Math04: Another 100K

[namliaM]

-There is a worker switching the watered cow near Delhi to a mine. Delhi is currently at +1 food (wasted) and 24 spt. Once the watered-mine switch is finished we’ll be at zero growth and 25 spt. If we move the palace to Madras I’m unsure how this will change though.

25spt is nice... Does Delhi have a court yet?
If we get a court in Delhi and (see below) Shakes (8 content). Delhi will be in a perminant state of WLTKD, thus be at 0% waste.
Even more so if/when we get JSB somewhere (2 content). And the Temple, Cath, Col are good for 6 content. That is 16 content just from wonders and improvements... WLTKD easy!
Then we have HG for a while yet and possibly Sist. + Luxes + Market... WLTKD VERRY EASY!

-Other than worker production I’m finding Bombay is wasting space. I suggest we remove this city soon.

Nope... Keep it.
1) It works tiles that will not be used for a while
2) Workers = POP & Improved land. We can use the workers for now to mine them mountains and stuff. Once we get shakes up somewhere (Delhi?) we can join in some workers to get it to 20 or more NOW rather than later. With the colossus there its a nice bonus, instead of waiting hundred turns (or so)

IMO it was definitely worth it. I hope I didn’t screw things up.

I for one agree.

 

[nerovats]

Will play tomorrow.
We should monitor delhi, rules are adjusted to have 30k for single city, but that´s still doable. I agree on rushing the improvements. Culture above all.

 

[Methos]

Does Delhi have a court yet?

No, it does not. In truth I didn't even think about a courthouse. I agree though, it needs to be built while we still have the palace there.

Wasn't even thinking about using Bombay to provide 'growth' for other cities. Since we're on the subject of workers the last count I saw was 27 though I believe it's a couple more than that.

I'm not too worried about Delhi's culture. For now we keep watching Delhi's culture and when it starts approaching 25k we stop. Once the palace is moved we'll probably start upping the culture builds in other culture cities anyway.

 

[nerovats]

pre-trun
down science to 0 will keep it there for a couple of turns the up to get music still in 4.
70AD
MM a bit
get some money by selling techs to persia
90AD
nothing
110AD
MM a bit more
130AD
change worker builds to baracks, we have enough workers for now. Only bombay will keep building them.
rush uni in Lahore
150AD
Lahore uni->GL
AI still not prepared to give a lot for our techs.
170AD
Bangalore uni->colosseum
up science Music Theory in 4
190AD
join worker in Lahore
210AD
nothing
230AD
nothing
250AD
join another worker to Lahore
Learn Music Theory, set science to astronomy, at break even it'll take 8 turns.

Madras will grow next turn, MM to optimise shields then, since it won't grow any further.
Join 2 workers to Calcutta after the improved their land.
What to do with science? We should get shakespear, 8 culture and cheap, but it'll need a lot of useless research.
There are quite a lot of horses now so could attack someone, aztec or byzantine seem logical. We need to decrease our unit count and get more cities to save gold.
Do we want to sell our techs? I could only get 40 gold for theology, so decided not to trade.
We could delay research again to buy some improvements in Clacutta, FP is due in 3.
culture is up to 97pt, estimated win date 2293 (single city is down to 2086 already).

 

[namliaM]

IMO As long as we got the tech lead.... We can pick up the optionals to Shakes.
Personally would prefer to have shakes with Newt and Copes. Max pop ASAP with newt + Copes = max win!

Do we want KT?

Hope to get it this weekend....

 

[namliaM]

Ze Zave

Pre-Turn:
Short-rush a market in Bangalore (192g)
A lot of -single- workers working the mountains :shakehaed Pair workers up for "big" tasks.
Disband the reg warrior in Chittagong, Punjab and Hyberabad. Send the reg warior from Lahore to Punjab for disbanding
Send the Reg warrior SE of Halhapur to Kolhapur ... For disbanding

Send Vet Archer from Lahore to Hyder
Send 4 Horses from Kolhapur to Lahore
Send 2 horses from Calcutta to Hyder
Send horses from Jaipur and Karachi to Hyder
Sell Mono to Babylon for 2 Slaves + 5 gold

Why are the Tundra games not yet mined??? Send the Slaves there.

