Math02: 100K with limited cities

I think we need to "hog" the upper part of the tech tree to ourselves, securing sistine, Bachs, Copernicus, etc...I think the only thing we could gain by gifting the other civs would be Leonardo's Workshop, which is nice, but not nearly worth it, imo.
 
I don't think gifting techs will be of much use.
 
lurker's comment: You can move the capitol around to help spread out the culture and to generally lower your corruption. By placing it in the center of the empire, you can have virtually every city be a 1st ring city.
 
Inherited Turn
MM Seville. Fire the entertainer and put the city so production on Sistine is in 34 (3 turns earlier).
Decide everything else looks in order, so I hit that enter button.


270
IBT
Hittites declare on the Persians
Madrid: University->Worker. Madrid has finished all possible culture and I have heard nothing to the contrary so I am going to turn Madrid to worker production. If you guys think this a bad idea, merge them all back at a minimal loss of production.

280
IBT
Toledo: Colosseum->University

290
Shortrush Salamanca's Colosseum via a Marketplace. Due now in 3. With a Colosseum we will be able to drop taxes to 10%.
IBT
Music Theory->Astronomy, due in 11.
Our palace now has phalluses... phallusis? phalli? Spires! :crazyeye: Our palace now has spires.

310
Think better of things, and switch Toledo from its University to J.S. Bach's. Due in 40, but with its many hills currently being mined, it should actually be a lot sooner.
IBT
Salamanca: Colosseum->University
Americans and Koreans enter the Middle Ages

320
Sliders to 4.5.1
IBT
Barcelona: University->Palace, Pre-build for Copernicus. However, I believe we should consider trading for Feudalism and building Sun Tzu's here.
I gave our palace lawn some trees.
Koreans are buildilng Sun Tzu's.

350
That's about that. Santiago's Colosseum and Murcia's University are due to finish on the IBT. I probably should have focused less on optimizing size-12 cities and more on bringing Valencia up to speed, but as it was I did most of my work around Toledo. There is a worker SE of Santiago roading to the Gems. He'll be at that a while unless we want to divert one or two more to help him. All the new workers I've pumped out of Madrid have gone to Valencia, but it needs a lot of work. It has stalled in growth. The stack of four workers north of it will finish chopping in two; in the year 360AD make sure to move a citizen to work that tile so we get that extra food upon chop completion.

I just noticed -- next person should switch Valencia immediately to a Cathedral. The aquaduct will not be needed more many turns to come; we still have jungle to hack. A cathedral will (luckily) be completed with just 2 more shields. The additional culture cannot be denied! :P

I think we should trade Korea Mono for Feudalism and build Sun Tzu's in Barcelona. They are no risk to beat us to any wonder in the upper tier and they have started Sun Tzu's themselves.

Madrid's estimated 20k culture is in the year 2018. Pyramids should be doubling in culture soon. Estimated 100k is 2152, so we still have a ways to go. Barcelona's 20k is 2115 -- another reason why I believe they should make Sun Tzu's and save Copernicus for a lower-culture town.

Estimated culture in 2050AD (courtesy of SirPleb's culture calculator):

Madrid -- 21,776
Bracelona -- 17,211
Seville -- 8,287
Toledo -- 7,926
Santiago -- 6,455
Salamanca -- 7,804
Murcia -- 6,418
Valencia -- 3,987

A grand total of 79,864!
 
I'd suggest we quit building wonders in Madrid and Barcelona or we may screw ourselves. What about switching the Palace? It seems plausible since we don't want to build wonders in Madrid anymore (or I should say shouldn't). If we either moved it to a more central location or more central towards several corrupt cities that need or should build wonders it may be more of a benefit for us.

As an example if we build the Palace in Seville than Toledo, Murcia, and Santiago will all have a major decrease in corruption. (Hope I got those city names right, working from memory). Once those cities are built up we can always move the palace somewhere else, even back to Madrid.

From what I understand the palace does not have its culture double in 1000 years so we wouldn't be losing anything culture wise. This would also cause Madrid to drop a measly two culture points a turn.
 
Moving palace sounds good, but i'm not sure if it's worth 300 shields though. Maybe if we get a leader. BTW, we need some fighting for the Heroic Epic which gives lots of culture (4 cpt for only 200 shields). No more wonders in Madrid, i agree. Worker factory looks like a good decision to me.

