood promotion to enemy combatants
   • 50 Gold
3. Explosive Shot (designed for civs that can't build cannons)
   • UnitClass Catapult-only
   • +15% bombard per turn
   • +2
   • +25% city attack
   • +1 ranged attack
   • +5% ranged damage limit
   • Requires Blasting Powder
   • 120 Gold
4. Sighted Shot - button done
   • +1 Range
   • -25%
   • 100 Gold
5. Flaming Shot - button done
   • +5% bombard per turn
   • +1 Fire
   • +50% forest attack
   • +50% naval units
   • Requires Smelting
   • 50 Gold
6. Grapeshot - button done
   • UnitClass Cannon-only
   • 2 extra Collateral Targets.
   • +15% vs Mounted and Melee
   • -1 Range
   • -25% City Attack
   • -50% Bombard rate.
   • 60 Gold
7. Canister Shot - button done
   • UnitClass Cannon-only
   • 2 extra Collateral Targets.
   • +40% Collateral Damage.
   • +25% vs Mounted and Melee
   • +1
   • Requires Gunpowder
   • 100 Gold

General promotions. If they can't be used by cannons/catapults they'll be listed.:

• Well-Trained
  • Blitz
  • 100 Gold
• Fine Craftsmanship
  • +10%
  • 0-1 extra first strike
  • Requires Construction
  • Removed if Excellent Craftsmanship or Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
  • 30 Gold
• Excellent Craftsmanship
  • +20%
  • 1 extra first strike
  • Requires Engineering
  • Removed if Superior Craftsmanship or Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
  • 40 Gold
• Superior Craftsmanship
  • +30%
  • 1-2 extra first strikes
  • +20% city attack
  • Requires Mithril Working
  • Removed if Artisan Crafted promotion is taken
  • 80 Gold
• Artisan Crafted
  • Requires Khazad or Luchuirp or Mechanos civilization
  • +40%
  • 2-3 extra first strikes
  • +30% city attack
  • +20% defense
  • Requires Machinery
  • 120 Gold
• Improved Machinery
  • Requires Khazad civilization
  • +1 range
  • Requires Optics
  • Requires Trebuchet
  • 50 Gold
• Artillery - button done
  • Requires Khazad civilization
  • +1 range
  • Requires Astronomy
  • Requires Dwarven Cannon
  • 100 Gold
• Improved Accuracy
  • +1 ranged attack
  • +10% ranged attack limit
  • Requires Optics
  • 80 Gold
• Deadeye Crew
  • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
  • +1 ranged attack
  • +10% ranged attack limit
  • 1 first strike
  • Requires Guilds
  • 180 Gold
• Point Defense System
  • Requires Khazad or Mechanos civilization
  • +100% defensive strength
  • +25% hill defense
  • Requires Iron Working
  • 40 Gold
• Doubletime Team
  • Requires Khazad or Mechanos or Austrin or Hippus civilization
  • +1
  • +1 terrain cost
  • -50%
  • Requires Horseback Riding
  • 40 Gold
• Resident Machine Spirit - button done
  • Requires Mechanos civilization
  • Randomly grants the Machine Spirit promotion (20% turn)
  • Requires Arcane Lore
  • 200 Gold
• Pontoons
  • Double movement in Marsh.
  • 40 Gold
• Amphibious Assault
  • Requires Cualli or Mazatl civilization
  • No combat penalty for attacking from sea/across rivers.
  • Double movement in Jungle.
  • +15% in Marsh.
  • Water Walking (coastal tiles only)
  • 60 Gold

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think that Plague Infested Shot should be allowed to other evil civs too.
I meen, I can see someone like the Calibim or Archos use it just as lorevise as the mad jester.

 

[WarKirby]

My thoughts.

1. Plague infested shot should cause a healing rate penalty for units in your own stack, but it should be available to anyone.


2. Sighted shot doesn't really belong in the ammo type category. I'd rename it "spotter" and put it in the general upgrades

3. Grapeshot shouldn't require gunpowder, and it shouldn't only be restricted to cannons. A catapult can toss hundreds of small objects too.

