Math01 - My first SG: OCC Space Race

[Mathias]

No Music Theory?? Damn. Get ready to turn our prebuild into an overpriced granary (not colosseum).
Do we not like the Mongols or something? Why no ROP?
With one citizen on the coast, we can get ToG in 9 turns, thanks to increased tourism.
Egypt has a harbor, as if that makes a difference.

Off the cuff, I think we'll max out at size 20, which works every tile, with 0fpt and 30spt.

Actually, we will max out at size 21, with 0fpt and 44spt.

 

[Renata]

And one specialist to assign to whatever.

Edit: Hey, is it ok we puchase workers now? (Note that it's ok to merge slaves into our city, since it's our capital and we can't have flip chances...)

True enough, but still not a good idea to merge foreigners, IMO -- they'll be peeved at us if we wind up at war with that civ. We'll be in rough enough shape if we get declared on without having to deal with dissenters in our midst.

Foreign workers might be useful to help with pollution cleaning: keeping a dozen natives around would eat up cash rapidly. We could buy them off of whichever eligible civs seem strongest at the time.

Renata

 

[Mach]

Actually, we will max out at size 21, with 0fpt and 44spt.

Yep, I see it. Didn't account for railroads.

Foreign workers might be useful to help with pollution cleaning: keeping a dozen natives around would eat up cash rapidly. We could buy them off of whichever eligible civs seem strongest at the time.

Cool and thanks, that was what I was thinking. Good point about the WW, I hadn't thought of that, although I think we'd survive it, as long as we didn't merge too many. Don't foreign citizens change nationality after awhile?

Also it occurred to me to let a bunch of food build in our granary before merging our last worker to get to 0fpt, so we would be free to run a food deficit in the future. But I'm thinking pretty far ahead here...

 

[Mathias]

I guess I don't care if we buy foreign workers, if that's what you want to do. I have never bought workers myself - for some reason it just doesn't feel right. I feel like we are exploiting a flawed game mechanic. We get them for next to nothing, and never pay anywhere near their true value over the course of the game. Maybe I'm just being irrational. I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Even with a dozen native workers to clean up pollution, and 30+gpt spent on imported luxuries, we will rarely have a deficit. If the AI has gpt available, we can get it. Trust me, gold will not be an issue.

We don't need to have a bunch of workers to join our city and jump our population to size 20. Even without railroads, we can have +15fpt and grow every other turn from 14 up. I can't say my way is better, because I haven't done it any other way.

 

[Mach]

Trust me, gold will not be an issue.

Sorry, if you're responding to my aside, I must not have been clear. I was talking about a food deficit. For instance, pulling a citizen off the ocean to be a civil engineer for a few turns. Sometimes, the couple shields we get from that could make a difference. I'm not saying it's something we'd do often; but a bunch of food in the bin gives us the option, just another way to squeak a bit more out of our city.

we can have +15fpt

Yup, we can. But every turn doing that is a bit of shield waste, not to mention the time spent recovering from that state (with all the mining we'd have to do). So this worker thing is another way to squeak out a bit more. Is it worth buying workers for gold? No. But if we can get some along with our tech deals...

 

[Mathias]

Gold not being an issue: I was responding to Renata's concern about the cost of supporting an army or workers.

We most certainly need to have food stored. Every time pollution pops up, we will lose the food from the polluted tile.

Shield output isn't much of a concern when we are building wealth. I don't think building workers to merge back into our city is going to save us much time. We can either spend 16 turns building Worker-Wealth-Worker-Wealth while we sit at size 12, then merge those 8 workers back into the city, or we can spend 16 turns growing naturally from size 12 to size 20. It should be very clear as to which of these options will net us the most commerce. More commerce means faster research. We should focus on what is most important.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

OK. I'll play it tonight. Sorry for not really participating in the discussions, but I 'm a bit weakened by all the calculations you guys (and dear lady) do; I've never went that far. But I follow each turnset and learn. My OCC were never so profond.
Just to recapitulate. Try to avoid losing the prebuild due to Sistine build, eventually get an insurance with Music Theory, and finish Newton. Looks perfect. I've no doubt that Newton is ours, btw. And reiterate my settler builds proposal for population stockage... This can be dealt with if we MM London well.
Anything else?

