[NFP] Maya First Look

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

Personally I don't really know why anyone cares how 'good' they are, as long as they're interesting to play. Take Norway: universally considered garbage but great fun to play, on a watery map at least.

Hard to say with the Mayans. They will feel different to the other civs but I'm not sure how much difference there will be between Maya games, it might have to be the same strategy every time. Having said that, if you enjoy the compact district / city puzzle and adjacency porn then they could be a lot of fun. I think they will suit my pacifist style because they will be hard to conquer.

We shall see!

 

[IvoryPavane]

Personally I don't really know why anyone cares how 'good' they are, as long as they're interesting to play. Take Norway: universally considered garbage but great fun to play, on a watery map at least.

Hard to say with the Mayans. They will feel different to the other civs but I'm not sure how much difference there will be between Maya games, it might have to be the same strategy every time. Having said that, if you enjoy the compact district / city puzzle and adjacency porn then they could be a lot of fun. I think they will suit my pacifist style because they will be hard to conquer.

We shall see!

For what it’s worth, I think Norway are great! And surprisingly strong with their pillaging changes!

Additionally, I also think that Civs who have a unique campus *should* have some additional complexity or barriers to overcome in the earlier eras. I cannot over state the power of science and hammers, and having a bonus to them in one district.

I wish we could a bit more of that to Korea! It would make the Civ both less dull and less dominant

 

[lotrmith]

The -15% penalty is not that bad IMO as long as you settle your first 9-10 cities inside the cap's 6 tile radius.

Excepting cross-sea land masses ignoring the 4-tile restriction for city placement, isn't the max 12, under absolute perfect conditions?

 

[Zaarin]

Civ5 Maya design was one of the most interesting in the game. Tying usually purely flavour calendar dates with bonus great people was so creative (and it required rush to Theology sobit wasn't mindless), while Pyramids really opened new playstyle. Even Atlatl, one of the weakest unique units in the game, was unique by being instant no tech archer.

They were fun to play. They were also somewhat obnoxiously stereotyped. Slightly more forgivable with the "2012" nonsense looming on the horizon at the time; less so now.

Also, Pacal with with background was an incredible leader screen.

An incredibly fantastic leader screen. Civ5 Pacal could give Civ6 Montezuma a run for his money in the "most absurdly ahistorical costume" category. (To be clear, Monty still wins that contest--but not by much.)

 

[bengalryan9]

Personally I don't really know why anyone cares how 'good' they are, as long as they're interesting to play. Take Norway: universally considered garbage but great fun to play, on a watery map at least.

Hard to say with the Mayans. They will feel different to the other civs but I'm not sure how much difference there will be between Maya games, it might have to be the same strategy every time. Having said that, if you enjoy the compact district / city puzzle and adjacency porn then they could be a lot of fun. I think they will suit my pacifist style because they will be hard to conquer.

We shall see!

Norway considered garbage? Maybe in the hands of the AI...

 

[KayAU]

Personally I don't really know why anyone cares how 'good' they are, as long as they're interesting to play. Take Norway: universally considered garbage but great fun to play, on a watery map at least.

I think this was true earlier, Norway was considered a low-to-bottom tier civ which many still found fun to play. They have been buffed directly and indirectly, and are now considered rather strong. The main changes have been:

• Leader Ability upgraded by adding a production bonus for Naval Melee units
• Leader Ability upgraded again by making Norway get better yields from pillaging than anybody else
• Berserker stats improved, cost reduced, required tech Military tactics no longer a leaf node, Land Melee promotion tree improved by adding mobility. It is still not a great unit, but it is better than it was. The one thing missing for it to be really good, is the ability to upgrade into it.
• Coastal cities, Great Admirals and the Harbor district being significantly buffed in Gathering Storm

Norway has a good Unique Unit (Viking Longship) and one of the best Leader Abilities in the game. The other abilities are just mildly beneficial, but I think it is fair to say that Norway is probably A- or B-tier overall now.

Anyway, getting back on topic: I don't see anyone going crazy about the Maya. Many of us are finding their abilities interesting, and their power level is likely to be at least decent, probably pretty good. I find it very unlikely that a Civ with a half-prize Campus and a strong Archer replacement is going to be very weak. I do acknowledge that they might have some challenges with early game tempo due to limited housing in the beginning, but I think these challenges can be overcome, and that the cost of doing o so will be surpassed by the benefits they reap later on.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I just want to break against the dominant opinion and express my slight disappointement with this Maya design.


