Math01 - My first SG: OCC Space Race

[Renata]

I can't play until at least Monday night (Tuesday if I'm too tired) -- the aforementioned paper. If I tried to play today, I would have to rush like nobodies business, and, OCC or not, would be sure to miss something stupid. If Chuck is around and would like to swap, that's cool with me. I'd rather not be skipped outright if possible.

I did take a peek at the save. Sumeria is definitely about to get Theology, as they won't give up a tech for it, so seconded on the "sell it now". Also seconded on going for banking; there has to be at least a halfway decent chance of the AIs coming up with gunpowder in the next 10-15 turns.

*Still* no harbors, eh? Silly AI.

After Cop's we could get out a fourth worker and build a few barricades as insurance against future cavalry invasions -- the AIs will be starting to seriously push our borders in pretty soon. If there's time left before the Newton's prebuild has to start (I don't have time to try to figure that out), and if we've been able to trade for any resources, we could build a few more up-to-date military units (after building a temporary barracks). A bank wouldn't be competely horrible to have, either, as it would pay for itself every time research was turned down for a turn or two and might pay off more down the road, but it's hardly urgent.

About the only other thing I could add (if I don't wind up playing next) is to try to get Music Theory if and when the AI come up with it, because I'm not sure how long Sistine and Leo's will last as prebuild material for Newtons.

Edit: Thanks for the Happy Mother's Day, Mathias, but it's a tad premature.

Renata

 

[Mathias]

We must trade theology before anyone else figures it out. Sumeria is close - they won't give us invention for it.

On the Press, if we are going to research it ourselves, we might as well go for it right after Astronomy.

We can run postive fpt with the forests: -1 base commerce and -2 (or 3) shields for +2 food. That's why I have been pushing the irrigation from the start.

Wealth indeed. I doubt that we will get enough luxes to build happiness improvements.

Nix the new units idea. We can upgrade our spears when the time comes, and they will ignore us longer if we have only the spears. I'm sure you all know how aggressive the Aztecs are: check out this screenshot.

The AI are a long way from Music Theory - we can worry about that when the time comes.

 

[dl123654]

I lowered science because some deals were ending and I rather have money now and push negative research when our research is better then run a decifit now a risk running out of money later, during our turnset I made us 150 gold.

There are two more non-bonus grasslands on the river

Never thought to forest the wines and wheat.

 

[Mathias]

Your intentions were good. The problem is that we don't need gold for anything except paying maintenance and support costs while we run max science. Soon, the AI will be paying us more than enough to cover our expenses. It is unlikely that we would have run out of gold.

 

[Mathias]

I've been looking at AI research and...

From Mach's turnchat:
The Zulu discovered Engineering in 230 BC (turn 116)
The Russians figured it out one turn later, in 210 BC (turn 117)

and from dl123654's turnchat:
The Zulu discovered Invention in 190 AD (turn 137)
The Russians figured it out one turn later, in 210 AD (turn 138)

As you can see, both the Zulu and the Russians researched Invention in 21 turns. Assuming they continue at the same rate, it will take them 23 turns to research Gunpowder. This puts their discovery of Gunpowder somewhere around turn 160, possibly as early as turn 158.

We are 4 turns from Astronomy. With tourism bonuses going up for both the Colossus and the Mausoleum in three turns, we will have a maximum of 69 base commerce. Taking Cop's into account, we can then research Banking in 8 turns followed by P.Press in 6 (or vice versa), a total of 18 turns. That, of course, means we will have both after turn 158. Hmm...

Here's what I think we should do: After Astronomy, go for Banking, then Printing Press. When we get the Press, trade for Gunpowder. If it isn't available, set science to 0% until it is. If my estimate is right, this should not be more than 2 or 3 turns. Once we have Gunpowder, we are on our way to ToG and Newton's.

Also, it occurred to me today that we can harvest the forests that have been planted on the unused grasslands. I would now like to plant forests on the other two as well. We can use all 4 of our workers (including the one we intend to build after Cops's) to simultaneously harvest those forests when we build a bank. Take this into account when timing a prebuild for the bank. It will probably be best to finish the bank the turn after we get Banking, rather than on the same turn.