 

[Mach]

We can either spend 16 turns building Worker-Wealth-Worker-Wealth while we sit at size 12, then merge those 8 workers back into the city, or we can spend 16 turns growing naturally from size 12 to size 20.

Well, yes and no. I think if Chuck had gotten a worker out before starting our current prebuild, we'd have 5 workers already, so we'd be only 3 short, and I think we'd have time to skim off more in the future. I'm certainly not talking about churning out workers at any point; you're right, we'd be better off just growing naturally. I'm talking about using workers to store food that's going to waste as we go along. Every turn spent at positive fpt at size 12 with a full food bin is wasted food.

But this conversation's gotten a bit academic; I can't see far enough ahead to calculate if we could get out enough. It's probably past time for us to actually pursue this, since we've spent so much time mm'd at 0fpt. If I were to play this game over, I wouldn't have forested our tiles to get to 25spt. Instead, I would have kept a small positive fpt most of the time, and skimmed out workers when the bin got full, so by the time we built our hospital we'd have plenty of workers around. In effect we'd have done our growing to size 20 throughout the game, saving us time.

@Khan -- No settlers. They drop our city 2 sizes, which we don't want because it would lose us commerce. Building a worker with a full food bin only loses us 1 citizen for 1 turn, since we'd grow back to size 12 immediately.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Math1 550 AD
(0)
Noone to trade with.
(1)
Start foresting our borders.
Zulus know Banking now (did they before?). Research down 10%, Physics in 1 turn.
(2)
Physics – ToG in 10 at max science (201 bpt). With 150 shields in the box this means “Big screen”. Still no harbors.
(IBT) Zimbabwe builds Leo’s. Ur finishes Sistines.
(3)
Zulus know Navigation. Their only wonder build is in Zimbabwe, which is not coastal, so this gives double interest to this tech. I decide to buy it on monopol. Chemistry to Zululand for Navigation, 49g and 33gpt. Magelan in 9 turns in London.
Trade routes are open now to Egypt and Mongolia. Education for Dyes, Ivory and WM to Mongolia. Banking for Furs, Iron and WM to Egypt. Trade for the world map knowledge and cash, but am unable to lower lux. We need one more lux to do it. Can’t upgrade units neither.
(IBT) Mongolia declares on Egypt.
(4)
The situation is fine, we’re the only civ building wonders.
(5)
Our WM is enough to empty the AI treasuries.
(6)
Not much.
(7)
Tech and wonder due in 5 turns.
(8)
I’m embarrassed of all those smiling leaderheads.
(9)
Stop smiling like idiots, build some harbours!
(10)
Incans raze a nearby Russian city.
(IBT) RoP end. Japan declares on Russia too. Do we want to keep the world in peace or will research ourselves? I think its late to change this now, we’ll have to research.
(11)
The AIs are broke. I don’t renew the RoP, chemistry or navigation at 3d is too much for this. Do it if you want to.
(12)
Smooth sailing gives us ToG and Newtons:

London set on worker. Magnetism due in 7 turns at 90% and 292 bpt. A temple or another lux would have allowed us to go full science and get it in 6 No ai harbours in sight. We can get the tech in 7 at 80% too but I still hope for lux and 6 turns.
(13)
London worker – rax.
Stupid AI didn’t hear my “Harbours!” call.
(IBT) Inca and Russia sign peace.
(14)
Same old.
(IBT) Mongolia advances against Egypt, we lose our Iron/Furs supply…
(15)
At least now we can trade for Mongolia’s extra furs and Zulu’s extra gems. We can get both for 7gpt. I leave it to the next leader.