Civ5 Maya design was one of the most interesting in the game. Tying usually purely flavour calendar dates with bonus great people was so creative

True. Now that I think about it.. Might this have been the single most creative/well balanced ability in all of Civ V? I certainly think so, Maya were one of my favorites

Civ VI has some really bad leader bonuses, but also some incredibly ones. I think Kupe might be their most ingenious design, and it's also heavily thematic like the Maya in Civ V.

The -15% penalty is not that bad IMO as long as you settle your first 9-10 cities inside the cap's 6 tile radius.

I feel like that is almost impossible. settling maybe 5 or 6 can work if you have no close neighbors, but 10 cities in 6 tile range of your cap? is that even mathematically possible?

 

[blackcatatonic]

Civ5 Pacal could give Civ6 Montezuma a run for his money in the "most absurdly ahistorical costume" category. (To be clear, Monty still wins that contest--but not by much.)

12th-century Frederick Barbarossa and his 15th-century set of full plate armour say hi.

 

[Zaarin]

12th-century Frederick Barbarossa and his 15th-century set of full plate armour say hi.

That's an anachronism, not fantasy. Plate armor is a thing that existed, even if not in Frederick's time. The feathery nonsense Monty and Pacal are wearing look like they come from a cabaret; they're certainly not anything that any historical person ever wore at any time.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

This + a UU that makes them virtually impervious to early invasion after you get Archery.

The Mayans have the tools to obtain an empire - the downside is that they'll have to build it themselves, as opposed to conquer enemy civs, which is quicker. C-tier on deity, possibly B-tier on a reasonable difficulty level such as King would be my guess.

It really depends on what measure you rate them by imho.

The Maya might be an S-tier Civ in terms of winning Deity simply due to their UU. As long as you fend off early aggression you win with pretty much any vanilla Civ unless you let the game get past t300.

They will also probably be very strong in Multiplayer, where you don't get to settle as much and the UU and Campus is even more important.

The Maya might be a low tier Civ in terms of fastest possible win times, since those are almost always achieved with 20+ cities. That doesn't matter for a majority of the player base, and it might not even be the case simply because half cost Campus is very impactful. I suspect however they will be one of the worse Civs in this regard. They could be above average or genuinely worse than vanilla. It depends a lot on how much adjacency you will be getting on your campi regularly and how bad the housing and wide penalties will actually play out. As they are on paper currently, they look pretty bad for optimal play.

Norway considered garbage? Maybe in the hands of the AI...

They don't get any bonuses towards any VC besides domination, and then their bonuses are almost completely restricted to naval units. They're a great civ for warfare water maps, but outside of that one specific thing they don't have any tangible bonuses. A strong bonus is one that is always present and relevant for all VC, like Rome's instant monument or Greece's extra Wildcard slot.

It's not that I dislike Norway, and other "weaker" Civs, or that I don't play them, the bad thing design-wise is that those Civs feel completely vanilla outside of very specific niches. I don't see why Norway couldn't have a general bonus towards ocean tiles, or settling coast, or pillaging. Those things also help with other VCs. And you can do them almost every game. Most of my games, enemies do not even have capitals/cities that are on coast, even when they start coastal.. I have often built lots of Longships only to discover that there was no shore, either on Pangea or Contintents, to raid. Norways bonus only kicks in when the map allows it and the starts align, really.

I don't think Norway is bad at what it does, in fact it is the best Civ at what it does, which is early naval domination. But that is very one-dimensional. The best Civ designs, imho, have been those that aren't highly specific and allow for a high amount of creativity. Civ 5 Maya is the perfect example. But Civ 6 Kupe is also amazing, so many different strategies, a nice balance between maluses and bonuses, and lots of creative freedom.

 

[DWilson]

One advantage they get in multiplayer is the fact that their cities will be mostly garbage if conquered, while also harder to conquer. (If you target them, you have to deal with stronger archers and a combat bonus in their territory, and will likely get cities with terrible housing and poorly placed campuses. And that's if you can conquer quickly enough to push through the loyalty wall of large and close cities). The best chance to get a fair shot (assuming you aren't way ahead in tech or have overwhelming military forces) is probably an early rush where they haven't done much, and to overcome their UU and fighting boost, you probably want a good ancient UU of your own.

In single player, the AI would get a mild security benefit as I'd be tempted to look elsewhere (assuming the AI even makes half use of their abilities).

 

[KayAU]

I feel like that is almost impossible. settling maybe 5 or 6 can work if you have no close neighbors, but 10 cities in 6 tile range of your cap? is that even mathematically possible?