Edit:

The Roster
Mathias
Mach
dl123654
Renata is at the helm
ChuckDizzle is next in line
Khan_Asparuh

Renata, don't worry if you cannot get this in tonight.

More Edit: Get RoP with Theology trades.

 

[Renata]

Renata, don't worry if you cannot get this in tonight.

I didn't. This was me last night. But then this morning I and now am back to my usual perky self. I'll play this evening.

PS: Why ROP? Just because we can?

Renata

 

[Mach]

Well, RoP probably reduces the chance they'll attack us...but that's just a guess.

 

[Mathias]

It's all about attitudes. RoP comes with a very nice attitude modifier, and we like for the AI to be gracious. Later in the game, I would like to include RoP in our lux trades. Sure, it will cost us more gold per turn, but we will have little else to do with the gold the AI gives us for our technology.

 

[Renata]

preturn 250 AD: Crank research to 90%, astronomy in 4. Sell theology, with ROP's all around , pick up Invention, Chivalry and a small amount of cash.

IT: Russians start Sistine and KT. Zulu start Sistine. Sumeria starts Sistine. Egypt starts Sistine.

(1) 260 AD: Start forest on wines.

IT: Inca join the Sistine parade.

(2) 270 AD: Snooze.

IT: Japan starts KT.

(3) 280 AD: Science to 80%.

(4) 290 AD: Astronomy-Banking @ 90%. Currently 12 turns. Workers start forest on wheat. Cop's in 2 with no shield wastage.

IT: Inca start Leo's.

(5) 300 AD: Yawn.

IT:

Copernicus built. Worker next. Sumeria starts Leo's. Sumeria completes Knights Templer.

(6) 310 AD: Shiny. Working max commerce, we're at 186 beakers per turn. Banking now in 7 turns.

IT: Worker-hmm, dunno. Mongols start Sistine.

(7) 320 AD: Agree with Mathias about building the bank the turn after banking comes in, because the biggest pre-build we have is a colosseum. Hence it will be two turns of wealth first. Workers head off to make another forest. Timing's going to be a smidge tricky here.

IT: Russia declares on the Inca.

(8) 330 AD: Yawn.

IT: Japan founds Hakodate to our southwest, pushes our borders.

(9) 340 AD: Banking in 4, colosseum in 5, or so it now reads.

IT: A single Japanese archer enters our territory west of the mountain; I think they're just heading to Hakodate.

(10) 350 AD: Cleo will offer a little gpt for Chivalry, so I make that trade. Education monopoly is still in place. Start three forest chops.

IT: Inca want an alliance against the Russians; I tell them thanks but no thanks. Mongols start Leo's.

(11) 360 AD: Science down to 70%.

IT: Japan starts Sistine.

(12) 370 AD: Gunpowder! Zulus have the monopoly. Whoo, they want a lot for it. Education and all our gold, essentially. Of course, I could get it back by selling them astronomy or banking. Will wait until banking comes in next turn, anyway, to see if anyone else gets it.

IT: Japanese archer leaves our territory. Banking-gunpowder, although that'll change. Egypt starts Leo's.

(13) 380 AD: Bank completes in 3 turns. Or not. Our research is really quite nice; we could do gunpowder ourselves in 7 if we had to. But we don't. I hate trading for monopoly techs straight up, I really do, but going this route gets us to ToG and Newtons the fastest. With Russia at war, I can't count on them getting gunpowder fast enough for us not to waste a bunch of turns. So I'll pull the trigger. Education and 607g to the Zulu for gunpowder. Trade them banking for our money back plus a bit. Trade education for a little cash here and there, and give gunpowder to Egypt. Chemistry in 9 at 90%, minor deficit.

IT: Bank completes with a single-shield overrun, onto wealth we go.

(14) 390 AD: Irrigate a tile. I put us on positive fp to fill the food box again.

(15) 400 AD: Irrigate another tile.

Chemistry is in 7 turns; Physics and ToG should take ten each. We can build Newton's in 15 or 16, so assuming we have a suitable pre-build left to use at that point, we have ten or eleven turns left until we need to start building. I'd suggest we stay on wealth until the foodbox is full (9 more turns), then get out one more worker before starting the prebuild.