 

[Mathias]

Navigation! Hell yeah!! Just in time, too.
Newton's in 660 AD!! My earliest OCC launch had Newtons in 940 AD...

Physics – ToG in 10 at max science (201 bpt).

Max science was actually 204 bpt (still with 25 spt) with one citizen on coast. We could have researched ToG in 9 turns, but I'm not complaining: Newton's in 660 AD!!

we'd have 5 workers already, so we'd be only 3 short

If we merge the workers we now have, we wouldn't have any to clean pollution. I want a full crew before any pollution occurs.

We have two options for science. I calculated research times at 100% science, and included tourism increases within the next 25 turns.

Option 1 (Sanitation)
Magnetism: 4 turns to go
Metallurgy: 6 turns
Medicine: 8 turns
Sanitation: 7 turns
Steam Power: 9 turns

Summary:
Growth beyond size 12 in 25 turns, potential access to coal in 34 turns.

Option 2 (Free Artistry)
Magnetism: 4 turns to go
Printing Press: 4 turns
Democracy: 6 turns
Free Artistry: 4 turns
Metallurgy: 5 turns (or trade for it)
Steam Power: 9 turns

Summary:
Growth beyond size 12 in 18 turns (not really, see below), potential access to coal in 32 turns, less if we can trade for Metallurgy.

I'm in favor of going for Free Artistry. Shake's costs 450 shields, so we don't have a full prebuild in Magellan's. Damn, I just realized I counted that with 3 citizens on coast. We need two of them back on the BGs for 25 spt. Democracy would still take only 6 turns, but FA would take 5. So then, 3 turns to build a granary and 16 turns prebuild with MV should work.

We don't need the archers. I will disband them unless someone can give me a good enough reason to keep them around. Before you post, I'll just say that the AI is more likely to see them as a threat than a deterrent. The best way to avoid war is to keep the AI happy and not give them a reason to declare.

 

[Renata]

Excited much, Mathias? That's very cool, though, truly. Yay for the Zulus! Nice set of turns, Khan. (Funny, too.)

Here's a thought on the Shakespeare's route*: how much will Democracy be worth if we get it as a monopoly and are able to retain the monopoly through our acquisition of metallurgy? (My guess is we should have a halfway decent chance at accomplishing that if we don't trade printing press, given all the wars breaking out.) The reason I ask is: there are still two scientific civs out there. If we boost them into the industrial era, are the tech values anywhere near close enough for us to be able to trade for steam or medicine, assuming someone gets one of them?

That possibility aside, the pros and cons of going for Shakespeare's as I see them:

Pros
-- one tech skipped (sanitation)
-- slightly (about two turns) faster growth and rails (if we have the resources)
-- probably an earlier factory (ind. after steam?) by the same ~ 2 turns
-- better happiness
-- no hospital build
-- no hospital maintenance

Cons
-- three extra techs to research now
-- the turns listed above don't include electricity, so electicity will be later, therefore scientific method will be later, etcetera

Anything else, or any corrections? I feel like I'm missing something.

Renata

 

[Mach]

Do we have to worry about the culture of Shakes? I don't think so, I'm just mentioning it. Also, is there any reason for us to revolt to demo if we get it? I don't think so about that one either, just askin'.

I like Shakes, because of the happiness bonus.

If we merge the workers we now have, we wouldn't have any to clean pollution.

Which is why we'd buy slaves, but I'm done on this topic, we're on a path now.

 

[Mathias]

We don't have to worry about the culture of Shake's. The 8 cpt we get from Shake's will mostly be offset by not building 7 cpt worth of improvements. You can add this to the pros of Shakespeare's. Also note that sanitation is a very low priority tech for the AI. By not researching it ourselves, AI hospitals will be delayed, thus slowing down the AI's overall pace. You can add this to the cons.