 

[Brokenbone]

All interesting ideas, one I wanted to focus on for a moment... "Doubletime team."

What if you could "buy" that as a temporary promotion, call it for five or ten turns, by sacrificing a spare slave who's sharing a tile with the siege engine? "Sorry boys, you're going to be pushing this thing, on a force march, and I expect you all to be dead by the time we reach the gates of Evermore." Maybe just call the spell "force march" and tie it to an evil alignment or running the slavery civic or something of that nature.

Of course, the suggested form of "Doubletime" seems cool as well as a permanent kind of thing, just thinking of situational, tactical kinds of ways to get to the same ends. Buy a bunch of slaves from the Undercouncil to accompany your stacks and get into a whipping frenzy (although not the traditional "sacrifice citizens for production" definition of the term).

 

[far_wanderer]

The craftsmanship promotions should block their lower-level versions, rather than being replaced by them. It'll cut down on complexity and keep people from accidentally downgrading.

Deadeye, Point Defense, and Double-time probably don't need to be limited to specific civs.

I only have one new idea for now, I'll check back in later tonight when I have more time.

>Pontoons - Mazatl and Cualli only - Double movement in Marsh and Jungle.

 

[Valkrionn]

My thoughts.

1. Plague infested shot should cause a healing rate penalty for units in your own stack, but it should be available to anyone.

2. Sighted shot doesn't really belong in the ammo type category. I'd rename it "spotter" and put it in the general upgrades

3. Grapeshot shouldn't require gunpowder, and it shouldn't only be restricted to cannons. A catapult can toss hundreds of small objects too.

Hmm... I like plague shot as an evil upgrade, but I might remove the civ restriction. So any evil civs can use it.

Sighted Shot is grouped with the shots, because it's actually very powerful. Extra range can do alot.

True, but then I have no cannon-shots.

The craftsmanship promotions should block their lower-level versions, rather than being replaced by them. It'll cut down on complexity and keep people from accidentally downgrading.

Deadeye, Point Defense, and Double-time probably don't need to be limited to specific civs.

I only have one new idea for now, I'll check back in later tonight when I have more time.

>Pontoons - Mazatl and Cualli only - Double movement in Marsh and Jungle.

That's actually how they work. They replace them, so you have to spend more money, but once you take a higher one you are unable to take the lesser.

True, although Double-time I think I'll leave restricted...

And I like your Pontoons idea.

 

[Milaga]

1. Plague infested shot should cause a healing rate penalty for units in your own stack, but it should be available to anyone.

Throwing diseased corpses at your enemy is dirty pool. I thought only the evilest (or insane-est) civs should have access to it. At the very least it should require evil and perhaps give an alignment hit to those who select it.

3. Grapeshot shouldn't require gunpowder, and it shouldn't only be restricted to cannons. A catapult can toss hundreds of small objects too.

I'm not a medieval war buff so correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think flinging hundreds of pebbles up in the air has quite the same impact as a boulder.

Deadeye, Point Defense, and Double-time probably don't need to be limited to specific civs.

Some of them are pretty powerful and reflect the civs aptitude at siege weapons. Doubletime team really is just having a bunch of (extra) pack animals to move the weapon around quicker.

>Pontoons - Mazatl and Cualli only - Double movement in Marsh and Jungle.

I was trying to think of something for the lizards but I don't know why I didn't think of this. Marsh and Swamp double movement would be better since I really see forests and jungles being quite a hindrance to maneuvering the weapon despite how much you like them. This is also something that anyone could use but it adds a bit more flavor if just left to the lizards.

 

[WarKirby]

Hmm... I like plague shot as an evil upgrade, but I might remove the civ restriction. So any evil civs can use it.

Punishment, not restriction.
Make anyone able to use it, and make doing so lower your alignment a little. -10 or so.

Broader alignments certainly needs more things


To be honest, though, there's not that much more evil about using plague ammo, than there is fire ammo. Ever seen victims of napalm attacks in vietnam?

