Matt's Mormon Thread

[Eran of Arcadia]

Out of curiosity, I've noticed that the questions being asked here indicate a wide range of beliefs (or lack thereof). I'd like to know what everyone who has asked a question or posted actually believes, religiously speaking, if y'all don't mind.

 

[El_Machinae]

Sure: I'm a 'loose atheist'. I follow St. Anselm's argument that something MAY have created the universe, but I don't actually believe that this 'something' knows or cares about us one whit.

The reason why I'm 'loose' is because I can acknowledge that God might exist, but I act like he doesn't (that's my definition of faith: whether you act on it or not).

I was raised protestant, and I took a couple University-level courses regarding religion. It wasn't until after my philosophy courses that I was able to vocalize why I don't believe in God's existence.

 

[Quasar1011]

That's a great definition. It's also exactly what we believe! That is the Gospel for us and has been, ever since the beginning. Christ came to earth, suffered and died for our sins, and was resurrected; because of this we can return to God.

See, you just added something to the gospel message, that is not there in the Bible. You said, "because of this we can return to God." Return? You mean, you were somewhere before you were here on Earth? Please explain.
Include a commentary on this:

Doctrine And Covenants 9:29
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Of course, the Book of Abraham 3:22 in the Pearl of Great Price, indicates that Abraham pre-existed before his birth, as do all humans. The Bible does not teach this. Only Jesus Christ pre-existed before birth, according to the Bible.

So is the Mormon Jesus a man who achieved godhood? Do Mormons aspire to attain godhood someday themselves?

 

[El_Machinae]

He could be referring to Mankind's state that existed during the Garden.

 

[downtown]

See, you just added something to the gospel message, that is not there in the Bible. You said, "because of this we can return to God." Return? You mean, you were somewhere before you were here on Earth? Please explain.
Include a commentary on this:

Doctrine And Covenants 9:29
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Of course, the Book of Abraham 3:22 in the Pearl of Great Price, indicates that Abraham pre-existed before his birth, as do all humans. The Bible does not teach this. Only Jesus Christ pre-existed before birth, according to the Bible.

So is the Mormon Jesus a man who achieved godhood? Do Mormons aspire to attain godhood someday themselves?

sure, mormons believe that we pre-exsisted. its talked about in the old testement (i cna look up where...i knew you before you were in the womb..something like that). our souls exsisted before we came to earth, its how God knows us. We came here to get bodies, and to learn and grow, so that we might return to him.

I dont believe that Jesus was a "special man" or something. Jesus would be a special case. Not much is really written about the docterine of exaltation.

 

[ironduck]

Thanks, El_Machinae. It's true that we don't actually know too much about how the Bible actually came about (who wrote it and when) and what we think we know actually is open to controversy, but that just proves my second point anyways.

That's why I'm puzzled that mormons (as seen in this thread) aren't puzzled about all the very suspicious stuff regarding the gold plates of Joseph Smith which I have referred to earlier. If you can question the bible surely you can question and be sceptical of Joseph Smith and his gold plates, no?

 

[Quasar1011]

Doctrine And Covenants
Book Of Abraham, 9:22-26

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

This passage departs from traditional Biblical teaching. It goes beyond Christian thought that God knows us in the womb, and has a plan for each and everyone of us. The passage quite clearly says that Abraham was one of the intelligences that existed before the world was created. One of those intelligences (possibly Jesus, the text does not say, though it does say "like unto god") says "we" will go down and make an earth, to see if the intelligences will keep their first estate. Obviously, if Abraham was a human intelligence that existed as a human before earth was created, then the text speaks not of angels, but other humans.

Do you believe you existed with God as an intelligence, before earth was created?

 

[ironduck]

Going from what Quasar posted, that makes the concept of 'free will' even less plausible. If Abraham and all those other guys are already planned to go down to earth and do their thing before Adam and Eve have been placed, then where is the free will of Adam and Eve eating the apple? Not to speak of the free will of all other humans to come, anyway.

Of course, the bible has the same problem, it's just even more obvious here.

 

[GenMarshall]

Out of curiosity, I've noticed that the questions being asked here indicate a wide range of beliefs (or lack thereof). I'd like to know what everyone who has asked a question or posted actually believes, religiously speaking, if y'all don't mind.

Im a Non-Denominational Christian with influences and agreements with the Roman Catholic Church. The reason I say I am a Non-Denominational Christian is due to the fact that I have no denomination to call home though I am more closer to Catholism (Though I never have gotten First Communion nor Confurmation), plus I have no church to call home eather. Hope thats enough to answer your question .