I will only be able to play tomorrow evening, so if anybody wants to play now, we can swap.
 
Yes, the palace does receive double culture. It starts with 1cpt and doubles to 2cpt (why it takes 10 turns for your first border expansion at start of game).

I like moving the palace. Madrid is already way ahead. As soon as Seville has nothing else culture-wise to build, I think it should build the palace. And I agree that we should not build any more wonders in Madrid.

I still like the idea of Barcelona building Sun Tzu's. It's only 2cpt and would only bring Barcelona to ~18,500 culture at 2050. I was going to build a Barracks at Barcelona, but changed my mind and switched to palace as a pre-build for that reason. We'll also be able to sell our one or two barracks and save a little bit of gpt.

I'm going to add some spreadsheets based off of SirPleb's 20k Calculator. One for each city. Hope the tools help.
 

Attachments

lurker's comment: So do all buildings double culture after 1000 years, or just imps and palace? I think making this clear woould be relevant here.
 
Beorn-eL-Feared said:
So do all buildings double culture after 1000 years, or just imps and palace? I think making this clear woould be relevant here.
Click to expand...


As my understanding goes, all buildings that produce culture have their culture doubled after 1000 years. Palaces, improvements, wonders -- the whole lot.
 
At first, I thought dropping Madrid's population was a horrible idea. Then I looked compared the saves, and see that we are only 1 commerce less than we were 10 turns ago with 5 more citizens. So it isn't so bad, but I think it is best if we get it back up asap, running +5 fpt with fewer shields. Since Madrid is maxed out on culture, we should set it up to produce military, building workers just before food bin is full.

Why are we sitting on 400+ gold? Either rush something or research faster.

I agree, palace move to Seville sounds good, but by the time this is done, in about 50 turns, the benefit may be deminished. We'll consider it after two turnsets.

What are those Korean archers up to?
 
Gotta disagree with you Mathias. Those workers are desperately needed to clear jungle for Valencia and to optimize size 12 cities. Even our productive towns of Madrid and Barcelona are currently working unroaded, sometimes completely unimproved tiles -- that is why we are only down one commerce from the save before. I would say one more turn-set of straight workers for Madrid at minimum. Ideally I would say to pick up a dozen more workers to clear jungle -- one jungle tile takes 24 worker-turns to clear -- afterwards we will be able to merge a good amount into Madrid and Valencia to bring those towns back up to max.
 
We now have 21 workers, and we need to do a better job prioritizing their tasks. Hill near Murcia, mountain near Seville, and hills near Barcelona are low-priority. Those four workers could be helping to clear the jungle around Valencia. Four workers near Toledo will be done there in 8 to 10 turns. We are not so desperate that we need to run our capital down to size 6 or less. Keep it at least size 8 to 10.
 
Nobody took the save before me, so i'll play it in a couple of hours. I agree that we should not decrease Madrid's population of course, when i talked about the WF, i meant building units and workers so that it stays at population 12. Should i switch to Sun Tzu's now as Pinicator said?
 
pre-turn:
- Switched Madrid to barracks to catch up in population.
- Univercities give more culture then colosseums, so we should build them first: i switched Santiago to Univercity and cash-rushed it. This will also speed up our research a bit, while colosseums still don't allow us to lower lux.
- I did not decide about Sun Tzu's yet, but we can switch to it at any time, cause Sun Tzu's, Bach's and SC all cost 600 shields. I think that the Templar is far better than ST, since it gives the same culture as ST for 300 shileds and is also much more usefull for us. But we can decide all this later.

360
- Santiago: Uni->Col
- Murcia: Uni->Col

370
- Valencia urgently needs either some watering or joining workers. Watering will take too much time, but we'll need it eventually, so that all those hill can be worked. I think i'll join some after the aqueduct completes and let workers clear the jungle in the direction of nearest irrigated tile (the banana one).

380
- Madrid: barracks->spear. I don't like spears, but a horse is very wastefull at 14 spt and there are no warriors nearby to disband. I sent our regular warriors to Madrid so that we can disband them and build 2 turn horses later.
- Persians discover Currency, enter MA and take Engineering as a free tech! Now maybe they'll trade Engineering and Feudalism around and the price will drop. Lets wait and see.

