Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
The History of the Church is supposedly written by Joseph Smith and B.H. Roberts.
Matt's Mormon Thread
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Yes, with help from others. My point is that I would like you to show me where in History of the Church it says that Joseph Smith made that prophesy, and more importantly, if it does say it, that Joseph put it in and it wasn't an error perpetuated by BH Roberts. Especially considering that after 1835 (but before 1891, when he would have been proven wrong) he spoke ambiguously on the subject (see D&C 130).
I see I was mistaken - you did not get the reference from 'History of the Church' at all, but from the Institute of Religious Research, a site that purports to 'investigate the claims of competing religions' but strikes me as rather biased (in the sense that they make several claims about the church that I know to be false, including the old 'Mormons believe in earning salvation through works').
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I verified it with my own copy. I cited page numbers. What more do you want?
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them biased.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them biased.
No, disagreeing with me does not make someone biased. Claiming that a church teaches something that they do not teach, and misrepresenting other teachings, is questionable at best. I guess I will have to take your word that HoC says that Joseph made that prophesy, but that doesn't mean he did. (Interestingly, if they kept putting it in after 1891 either they though it invalidated the church or they though the quote was questionable).
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
The Lord is almighty, all knowing, all powerful, He is the beginning and the end. Nothing happens with Him knowing about it. If He said there was treasure and Smith was a true prophet, there would have been treasure. IF Patten was to have mission, then the Lord would have kept him alive. Look at what happened to Job. The Lord gave him a mission (go to Nineveh) and he ran away, eventually threw himself into the sea only to be swallowed by a "Large fish" and coughed up on the seashore.Eran of Arcadia said:
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
The History of the Church is a document by Mormons, for Mormons. I googled B.H. Roberts. Here is line from a review of Robert's autobiography: "For many today, B. H. Roberts is the quintessential Mormon intellectual of the twentieth century." (http://www.signaturebooks.com/autobiog.htm)Eran of Arcadia said:
The Lord told Jonah to tell Ninevah that it would be overthrown, yet it wasn't - not for another 100 or so years. The Lord, all-knowing that He is, knew that Ninevah would repent, but Jonah's message doesn't mention that. Jonah was expecting it to fall and had to be shown by God why it wasn't. False prophesy? Or was the prophesy conditional to begin with?
Yes, History of the Church is all you say it is - written by Mormons for Mormons, by one of the great scholars of our time. It does not claim to be prophesy, it is not canonized, and it is not expected to be free of error.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Eran of Arcadia said:
You are absolutely correct! Jonah it was.I have always taken Jonah's words as threat. If you don't repent, then this city is toast. So they repented, and they were spared. You be the judge:Jonah 3:1-10
Yeah, like I said, Jonah just said the city would be destroyed in 40 days, and didn't mention repentance at all. The idea of repenting, in the hope that God would turn away His wrath, was the Ninevites'. Also, the part you quote says 'God changed his mind'; what do you make of that?
Now, I believe that it was God's intent from the get-go to spare the Ninevites on condition of repentance - otherwise why bother warning them - but Jonah didn't seem to realize this, and the prophesy he gave doesn't mention it, and is thus a 'false prophesy' in the sense you seem to be using.
Now, I believe that it was God's intent from the get-go to spare the Ninevites on condition of repentance - otherwise why bother warning them - but Jonah didn't seem to realize this, and the prophesy he gave doesn't mention it, and is thus a 'false prophesy' in the sense you seem to be using.
Merzbow
Disrecognized Space
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Sir Bugsy said:
Response:
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai125.html
Aside from these technical details, what do you think of Mormon theology? To me, it seems to make more sense than what whitebread Christianity teaches. For example, being saved by faith plus works, rejection of the somewhat ridiculous concept of Original Sin, different 'gradations' of heaven so that good non-Christians/Mormons aren't condemned to hell, etc.
As far as 'evaluating' a religion, I've thought a bit about this and can perhaps suggest a sort of checklist to go by:
1. Are the religion's scriptures obvious forgeries, or was the founder(s) obviously insincere (i.e. L. Ron Hubbard)? If so, reject.
2. Do the scriptures and key tenets of the religion advocate manifestly harmful practices and/or philosophies (i.e. Satanism)? If so, reject.
3. Do the modern-day adherents of the religion appear brainwashed, abused, isolated, and abnormal (i.e. take your pick of cults like the Branch Davidians, etc.)? If so, reject.