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Quasar: Show me in the Bible where it says, explicitly, that we didn't exist in some form before coming to Earth. Earlier you said that we were adding to the Gospel. Now you are saying, in essence, that because we have doctrine stemming from the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, that this is adding to the Gospel. But like I said before, the Gospel is that Christ died and lived again for us. To paraphrase Joseph Smith (as I don't have the exact quote handy), "The Gospel is that Christ lived, died for our sins, and rose again on the third day, and everything else is an appendage to this." Of course we have other doctrine. Every Christian church has doctrine not found in the Bible, or at least not explicitly spelled out.

@ironduck: first of all, we believe in the doctrine of foreordination, meaning that God selects some people (eg Abraham, from the Pearl of Great Price quote) based on what they accomplished and what their abilities were before this mortal life. However, they still have their free will. They are basically put into a position to be called as prophets or whatever, but if they refuse the call or live sinful lives than God won't call them. Second, we know that there are problems with the Bible as we have it, because we know the process by which it came about. Also, there is a wide range of possible truth values of the Bible from completely true to no more true than any mythological record from any preliterate group, with a lot in between. The Book of Mormon is pretty much either true or not. I know that there are 'anomalies' or 'irregularities' in the Book of Mormon, and I know that there is a possibility that it is not what it claims to be, but based on my reading of it and based on personal religious experiences that I have had, I believe it to be true.

@El_Machinae and CivGeneral: thanks for sharing. Whenever I discuss religion I like to know the POV of those with whom I am talking, because it makes it easier to explain things based on what the listener already thinks. As a missionary I often asked people what they believed, and although I think a lot of them assumed that I wanted to know how to 'prove them wrong', really I have just found that I can explain things differently based on how others view thibgs. Plus I am naturally curious when it comes to religion.

 

[ironduck]

@ironduck: first of all, we believe in the doctrine of foreordination, meaning that God selects some people (eg Abraham, from the Pearl of Great Price quote) based on what they accomplished and what their abilities were before this mortal life.

How many lives do people go through? It sounds like a long cycle of reincarnation. Is this an adaption of samsara?

 

[El_Machinae]

Alternatively, are there an infinite number of 'original souls'? Are these questions related to why Mormons are known for having large families?

 

[ironduck]

If there's an infinite number of souls out there I hope they're not all waiting to be planted in bodies. That would mean an infinite wait for some of them, assuming there will only be a finite amount of bodies (which seems plausible unless there are an infinite amount of universes).

 

[El_Machinae]

OTOH, there could be a set number that, once reached, could signal the end of the world. I don't know what their beliefs are.

 

[ironduck]

Unless someone fiddles with the universe and starts it all up again?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

We don't believe in reincarnation but in different phases of life. We began as spirits without bodies in the premortal life, then got bodies and came to earth (in our parlance, soul=spirit+body) and then when we die we will go to a place based on how we lived our lives here. Except for the premortal part, this is pretty much what other Christians believe. As far as running out of space, this universe may be finite, but there could be an essentially infinite number of universes - but speculation on my part.

None of this has to do with why we have large families, which is more a cultural thing (we are encouraged to have large families and believe it is the most important calling in life, but it isn't required and despite what some think, birth control is not prohibited.)

 

[ironduck]

But why are some spirits selected to be put into specific positions, like Abraham? What do they do while they're spirits to give them that special status? And how many spirits are there, an infinte or a finite amount? And are they all put into bodies at some point?

Also, what about fetuses that die before they are born? And what about babies that die just after they are born? Have they got a spirit inserted into them from the outside as well? And if so, why did they get such a raw deal? Do they get a second chance of getting a body?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

We believe that we grew and learned and gained knowledge before we were born, and those who showed the most growth are put into positions where they may receive specific callings later in life (eg Abraham). I imagine that there are a finite number of spirits, and all those who want to will receive bodies at some point. As it happens, we consider it highly likely that there is intelligent life on other planets as much as earth.

As far as those who die shortly after their soul receives a body, ie fetuses and infants, what exactly happens to them we do not know. (I think a church authority specifically said that's something we don't know yet). Whether that could be considered a 'raw deal' I'm not sure - the point of our mortal lives is to prepare us for the next life, so in any event they will receive the necessary preparation, in some form.

 

[ironduck]

I don't understand that. If the point of the mortal life is to prepare us for the next life, how does being put into a fetus that never makes it outside the womb prepare the spirit for the next life?

And what kind of knowledge is it exactly we need to learn on earth to prepare us for the next life?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

To your first question, I don't know. We never claim to have all knowledge, but God, being much much smarter than any of us, has a much better understanding of the process even if He doesn't explain all of the parts to us.

And to your second, I guess for the most part 'experience' is a better word than 'knowledge'. We could only progress so far without a body and all the additional experiences that come with that, so we were given bodies and put on earth. Here we sometimes experience suffering, which enables us to better appreciate happiness (that is a simplified version of LDS theodicy - why God allows suffering) and in a process that I don't entirely understand, it makes us smarter as well.