390
- Xerxes sold Engineering to Ragnar, just as i expected, but Ragnar had just discovered Mono and gave it to Xerxes! So, now it's time to trade: sell Mono to Korea for Feudalism, while they still don't know it (or it'll be too late), sell Feudalism to Xerxes for Engineering (he's the only one who doesn't know Feudalism except those backward civs. Now we have to build either ST or SC before AIs discover Theology to prevent cascading.
- Spear in Madrid autoswitched to pike, there is nothing i can do to prevent shields being wasted, so i switch it to a horse.
- The Vikings are apparently the most advanced and fast-researching civ: they are down only Theology, Education and MT. They can be a problem if they start on Theology, but they'll propably go for Invention because of their UU. But the Koreans may go for Theology now and cascade from Sun Tzu. They started it just recently, but still we have to be very carefull with Korea.

400
- We discover Astronomy, start Banking, moving towards Shake's
- Madrid: horse->horse, one regular warrio disbanded
- Maybe we can switch Toledo to Copernicus's and Salamanca to Bach's, cause Toledo has many river tiles (will have lots of commerce after being properly roaded) and we want higher culture/shield wonders built first. I don't think we have time for ST, it'd be better to just build SC before anybody learns Theology to prevent cascades.

410
- Valencia: duct->court, but can be switched to anything, cause it takes forever to build.

420
- Madrid: horse->horse, this time don't disband the warrior, cause the governor will propably autoplace next citizen on the forset tile.

430
- Hittites declare on Vikings. Some wars among the AIs are good to solw down the tech pace.

440
- Murcia employs a scientist and cannot grow untill the colosseum is built (3 turns left)

450
- Madrid horse->horse. We can MM Madrid to grow in 4 turns and get horsemen in 2 without disbanding warriors if we move citizens from one tile to another.


OK, so now it's time to decide which wonders to build and in which cities.
My suggestion:
Seville: SC, we need to build it in the fastest city to prevent cascades
Toledo: Copernicus, many river tiles, will finish it fast enough
Barselona: Bachs, not that many culture and we can afford it in Barselona, still Madrid gets 20k faster
Salamanca: prebuild for something?
 
No time to check it out right now, but I've got it, and will probably play tomorrow morning. I'll post comments later tonight.
 
With Madrid hitting 20k at 2018, at 2017 our culture will look like this (only counting completed city improvements):

Madrid -- 19,986
Barcelona -- 15,759
Seville -- 7,627
Toledo -- 7,266
Santiago -- 8,351
Salamanca -- 7,144
Murcia -- 8,314
Valencia -- 3,657

Total of: 78,104 culture in 2017AD

I think we are getting close. In fact, with the buildings currently under construction, we may be very close if not safely there. Of course, the sooner we can win the better. ;)

I wish Valencia would have been switched from Aquaduct to Cathedral on the Inherited Turn as I had suggested. The Aquaduct will not be needed still until the jungle can be cleared. Still may want to consider switching the Courthouse to a Cathedral -- Cathedral ties with Library for second highest Cpt/Shields of our buildings (the Temple, of course, is #1). However, with 35% Corruption the Courthouse will more than earn its keep over time as well.

Obormot, I think your suggestions for switching the wonders around are good; at least I can think of none better :p . Salamanca can do a pre-build for Knight's Templar or whatever else. I do think we should build Shakespeare's in the same town that build's Copernicus, just to help our research out.
 
Seville has the more river tiles and less corruption than Toledo. If we do move our palace to Seville, it makes even more sense to have Cop's there. It could have been completed just last turn, so switching now would have minimal waste.

We don't have to worry about cascades. We can complete both Sistine and Bach's in 17 turns, and let the AI eventually get Sun Tzu's and Leo's.

For culture value, Cop's will add about 2300 if it is built this turn. Sistine and Bachs, each complete in 17 turns, will each add a little more than 3100. Improvements currently being build will add a total of about 4500. All this for a total of about 13,000 would put us over 91,000 by 2017. Add in future culture, and I don't think we'll have a problem reaching 100K by 2000 AD.

I'd like another opinion on Cop's in Seville before I play.
 
- Seville is clearly the best place for a palace.
- Madrid and Salamanca need defenders soon to prevent a catastrophic Berserk attack.
- The Horses in Madrid should move to Seville.
- Seville or Madrid is best for Copernicus.
 
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