4. And most importantly, after reading the scriptures, have you developed a faith in their truth?
So let's evaluate Mormonism according to these criteria:
1. We've discussed this. Joseph Smith and Mormonism are clearly over the bar here (you don't have to agree with the apologetics on, say, the FAIR LDS site to admit this, you just have to agree they are reasonable apologetics).
2. Obviously not to anyone who has read the Book of Mormon.
3. On average, clearly not. The typical Mormon is a scarily well-adjusted member of society.
Mormons do not cut themselves off from society, they are not encouraged to give all their money to the Church (10% != all), they are not racist, in short, Mormonism simply doesn't satisfy the criteria of a cult.4. This is of course a personal question unique to every individual.
Merzbow actually sums up some of the issues we have been discussing pretty well. Whether one can accept the tenets of Mormonism is a very individual question, and I certainly can understand those who don't, but they are plausible, as much as any religion.
Newawd
Chieftain
This was posted earlier:
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . "
I can understand why Joseph Smith would feel pretty strongly about this, as in Missouri (the state I currently live in) it was not illegal to kill a Mormon. Oh, and if you *did* kill a Mormon, you were entitled to his property. Nice.
I was wondering if anyone was aware of the fact that several years ago an official declaration of apology was made by the government. I'm really sorry that I can't give a reference, but I'm fairly certain that if anyone wants to do a little googling they can find the actual quotes.
@Sir Bugsy: I'm a little saddened by the fact that recently you have gone from asking questions in honest curiosity to a clear and obvious attempt to 'disprove' my faith. It's amazing that you can be so black and white critical of a different religion while the beliefs of your own religion have some (IMHO) unresolved issues: You state that our works are irrelevant. In the bible it tells us that Faith without Works are dead and useless. Now, I could go online and find websites that nit-pick your church (there are many people out there who dedicate themselves to tearing things down, instead of building things up), but I don't subscribe to that kind of behavior. <Sigh...> I guess in your heart you feel that you are just trying to protect people from the "Evils of Mormanism" though, so you can just keep at it as your conscience demands.
My dad is not a member of the LDS church. He was excommunicated when I was in my late teens for cheating on my mom, and then having a flippant attitude about it. In an effort to prove that he was right, and that the LDS church was wrong, he went on an Anti-LDS crusade. He presented me with all sorts of pamphlets and booklets (all of which he picked up from other churches) that 'proved' that the LDS church was a fraud. Being a rebellious teen (hehe, that's a redundant statement) I did my research. I found that every single claim that I read had a counterpoint. I actually spent months in research. After all my research I decided for myself that no matter how hard I tried, or how many claims I read on either side, there really was no way to 'prove' one side or the other. I was at a loss.
I determined to do exactly what Joseph Smith had done. See, what started this whole thing was the fact that there were so many churches, and they were often at each others throats. He studied the bible a lot, and couldn't figure out which church he should join. In his own words, he said "While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." I thought to myself, "Self, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, then at least the bible is still good. I should just pray about it." Self agreed with me completely.
I also remembered that in the Book of Mormon, the following statement was made in the last chapter of the book:
"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."
I figured that I had nothing to lose, so I tested the promise: I asked God. I didn't get my answer the first time I dropped on my knees, but within the next couple weeks I *did* get my answer. The rest is history.
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . "
I can understand why Joseph Smith would feel pretty strongly about this, as in Missouri (the state I currently live in) it was not illegal to kill a Mormon. Oh, and if you *did* kill a Mormon, you were entitled to his property. Nice.
I was wondering if anyone was aware of the fact that several years ago an official declaration of apology was made by the government. I'm really sorry that I can't give a reference, but I'm fairly certain that if anyone wants to do a little googling they can find the actual quotes.
@Sir Bugsy: I'm a little saddened by the fact that recently you have gone from asking questions in honest curiosity to a clear and obvious attempt to 'disprove' my faith. It's amazing that you can be so black and white critical of a different religion while the beliefs of your own religion have some (IMHO) unresolved issues: You state that our works are irrelevant. In the bible it tells us that Faith without Works are dead and useless. Now, I could go online and find websites that nit-pick your church (there are many people out there who dedicate themselves to tearing things down, instead of building things up), but I don't subscribe to that kind of behavior. <Sigh...> I guess in your heart you feel that you are just trying to protect people from the "Evils of Mormanism" though, so you can just keep at it as your conscience demands.