IT Inca demand Iron, I am looking for a war anyway. Might as well be Inca... Tell them NO
They chicken out! *sigh*

Widness some Persian fighting
Karachi Horse> Horse

1@260 Send new horse to Punjab

IT Bangalore Colloseum> Courthouse

2@270 Lower Sci to 30 for +60gpt

IT Aztec spear S of Punjab!
Bombay Worker> Worker
Calcutta FP> Market MM for food 4f/ 10spt

3@280 Ask Aztec spear to leave! They prommise to do so...
Rush Granary in Bangalore, Change to Market

IT Witness a bab bowman kill a persian Archer
Kolhapur Horse> Horse
Punjab Barracks> Duct

4@290 zzzz

IT Karrachi Horseman> Horse
Jaipur Barracks> Horseman
Aztec finish ToA

5@300 zzz

IT Bangalore Market> Barracks
Hyder Barracks> Horse
Great wall Goes to Byzantines (Constantinople)

6@310 Change Madras to JSB
Give Monarchy+7g for Aztec worker
Change Jaipur to Worker
Change Chitta to Market
Change Bombay to Settler
Up Sci to 40 for Astro in 4
DoW Aztecs
First attack on Traco Reveals atleast 2 Spears there.
Kill 'visiting spear' with archer
Kill 2 spears in Texcoco (Aztec Horse town) and raze it
Take 3 Slaves

IT Xerx demands Theo, He is far enough away. Dont give. He is chicken anyway!
Or actually It is fortunate for you that your PATHETIC civilization isn't worth destroying
China is quick to send a settler/Spear to replace Texcoco
Aztec counter = 1 horse attack. Which costs us 1 horseman.
Spot Aztec boat going N from Atzcapotzalco
Jaipur Worker> Horseman

7@320 Shortrush a horse in Bangalore
Take out Aztec Galley

IT
Bangalore Barracks> Horseman

8@330 Lose horse vs Archer out of Traco, Archer promotes
Kill Said Archer
Kill Jag Warrior out off Aztec Capitol
Sell Wines to China for 4gpt + 45g
Iron+Silks to Inca for Feud+Insence+5gpt+3g

Only Inca have Chivalry

Sacrifice the archer vs a spear.
Fleeing horse
Kill Spear> Promote horse
Fleeing horse

IT Kolhapur Horseman> Horseman
Palace Improve
Incan city of Cuzco gets Sistines !!!

9@340 Change Delhi to Tsu's (prebuild for copes?!)

IT Galley gets killed by 2nd Barb Galley
Astro> Banking (Can be changed before End of Turn!) Maybe go for Chivalry?
Chivalry in 4 (Good sell?), Banking in 7 both at 50% sci and +23gpt
Bombay Settler> Worker
Bangalore Horseman> Horse
Karachi Horse> Horse

10@350 zzzz

Do we want Sun Tzu's in Delhi or JS Bachs Both are due in 5 turns
Switching to Copes will waste 97 shields!

We can put Copes in Madras, due in 5 as well.

Great light is due in 5 as well.

We can sell.... Theo around now that we Lost sist.
I looked around and we can sell it only to the Byzantines, that will gain us 10gpt + 84g

IMPORTANT
Change bombay to a wonder for the chop to go to Karachi!
In the next turn Rush an Archer in Karachi, Switch back to Horse
Then another horse, which gets the chop!

5 more horses on the way within the next 3 turns

I think the red spots would make good new cities.

Delhi is at 33cpt and win-date 2086
Civ is at 101cpt and win-date 2264

 

[Methos]

@namliaM: You might want to recheck your save link. Checking the link shows you uploaded the 250 AD save.

Also, Calcutta needs to build culture quick. Due to the FP I didn't rush any culture builds there so it was behind a coliseum and university. Not for sure if it still is. I noticed in namliaM's post he mentioned Calcutta went from FP>Market.

 

[BigNHuge]

Apologize for screwing us up with Sistine's.

 

[Methos]

No biggie. We just need to remember when we attack that city that we have to raze it. After that we could build it than.

 

[Mathias]

That 2086 date for Delhi is when it will reach 20K... victory trigger is 30K

In Math02, we were at 127 cpt in 350 AD with 5288 total culture. In this game, we are falling further behind that pace, which lead us to victory in 1970. I don't necessarily want to concede this just yet, but would like to get a group opinion on this situation. Personally, even if we could win this one in the 2040s, I'm more inclined to start a new game and try to learn from mistakes in this game.

 

[Mathias]

No biggie. We just need to remember when we attack that city that we have to raze it. After that we could build it than.

If a city with a wonder is razed, the wonder is lost forever. It cannot be rebuilt.

 

[namliaM]

@namliaM: You might want to recheck your save link. Checking the link shows you uploaded the 250 AD save.