Should we gift everyone up to astronomy and gunpowder in the hopes one or more of them will get to one of the wonder techs in time for us to use it as a safer prebuild than Sistine/Leo's? I would say yes -- the only rationale for holding off that I can think of is that we may have a slightly higher chance of being able to trade for saltpeter if we can actually trade on the same turn that the other civs on our continent get gunpowder. But with two of the civs at war with each other, the odds of somebody having an extra to give us seem pretty good. (Edit: Maybe do it in five turns when our ROPs run out to save us the cash on renewal?)

I disbanded three units in there somewhere; forgot to mention it. If anyone wants to spend the cash, the archers could be upgraded; I didn't bother. So far so good!

Save below.

Renata

 

[Mathias]

Wow, I did not expect Zulu to have Gunpowder before we had Banking. All that work on Plan B, then Plan A ends up working for us. It's all good.

We don't need to upgrade our archers. We don't even need to keep them around. No barb threat means no need for barb defense.

Newton's in 16 turns at 25 spt. I'm not sure what options we will have for prebuild.

I would like an investigation of Zimbabwe (180g) and Ur (182g) before we continue. These two are most likely to build Leo's and Sistine. My best guess is that the Zulu might finish Leo's in as little as 10 or 12 turns, or they may need 20 or more to complete it. Similarly, I have no idea how long it will take Sumeria to build either wonder in Ur. If there is a chance that they will end the cascade before Bach's becomes available, I don't want to push anyone to open any other options.

 

[Renata]

We can actually get to 27spt for quite a while, provided we start with food in the box and work a forest in lieu of the last non-bonus grass. So we could get Newton's in 15 turns if we really want to.

I'm trying to figure out whether or not investigating the wonder cities will do any good. We have 27 turns to ToG, and at most 17 before we have to be on an actual wonder prebuild, since our largest available building is only 120 shields. (Would re-building the temple (again) help at all? That'd give us a 160-shield cathedral as prebuild -- meh, only one turn gained.) That's not a lot of time in which to outwait a Sistine/Leo cascade, gift the appropriate techs, *and* wait for a new wonder tech to come in.

What would you do if you investigated and found out Sistine and Leo's were 5 turns away? 10? 15? 20? Just trying to figure out how the intelligence would help us plan.

Renata

 

[Mach]

Hm. All off the top of my head here...

I'm also wondering why we should investigate those cities. If I understand correctly, the question is: will the cascade fall before Bach's becomes available? If so, then we're set, since the Bach's build should last the next 27 turns. If it doesn't, then we have no good prebuild, since when the cascade does fall it might take out Bach's too. Investigating those cities will give us half the equation: when the cascade will fall. But we can have no idea when Music will be discovered. So why then spend the money investigating?

Another idea, possibly a bad one but I'll throw it out there, is to self-research econ after chem is done. It'll delay our Newton build by the time of the econ research, but it should guarantee us a good prebuild (as we still have the Banking monopoly). Also it'll double our wealth production, a nice aside. We'll be able to comfortably build doublewealth until it's time to start the prebuild, so there'll be no chance we'll lose any shields on a cascade collapse.

Guessing that econ will take 10 turns to research, we'll have Newton in 27 + 10 = 37 turns. Trying to build Newton without a good prebuild will take just as long, maybe a few turns longer.

 

[Renata]

Actually the Zulus have banking; I traded it to them to get our cash back from buying Gunpowder. Music Theory seems a more likely next tech for them than Economics, though, as it's cheaper.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that everyone on our continent is still working on Gunpowder -- or just now starting to work on Gunpowder, if they were researching Education when I gave that to them.

On the other continent, I only gave Gunpowder to Egypt (Sumeria lacks it and is probably researching it; Mongols are backwards and also lack Chivalry). So besides the Zulus, Egypt is the only real candidate to be working on a wonder tech *right now*, IMO, although I suppose it's possible one or two went for Music Theory before gunpowder.

Renata

 

[Mach]

Oh, ok, banking duopoly then. I think we can just keep going for now, since we have time. Finish chem, then take stock. If there haven't been any new developments, start on physics, and when it's done take stock again. If at any point it looks like we won't have a decent prebuild, maybe start econ.

By the way, just to say it out loud, forest chops can't go to wonders, correct? So if we have to prebuild with a colosseum for awhile then we should avoid chops, because if one succeeds we won't be allowed to switch to the wonder.