Mathematically, the maximum you could pack would be 12 cities in addition to your capital, as shown here. Of course, that is not something you could realistically do very often in practice. I personally intend to aim for 5-6 cities, which should not be too hard to do.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Mathematically, the maximum you could pack would be 12 cities in addition to your capital, as shown here. Of course, that is not something you could realistically do very often in practice. I personally intend to aim for 5-6 cities, which should not be too hard to do.

I think realistically the most you'll be fitting is 7 or 8, with mountains, neighbors, unfavorable terrain and all.. and even then you're kind of suffocating your cities out of tiles. I think your suggestion is probably best. The way I will play the Maya is that I'll aim for 5-6 cities in the 6-tile radius and then just settle a bunch more after ancestral halls and just ignore their malus

they seem to lend themselves nicely to a faith oriented science victories with double monumentality.

 

[kryat]

Another take: internal trade routes will be great for the Maya. You get gold off your farms anyway, you’ll have spare housing from farms for the food in internal trade routes, and you wouldn’t complain at production from unworked tiles.

 

[Brutus2]

First thing to do after settling your capital... open the map tacks and mark your city locations.

Maya might also save gold on not having to buy many tiles with all the city overlap.

 

[bengalryan9]

They don't get any bonuses towards any VC besides domination, and then their bonuses are almost completely restricted to naval units. They're a great civ for warfare water maps, but outside of that one specific thing they don't have any tangible bonuses. A strong bonus is one that is always present and relevant for all VC, like Rome's instant monument or Greece's extra Wildcard slot.

Not to get off topic here but I think you are really selling Norway short. You can produce tons of extra science and culture from pillaging on water or on land, which scales with era and can be boosted with policy cards. It's adds up to a lot, and while both Rome and Greece have good bonuses Norway's is a heck of a lot more fun to use IMO.

Anyways, about those Maya...

 

[Thormodr]

Norway is super fun to play. Raiding can give massive yields.

I suspect the Maya will be fun to play, too.

 

[bbbt]

I don't think Norway is bad at what it does, in fact it is the best Civ at what it does, which is early naval domination.

That was vanilla Norway. With the patches that made pillaging scale with era and left Norway as the only Civ getting science/culture from pillaging improvements, current Norway can pillage their way thru the tech tree (not that you'd know this from the AI playing Norway of course).

 

[leandrombraz]

Not to get off topic here but I think you are really selling Norway short. You can produce tons of extra science and culture from pillaging on water or on land, which scales with era and can be boosted with policy cards. It's adds up to a lot, and while both Rome and Greece have good bonuses Norway's is a heck of a lot more fun to use IMO.

Anyways, about those Maya...

Not to mention all the faith you get pillaging, which combo quite well with Theocracy+Grand Master's Chapel. When I played as Norway, I used it to update a considerably large force of Berserkers to armies, which kept them relevant for longer, and I was able to open another front, all armies, most bought with faith. The Stave Church is also quite decent now that lumber mills are viable. For me, Norway is a pretty strong faith based Domination Civ, that can also do quite well in a Religious, Scientific and Diplomatic victory. Crossing oceans earlier is specially beneficial for Diplomacy, which is a victory that doesn't shy away from war, despite the name, so Norway can still pillage at its heart's content. They might not be the best Civ out there, but it's far from garbage and it's definitely fun to play..

 

[DWilson]

They don't get any bonuses towards any VC besides domination, and then their bonuses are almost completely restricted to naval units. They're a great civ for warfare water maps, but outside of that one specific thing they don't have any tangible bonuses. A strong bonus is one that is always present and relevant for all VC, like Rome's instant monument or Greece's extra Wildcard slot.

It's not that I dislike Norway, and other "weaker" Civs, or that I don't play them, the bad thing design-wise is that those Civs feel completely vanilla outside of very specific niches. I don't see why Norway couldn't have a general bonus towards ocean tiles, or settling coast, or pillaging. Those things also help with other VCs. And you can do them almost every game. Most of my games, enemies do not even have capitals/cities that are on coast, even when they start coastal.. I have often built lots of Longships only to discover that there was no shore, either on Pangea or Contintents, to raid. Norways bonus only kicks in when the map allows it and the starts align, really.

I don't think Norway is bad at what it does, in fact it is the best Civ at what it does, which is early naval domination. But that is very one-dimensional. The best Civ designs, imho, have been those that aren't highly specific and allow for a high amount of creativity. Civ 5 Maya is the perfect example. But Civ 6 Kupe is also amazing, so many different strategies, a nice balance between maluses and bonuses, and lots of creative freedom.

Just checking, are you aware they nerfed pillaging for all civs to be mainly gold and healing, and now Norway is the only civ that can pillage Science and Culture (and they generate quite a lot when doing so)?