No it doesnt

Also, Calcutta needs to build culture quick. Due to the FP I didn't rush any culture builds there so it was behind a coliseum and university. Not for sure if it still is. I noticed in namliaM's post he mentioned Calcutta went from FP>Market.

Calcutta doesnt have them yet. Can be switched tho...

 

[namliaM]

That 2086 date for Delhi is when it will reach 20K... victory trigger is 30K

In Math02, we were at 127 cpt in 350 AD with 5288 total culture. In this game, we are falling further behind that pace, which lead us to victory in 1970. I don't necessarily want to concede this just yet, but would like to get a group opinion on this situation. Personally, even if we could win this one in the 2040s, I'm more inclined to start a new game and try to learn from mistakes in this game.

Hmz, Getting them smaller culture buildings (temples and such) faster would seem to be important...

 

[Methos]

@namliaM: You might want to recheck your save link. Checking the link shows you uploaded the 250 AD save.

No it doesnt

My mistake.

Hmz, Getting them smaller culture buildings (temples and such) faster would seem to be important...

Hence the reason I rushed so much culture.

@Mathias: You typically do most of the culture calculations by hand so what are the numbers looking like? How's it look when estimating any new culture buildings?

I hate to just end this due to us believing it's over. Especially so soon. I would suggest we play this out for a while longer to get a better feel of what all mistakes we made.

I agree with namliaM though, we waiting way too long to build culture. We should have had pre-builds read as soon as they came available. Just like with wonders.

 

[BigNHuge]

If we do just surrender this, which I am against, lets do a traditional 5CC with just the 5 cities. I dont think just because we missed out on the chapel we should quit.

 

[Methos]

If we do just surrender this, which I am against, lets do a traditional 5CC with just the 5 cities. I dont think just because we missed out on the chapel we should quit.

I believe the reason we chose not to do this was due to MATH02. In that game we did a 100k with an 8CC. Due to only having eight cities we had to go to war several times to back the AI's off of 1/2 our culture. Due to our razing of cities to back the opponents culture off it left open areas for the other AI's to expand. Than later we had to slow them down too. It was a delicate balance keeping the AI's even. Eventually I believe we just started laying into them.

I believe one of our problems in MATH02 was dealing with the AI's more than the culture. Getting 100k with eight cities was easy. Dealing with the AI's was the hard part.

With the variant in MATH04 it allows us to better keep track of AI expansion while still requiring us to pay attention on how we place cultural projects. In other to reach 100k with only five cities we have to get things in as early as possible.

 

[Mathias]

@Mathias: You typically do most of the culture calculations by hand so what are the numbers looking like? How's it look when estimating any new culture buildings?

OK, I just took a much closer look at the comparison to Math02. We are currently generating about 82% of the culture that Math02 was generating at 350 AD. I have estimated that we will increase from 104 cpt now to about 207 cpt in 1250 AD, about 81% of Math02 at that time. At the end of the game, Math02 was generating 380 cpt. I estimate that, with 5 cities instead of 8, we will max out at about 275 to 280 cpt. That is approximately 73% of Math02's max. I then found the average cpt from 350 AD to 1970 AD for Math02, which was 306.3 cpt. Guessing that we could average about 78% to 79% of that during the same time frame, I calculated our 1970 total culture for average 239 cpt and 242 cpt. This put our total culture between 78,400 and 79,300 with 80 turns to go. With our estimated max cpt, this puts our victory date somewhere between 2044 and 2049. If I have overestimated our 1970 culture by as little as 1%, then we would reach 100K no sooner than 2047AD. If we miss more than 4 cpt of new wonders, we will not reach 100K in time.

 

[Methos]

Sounds like it is possible to still win this. Just extremely challenging.

In order to win this I'd say max research and every cultural build (wonders and improvements) has to have prebuilds set up for them.

In truth after reading Mathias's post above I definitely want to continue this. The challenge makes the game even more exciting. I'm willing to go the distance.

 

[Methos]

Hmm, just remembered that chieftain game that did a 5cc 100k/20k win. I'm thinking we might want to look at that to see how they managed to get the necessary culture.

IMO, I believe we may have not spent enough time prepping this. I also believe we should skip unneccesary research time on techs that are not needed.

We might also want to wait on Shake's and get the other cultural techs first. Sounds like every turn counts.

 

[Mathias]

Oh.. I'm up, so I got it. I'll wait for more comments, and play tomorrow evening. I agree Econ and Nav before going on to FA.