 

[Mathias]

You're right. I'm not sure what I was thinking this morning. Knowing when Leo's and Sistine will be built won't help us much. What we need to know is when the third city would finish Bach's if it is is available to that civ before the completion of Leo's and Sistine. Obviously, we cannot get this sort of information, so we will just have to guess...

Guess what? I'm willing to bet that the only civs likely to have Music Theory withing the next 20 turns are Zulu and Sumeria, and that neither of them would be able to finish Bach's before we have ToG. If Leo's and Sistine aren't both complete within 20 turns, then I doubt that much more that Bach's will be done in less than 27.

So let's just continue through the next turnset assuming that Bach's will be good. Chemistry to Physics. Start prebuild with 6 turns remaining on Physics.

 

[ChuckDizzle]

I've got it. I'll read and play tomorrow afternoon. I'd do it tonight, but the party's already started.

 

[ChuckDizzle]

Here are the turns:

Turn 1-410ad: Nobody's discovered anything new. I move the workers to irrigate the square NW of where they are now.

Turn 2-420ad: I convene and smoke the peace pipe with each of the world leaders. They must have been chiefing a lot lately, because they've got nothing new to offer. I move the workers two squares SE to forrest the the tile there. To be honest, I don't really know what to do with them, other than forrest unworked tiles. I may send them out later to forrest tiles on our borders, as a slow down for cavalry.

Turn 3-430ad: Nothing new.

Turn 4-440ad: Check with leaders...our Rop has one turn left. I guess next turn I'll do a little haggling to get them back.

turn 5-450ad: Workers finish forrest. Move workers to forrest square south of london. Chem in two turns...but I can't kick science back any. I trade Astronomy to Russia for ROP and 12 gpt. Same to Zulu for 7gpt and 60 gold and ROP. I give Astronomy to Japan for ROP. I give Gun Powder to Sumeria for ROP, and Education to Cleo for the same. Finally, I give the Inca Gun Powder for 18 gold and an ROP. I could have given them Education, but because russian dominence of our continent would be unfavorable, I tried to keep the balance of power.

Turn 6-460ad: Chem in one, set research back to 80% +31gpt. Nothing to trade with anybody.

Turn 7-470ad: We get Chem, begin researching physics. Physics will come to us in 10 turns.

turn 8-480ad: Nobody has anything new. I send an archer to take advantage of the ROPs and explore our continent. Better than him just sitting there.

Turn 9-490ad: Workers start planting a forrest two squares west of london.
IBT: Japanese begin Leo's

Turn 10-500ad: Nothing.

Turn 11-510ad: 6 turns till physics. I start pre-building with Sistine chapel @ 25spt.

Turn 12-520ad: I realize that I made a mistake several turns back and forrested a BG. I move workers to correct that.

Turn 13-530ad: The workers clear the forrest.

Turn 14-540ad: Rebuilding mine. Sorry about that. Nobody has anything worth trading for, yet. Physics in 3 turns. I can kick science back to 70% and +44gpt.

Turn 15-550ad: Physics in two turns. No trades to be had this turn.

Save and Screenshot are below.

 

[Mach]

Looks good 'n solid, Chuck. Prebuild looks spot on. How many workers we got? I see we got a full food bin, so I guess you didn't squeeze out another one. Off the cuff, I think we'll max out at size 20, which works every tile, with 0fpt and 30spt. Maybe there's a slightly better configuration, but my point is we're gonna want something like 8 workers by the time we can grow again...

Will we get Newton? I'm on the edge of my seat here...

<slips off seat, bruising tailbone... >

 

[Renata]

I'm sure we'll get Newton's. No one's even got chemistry yet other than us, and all those lovely wonder techs are out there that the AIs love so much. Only question is the prebuild, and whether or not we'll wind up building it the turn after ToG or ten turns after.

(Sorry about your tailbone. Sounds painful.)

Still no sign of a harbor, Chuck? Unreal.

Renata

 

[Mach]

True; it's the cascade that's got my glutes in a knot. But I'm a worrier.

(No sweat, I heal quick. Nuttin' a little won't fix. )

Edit: Hey, is it ok we puchase workers now? (Note that it's ok to merge slaves into our city, since it's our capital and we can't have flip chances...)