War is war. It's pretty evil in general.

 

[Tarquelne]

3. Grapeshot shouldn't require gunpowder, and it shouldn't only be restricted to cannons. A catapult can toss hundreds of small objects too.

Cannon-fired grapeshot is effective because the small objects are hurled with such a high force. Unless your target is *right* in front of the catapult it is not at all the same. Catapult grapeshot might make you say "ouch", it might put someone's eye out, it might make you slip and fall... but it is not, for example, going to shred a crowd, let alone disperse an rebellion if they get a whiff of it.

Catapults firing lots of not-so-small objects could more readily hurt or even kill... but I doubt it'd be worth the special ammo type. (Or even worth using. A big ball *will* kill whomever crushes, is useful in sieges, and has a shot at big creatures. Lots of small objects might be warded off by good shields, aren't a sure-kill vs. people-sized targets and far less useful for sieges, etc.)

***

Blackblood arrows require the Pig resource. Just sayin'.

 

[Valkrionn]

So does Blackblood shot, actually...... Forgot to put it in the list, but I noticed that when I was getting the button art and added it.

 

[far_wanderer]

That's actually how they work. They replace them, so you have to spend more money, but once you take a higher one you are unable to take the lesser.

Good, that will keep things simpler. I mentioned it because your changelog says each is removed by the others, you might want to fix that.

Some of them are pretty powerful and reflect the civs aptitude at siege weapons. Doubletime team really is just having a bunch of (extra) pack animals to move the weapon around quicker.

My feeling has always been that any civ that builds a Master building has just developed an exceptional aptitude in that particular field, so civ-specific equipment should generally represent the contributions of a related type of expertise. Artisan Craftsmanship does that, because it represents an increased skill at making machinery function. The three I listed felt more siege-specific to me, so I felt that they should be more available to a generic master siegesmith.

 

[sputnik323]

Does this mean there will eventually be a master magesmith too?

 

[Valkrionn]

Master Enchanter sounds better. Haven't decided yet though.

 

[Milaga]

Punishment, not restriction.
Make anyone able to use it, and make doing so lower your alignment a little. -10 or so.

Broader alignments certainly needs more things

I agree. I really do like the broad alignment system, but it needs to be ingrained much deeper in FF than it is now to really be interesting. It's also an option right now, and thus alignment hits are really optional penalties and not reliable deterrents.

And yes, war is nasty. But people have their limits in war. I originally left some civs out of the list because I thought, despite their "evilness" some civs might consider themselves above flinging dead, bloated and perhaps magically diseased cows. And fire cleanses. Cows just smell bad.

My feeling has always been that any civ that builds a Master building has just developed an exceptional aptitude in that particular field, so civ-specific equipment should generally represent the contributions of a related type of expertise. Artisan Craftsmanship does that, because it represents an increased skill at making machinery function. The three I listed felt more siege-specific to me, so I felt that they should be more available to a generic master siegesmith.

Hmm ... The thought I had when I created the list is that the inherent differences in civilizations cause artisans in a particular field to think a different way when they go about their craft. The all-civ promotions are the benefit a civ gets when they dedicate the resources to becoming master seigesmiths. But some civs have a culture that works very well with a seigesmith. The Luchuirp, for example, have a culture where craftmanship is formost. While the Bannor may be able to produce truly fine siege weapons if they dedicate the resources to this end, they will never be able to match those of a Luchuirp civ that dedicates the same resources but has a population full of master craftsman.

Besides, parity is boring. Differences, damning the imbalances, make the game more interesting.

 

[Valkrionn]

Updated the first post with the Pontoon promotion... I'm thinking very hard about making it generic, as it's something anyone could use, taking away the combat bonus, and making an advanced version for the lizards that has the combat bonus, and allows water walking on coast. Truly amphibious sieges....

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Updated the first post with the Pontoon promotion... I'm thinking very hard about making it generic, as it's something anyone could use, taking away the combat bonus, and making an advanced version for the lizards that has the combat bonus, and allows water walking on coast. Truly amphibious sieges....