I am confused by your con concerning electricity. I assume you meant the turns don't include medicine, the lack of which would delay sci method. Electricity requires only steam power, not medicine. Besides that, I usually go for industrialization before electricity. If we are unable to trade for medicine by the time we get electricity, we can always go for RP or Corp first. Delayed ToE is not a bad thing - it is rarely challenged. If it were at all possible, I'd delay it until the modern times.

Democracy would really only save us about 10 gpt in unit support costs. This certainly isn't worth the possibility of 6 or 7 turns of anarchy.

 

[Mach]

If it were at all possible, I'd delay it until the modern times.

Yes, I completely agree. I watched this technique used to great effect in the latest RBC Epic. We should delay it as long as we are comfortable no one else will grab it.

 

[Methos]

lurker comment:Just curious why you have all the workers working outside your city radius? I'm assuming this is just to keep them busy?

My apologies for intruding.

 

[Mathias]

You are correct, there is nothing else for them to do right now. We need the roads, but I'm not sure why we are planting forests in territory that will eventually be within AI borders.

 

[Mach]

Well, it'll slow down enemy fast units, allowing us to use our roads to greater effect. But really, if we get to that point there's not much hope. (The forests look cool, though. Our hidden city...)

 

[Mathias]

the forests that end up in japan's territory won't slow japan down... it does look kinda cool... I don't care much for the look of the roads on top of the forests, though.

I got it now, will play and post in the morning.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Well that was the idea, slowing any invading force with forests.
Re ToG, I tried to find a good way to hurry the prebuild, especially as Renata had mentionned the 27spt starving, but forgot to try it for the tech. And actually thought that when we started the prebuild we had timed things to get 400 shields on the turn the tech is researched so I counted on this calculation. I really must check the editor's research prices.
Anyway, shakespeare will allow us to go 100% science and I definitely vote for this way. Democracy isn't really tempting, even with the 3 turns anarchy I foresee.
The AI isn't in the hurry to build culture in the cities on our borders so these lands will be ours for a while IMO.
Have fun Mathias
EDIT: Mach, I've just checked SGOTM teams, seems like we'll kick some Deity AI together

 

[Mathias]

The save

700 AD (0)
4 gpt to Zulu for Gems
4 gpt to Mongols for Furs
Lux 0%, Sci 80%
Change production to granary
Disband archers

710 AD (1)

720 AD (2)
IT: Granaray > Magellan's Voyage

730 AD (3)
Magnetism in 1, Sci 70%
IT: Magnetism > Printing Press

740 AD (4)
Sci 80%, P.Press in 4
Zulu have Physics. Active 33gpt ends in 4 turns, we'll have P.Press then, so I wait. No other civ has Chemistry yet.

750 AD (5)

760 AD (6)

770 AD (7)
P.Press in 1, Sci 70%
IT: P.Press > Democracy
Japan is building Bach's
Dyes and Ivory deal expires

780 AD (8)
Sci 100%, Demo in 6
Japan has chemistry, Zulu have music theory.
P.Press to Zulu for WM, 37gpt, 164g
P.Press + Mongol contact to Japan for MT, WM, 60g
Contacts to Mongols for Ivory, Dyes, WM, 6g
Trade maps/contacts with others for maps/gold
IT: Zulu building Bach's

790 AD (9)
Sci 90%
We are now connected via road to Inca/Russia.
Egypt contact + 3gpt to Russia for Incense
IT: Sumeria building Magellan's

800 AD (10)
IT: Russia-Japan peace

810 AD (11)
IT: Egypt wants alliance vs Mongols: Sorry!
Japan building Magellan's

820 AD (12)
Japan has joined the trade network via road to Russia.
5 gpt to Japan for Silks (they sold their 1 extra Spices to Inca)
Zulu have Magnetism

830 AD (13)
Demo in 1, Sci 80%
IT: Demo > FA

840 AD (14)
Sci 90%, FA in 5

850 AD (15)
Sci 80%, FA in 4

Shake's will be done in 6 turns. I actually played this last night, and since I'm not quite up to speed yet this morning, I'll post comments later.