My dad is not a member of the LDS church. He was excommunicated when I was in my late teens for cheating on my mom, and then having a flippant attitude about it. In an effort to prove that he was right, and that the LDS church was wrong, he went on an Anti-LDS crusade. He presented me with all sorts of pamphlets and booklets (all of which he picked up from other churches) that 'proved' that the LDS church was a fraud. Being a rebellious teen (hehe, that's a redundant statement) I did my research. I found that every single claim that I read had a counterpoint. I actually spent months in research. After all my research I decided for myself that no matter how hard I tried, or how many claims I read on either side, there really was no way to 'prove' one side or the other. I was at a loss.
I determined to do exactly what Joseph Smith had done. See, what started this whole thing was the fact that there were so many churches, and they were often at each others throats. He studied the bible a lot, and couldn't figure out which church he should join. In his own words, he said "While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." I thought to myself, "Self, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, then at least the bible is still good. I should just pray about it." Self agreed with me completely.
I also remembered that in the Book of Mormon, the following statement was made in the last chapter of the book:"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."
I figured that I had nothing to lose, so I tested the promise: I asked God. I didn't get my answer the first time I dropped on my knees, but within the next couple weeks I *did* get my answer. The rest is history.
Newawd
Chieftain
@Sir Bugsy: You claimed "Point #1 - Moses actually showed the Israelites his tablets. They placed them in the Ark of the Covenent and they had them until Israel was conquered by Babylon. Then they disappeared. Thousands of people actually saw them. No one other than Joseph Smith has ever seen the golden plates."
I beg to differ with you on that point. 11 people (besides Joseph himself) that we know of saw and handled the plates. Here are their words (short read, and worth the 2 minutes):
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/eghtwtns
I beg to differ with you on that point. 11 people (besides Joseph himself) that we know of saw and handled the plates. Here are their words (short read, and worth the 2 minutes):
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/eghtwtns
Israelite9191
You should be reading
@Merzbow- It seems to me that your "checklist" is very judemental of religions. On numbers 1-3 fanatical "anti-cult" people could basically say that any and all religions are wrong. Also, number 4 is very personal and indiviualised, so unless this checklist is meant for people to decide themselves what religions seem acceptable to follow, this is not an appropriate question. Personally, the only religions that I would consider "rejectable outright" for their practices are those that the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance consider "doomesday cults." Here is the link to their site, ReligiousTolerance.org. http://www.religioustolerance.org/
Sir Bugsy said:
I'm a mostly impartial observer. I think that section reads as a commandment, and not a prophesy. Commandments can be violated all the time, that doesn't mean that God is wrong.
I'd recommend finding another solid prophecy that didn't work out. I think that Eran is honest enough that he won't twist things too much, though he'll feel tempted to twist unclear prophecies a bit.
That whole "don't worry about your debts" thing leapt out at me.
@El_Machinae: Yes, to be honest, if something is unclear I will tend to go with the interpretation that favors what I already think, but everyone does that, and at least I realize that it doesn't constitute proof. What do you mean by 'don't worry about your debts'? As far as I can tell, it just means that the Lord is telling Joespeh not to be stressed out, as eventually a way will be given.
@Newawd: How do you feel about your father leaving the church? My mother and a number of my siblings left the church when I was a teenager, which led me, as well, to a more in-depth study of my faith. Like you, I realized that the historical/scrptural evidence was not going to settle it, so I prayed. The answer that I received is why I am still Mormon.
@Newawd: How do you feel about your father leaving the church? My mother and a number of my siblings left the church when I was a teenager, which led me, as well, to a more in-depth study of my faith. Like you, I realized that the historical/scrptural evidence was not going to settle it, so I prayed. The answer that I received is why I am still Mormon.
Newawd
Chieftain
I eventually realized that his leaving the church was all about pride (his own) and that it had nothing to do with the veracity of the church. In retrospect this is even more clear to me. I mean c'mon, it's human nature to try to justify one's actions. You can't expect a guy who's up to his eyeballs in adultry to be making sound spiritual decisions. He had done something very wrong. He had consequences. His response? "Everyone is wrong but me." We have a great relationship now, and he's remarried (and faithful to his new wife). His period of Anti-Mormon preaching was only for a few years (all this happened over 10 years ago), and then it was water under the bridge.
Oh, and just for the record, even when my parents were not getting along... they slept in the same bed.
Oh, and just for the record, even when my parents were not getting along... they slept in the same bed.
Is he still out of the church though? The case of my mother was a little different because although she's never tried to preach against the church to me, she is still a little 'cool' to some aspects of my faith - she wasn't thrilled that I withdrew from Notre Dame to go on a mission, for example. What's hardest for me is that, because my parents were sealed (when I was 5 months old, so I was there) and my parents are still together, it's a little hard on my dad. But we get along well, and now we are fairly supportive of each others' beliefs.
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