Not generic, but add another similar one for OO civs. It would make sense to have drowns push a catapult.
Prehaps make it so that you have to sacrafice one to add the promotion to the siege weapon.

Lore vise, the Mazatl can just get it becouse their crews can swim, but for the rest of us, it would require someone that can.

 

[Valkrionn]

Think I am going to make it generic, or at least, double movement in marsh. Having pontoons will make it easier to move, regardless of who's using it. The lizards just have the ability to make much better pontoons.

• Pontoons
  • Double movement in Marsh.
  • 40 Gold
• Amphibious Assault
  • Requires Cualli or Mazatl civilization
  • No combat penalty for attacking from sea/across rivers.
  • Double movement in Jungle.
  • +15% in Marsh.
  • Water Walking (coastal tiles only)
  • 60 Gold

 

[WarKirby]

Grapeshot is small objects shoved into the barrel. Cannister shot has them contained in a small bomb, allowing them to stay together until they get to the destination and then explode with more penetrating power.... The one is for close range, the other is distance and taking out city fortifications. I've actually added a city attack bonus (25%) to it, forgot to update the list.

According to wikipedia, grapeshot was traditionally contained in a small bag. And canister shot was contained in a metal container, which disintegrates upon firing.

When fired, the canister disintegrates and its shards and projectiles spread out in a conical formation, causing a wide swath of destruction. It was particularly effective during the Napoleonic Wars and the American Civil War, where massed troops at close range (usually less than 400 yards) could be broken up by artillery batteries firing canister. At times, particularly at very close range, artillery crews would fire extremely lethal "double canister," where two rounds were loaded into the gun tube and fired simultaneously using a single charge. Canister played a key role in dispersing the troops assigned to support Pickett's Charge during the Battle of Gettysburg in July 1863 (see Field Artillery in the American Civil War for more information).

It's also discussed here: http://www.militaryheritage.com/caseshot.htm

In the eighteenth century, grape shot was a general term embracing all forms of artillery ammunition made up of small shot. Tin case shot was originally classified as a variety of grape shot. The same period (about 1745) saw the formal introduction of light field artillery as a class. One reference notes that tin case shot was recommended for field service on the grounds that it was more compact and less expensive, and the inference is that before this date, some other form of grape shot had been in use. The same manuscript refers to matted grape and cluilted grape, and makes it clear that the nine shot quilted grape which is comparatively well known was specifically for sea service.

Case shot is essentially an ammunition designed for use against men and animals, -- infantry and cavalry. Case shot was fired for practice and experiment against inanimate targets, frequently placed one behind the other, and usually with a distance of 200 yards between them. The dimensions of these targets are not usually given, but where they are it appears that the standard size was 30 yards in width and nine feet high. Since 30 yards is the frontage of a company of infantry, and nine feet about the height of a mounted man, it seems that the standard target was designed to represent a regiment advancing to the attack in a succession of sub units. This was the principal use of case shot in formal battle.

Nothing is mentioned about it being used against fortifications that I can find,, and city walls were generally becoming obsolete when cannons were coming into play.


Anyways, my general point here. Make Grapeshot and Canister shot have the same effect

• more collateral damage
• more collateral targets
• LESS city attack. It's a field weapon

Make Canister shot a better version of it. Perhaps requiring Machinery (for the manufacturing) or simply a higher cost.

 

[Valkrionn]

haha I'm not actually going off traditional uses here. I wanted an anti-cavalry shot, and a collateral-dmg city attack shot. The idea I'm using is of a steel canister, containing a charge in the bottom with a long fuse that is ignited when the canister is shot... The grapeshot in the canister would cause more unit dmg than a single large ball, and the explosive charge would be good at taking out fortifications if it went off at the bottom of a wall. It would also be perfect for city combat... Fire it in the air over the city, and you have a rain of death.

 

[WarKirby]

But you generally don't get a collateral damage city attacking application. The whole point of walls is to prevent that. That's why you'd have one cannon for breaking the walls, and another specifically designed for causing collateral to those within.